Talk:Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera
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[edit] Father of Jesus?
What is the source for these allegations?Bjones 01:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Celsus, quoted in Origenes "Contra Celsum":
when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera.
"Contra Celsum" quote: http://duke.usask.ca/~niallm/252/Celstop.htm
The link between Celsus' Panthera and Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera was made in "La vita di Gesu" by Marcello Craveri (1966)
source: http://members.fortunecity.de/bingium/grabstein.html Collegavanerik 21:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
A discussion about Celsus' jewish source of the Panthera story can be found in the Ben Pandera and Ben Stada lemma: Celsus seems to have combined the biographies of Yeshu ben Pandera and Jesus of Nazareth. Even more is discussed on the Yeshu talk page Collegavanerik 21:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Collegavanerik 23:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC) I've put this section here:
This connection does not take into account any of the traditional dates for the birth of Jesus nor does it account for the fact the Yeshu was a common Jewish name in jewry and could refer to any person by that name.
- The reason is that the citizenship of Abdes after 25 years of service during Emperor Tiberius (19-37) gives a match with adolescence in Syria, and a coincidence with Jesus' birth in 4 BC. The second part is not really adding extra information.
[edit] Cleanup
This article needs to explain the identification between this Pantera and Jesus' supposed father. Surely it's not just because the names are similar?--Cúchullain t/c 01:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I stated in the article that the Jesus connection is alledged, that Celsus is the source of the Pantera story, that Craveri first made the connection between the Bingen Pantera and the Celsus Pantera. Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera is a suspect who fits the Celsus profile: A roman soldier who was an young adult in Palestina in 4 BC.
That's it, a suspect, nothing more, nothing less. Collegavanerik 20:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jesus' Parents, new developments
Actually, this clue on the tombstone that points to a "father" of Jesus, is perhaps THE most important breakthrough regarding an effort to reclaim a truer understanding of the historical circumstances Jesus Christ. I refer to a book by Tony Bushby called The Bible Fraud, an unfortunate title but understandable. Though it is obviously impossible to completely verify all the claims, Bushby has made an exhaustive effort at digging up old, obscure and hard to access texts to bring more light to this story of Jesus. As Elaine Pagels points out, there have been many efforts on the part of the Roman Catholic authorities to steer the packaging of Christianity to suit its needs to secure a non-threatening centralized religious system.
I highly recommend Bushby's book and would recommend that Wikopedia include a reference to this book in the index to the article.
I must say that the alleged facts that Bushby presents seem so outrageous that his findings are taking along time to take hold. Another way of looking at it is that this is an indication of just how much the Roman Church has put a spin on the original story. It is helpful to keep in mind that the Roman authorities engaged in massive campaigns to bury and burn any references to the historicity of this Jesus figure.
Here is an overview of Bushby's thesis and I am just going to mention the highlights here. Tiberius Panther who was a Roman Centurion soldier who served in Germany during the time indicated on the tombstone, was the son of Livia who married Augustus Caesar. Tiberius had an elicit affair or forced himself onto Mariamne III (see Wikopedia), the daughter of Aristobulus IV and Berenice, the son of Herod the Great. Mariamne Herod lost her father and was raised as Roman/Herodian Royalty, spending time in Caesar’s palace in Rome along with her sister Herodias, mother of John the Baptist. Upon getting pregnant at age 15 (?), Mariamne took a leave of absence and went to an Essene community to give birth to her twins, known historically eventually as Judas of Galilee and Rabbi Jesus.
Judas Thomas, or Didymus, the twin, as a young man who was raised by the Essenes at a time of messianic furvor, used his claim to the Roman throne to be a torchbearer for the Jewish Nazarean rebellion in Jerusalem, to rid the city and the temple of Roman occupation. Judas was eventually captured and crucified except that a substitute was crucified in his place (though the body was revived with the help of Joseph of Arimathea). Judas survived and later fled in exile to the East, where he became known more commonly as St. Thomas in the Gnostic gospels. Judas' son, Simon Kochbah was the historical figure who led the uprising in later days of the Second Temple in Jerusalem who was crucified. Make note that in the Gnostic Gospels and in the Koran, there are references to a substitute being used in this crucifixion. As for historical references, an earlier crucifixion of a political leader by Marc Antony was recorded by Josephus but Josephus did not mention the crucifixion of a religious leader named Jesus. Josephus includes references to Judas of Galilee.
The story of Rabbi Jesus is even more fantastic and I think incredibly important because through this story as pieced together by Bushby, we get a better handle on how key people in key places at key times set the ball in motion to eventually became Christianity as we know it.
Rabbi Jesus was raised by the Essenes and studied under Hillel. Rabbi could claim to be both Herodian and Roman royalty. His Uncle, a brother of Aristobus IV, Joseph of Arimathea, who managed to steer clear of being killed by his father Herod the Great (unlike two of his brothers), played a key role in furthering Jesus’ education. Joseph was a tin merchant who frequented the mines of Cornwall in Wales. Jesus accompanied him, and made connections to a Royal family there, where he married the daughter of Tasciovanus, Mary of Magda, meaning Castle. After Judas' failed uprising, various members of this family fled Canaan on a boat that landed on the coast of France. From there Joseph of Aririmathea, Mariamne, Jesus and others went onto Southern England where they were honored as 12 Druids and given a huge tract of land which became known as Glastonbury, or Avalon. Mary Eucharis Magdalene stayed in Southern France where her legacy is well known. Jesus becomes Cunobeline who eventually replaces Tackovanus as King, and is named Bran the Blessed. After a successful reign, Bran retires from politics to become Arch Druid in England, one of three. His son from an earlier marriage, Caraticus, takes the throne and becomes a prominent historical figure who successfully fights off the Roman invasion for about nine years until he is captured and brought to Rome, along with Bran his father (Jesus) and other members of his family, including Gladys who marries Pudens. After being pardoned by the Emperor Claudius, this family sets up a House of Britain in Rome, now known as Pudenziana, and is identified as a first Christian church in Rome. Rabbi Jesus/Bran the Blessed, was a high initiate in the Essene/Druidic and Egyptian wisdom/mystery traditions and could well be described as being one of the most advanced and successful souls to have been on the planet at that time in history. The Druid theological system of a trinity, with a messianic figure born on Dec. 25, etc. were key in informing a the structure of a New Covenant, to complete the Jewish project that was unable to complete the efforts by higher angelic realms to reclaim lost humanity from being controlled by lower god or Archonic systems. The Druids claim that their religious system was started by a figure identified with the Biblical figure Seth, child to Adam and Eve. Paul's grandfather was from Tarsus, but Paul was Roman and his mother was a prominent citizen who essentially sponsored this Puden household. Jesus is eventually killed and there are legends about his head being placed at the site of the Tower of London. Both Gnostic and Kaballistic literature are the best examples of the efforts by these people to update the Old Covenant.
The Nicene convention in the 4th century, hosted by an offspring of this British Clan, Constantine, according to Bushby, debated whether to deify the twins. Eventually the two stories were merged into one story to create a figure that was deified to replace the less effective deification of the Caesar. Bushby wrote another book focusing more on the material around the crucifixion.
Again, this information might be difficult to stomach and the real story must be some variation of the one described above. But the degree to which this story seems extremely odd, may well be an indication of just how far off the Roman Catholic spin doctors took the story to suppress the Herod connection, Thomas the Twin as the failed messianic star of Jewish liberation (King of the Jews), and the political nature of the Nazarenes, not to mention the suppression of the mystery teachings that gave the individual too much power by being identified as a Child of Light. For me, as a student of Christian mystery traditions, this story brings new life and new meaning to the warn-out story found in the Bible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doksomedon (talk • contribs) 14:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
