Talk:Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident/Archive 3

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[edit] "Government propaganda"

I strongly and wholly object the change in terminology in this regard:

  1. Although it has not explicitly said so, I would say the Chinese govt believes that it is not "propaganda", but is merely stating its side of the case, as it has every right to.
  1. I think it would be equally in breach of WP:NPOV if someone came along and ejected every view or pronouncement from FG's or WOIPFG or CIPFG and put that under the heading "Falun Gong propaganda"
  2. Govt actions is broader than Govt media actions (or "propaganda" as it been used);

I also strongly object to the increasingly flippant edit summaries being used (i.e. it used to be "wikipedia doesn't do euphemisms", now it's "we don't call a duck a "flying feathered animal"), so the change is not acceptable. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm...--Asdfg12345 05:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me organise these resources: Propaganda

http://www.cecc.gov/pages/virtualAcad/exp/expcensors.php -- scroll to 中共中央宣传部

http://books.google.com/books?id=zfZ4VV0WTeUC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=chinese+ministry+of+propaganda&source=web&ots=qynVkK_SQv&sig=RfA5OwNCXj6zZBuy8-38LRb_LnM

The Ministry of Propaganda is a government department of the CCP.--Asdfg12345 06:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Few more:

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66102/5826534.html -- "As China battles with Internet pornography, the country's top propaganda official Liu Yunshan has put forward the idea of "building a web culture with Chinese characteristics"."

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66485/66495/66496/4533662.html -- "Under the influence of his seniors, Zhao Shiyan, Zhou Enlai and others, Deng began to study Marxism and do political propaganda work."

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66095/4468893.html -- "He [Mao] was the acting head of the Central Propaganda Department of the Kuomintang in Guangzhou and the chief editor of the Political Weekly."

Apparently it's nothing to be ashamed of, and they do use the description for themselves.--Asdfg12345 06:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

  • There is clearly a negative connotation of the word "propaganda" in the west, which the Chinese Govt may not yet have tuned in to. I'm not letting you off the hook so easily: You've attacked point 1, but 中共中央宣传部 - "宣传" can also mean publicity or advertising (which now you come to draw the analogy, is not totally inappropriate). What about points 2 and 3? Ohconfucius (talk) 06:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Falun Gong publicising its plight, torture and persecution, and explaining that it is a set of exercise movements and spiritual teachings, is 面目皆非 to the CCP's efforts to whip up hatred against practitioners, fabricating endless lies, up to the ridiculous extent of saying that practitioners practice cannibalism, bestiality, or go crazy and kill their family members. This much is obvious. Now please type "Falun Gong propaganda" into google, and compare the instances of reliable sources describing Falun Gong's response to the persecution as "propaganda" and those that describe the CCP's media campaign against Falun Gong as "propaganda." You'll quickly find there's not really a contest. This is the standard description of what the CCP has done. The media it publishes on Falun Gong is propaganda, and in nearly all instances of a scholarly journal, newspaper article, or other reliable source talking about the persecution, the CCP's use of media is referred to as "propaganda." There are also endless comparisons with the same propaganda as featured on the wikipage, i.e. of Cultural Revolution style propaganda, which is not a contentious description. You can find nothing like the same thing referring to Falun Gong's response, which is rarely characterised as propagandistic, despite what we may think.--Asdfg12345 07:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The only part of the "Government actions" which are not propaganda is the first sentence. --Asdfg12345 07:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, we're not here to speculate that the CCP hasn't quite understand how stupid it is to refer to itself as engaging in propaganda, nor to make allowances for that. My Chinese dictionary translates 中共中央宣传部 as "Propaganda Department of the CCP Central Committee"; besides, I'm sure this is what they mean.--Asdfg12345 07:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought you would be amused by those edit summaries.--Asdfg12345 07:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It would help if the government themselves release an English name for the propaganda/publicity department. I encountered the same issue here. This really is an old discussion from like pre-1980s. Benjwong (talk) 14:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
OK User:Asdfg12345, why are you biting on a mist-translation (or better, outdated translation)? Quoting the etymology section of [1],
"From Modern Latin propaganda, short for Congregatio de Propaganda Fide "congregation for propagating the faith", a committee of cardinals established 1622 by Gregory XV to supervise foreign missions, prop. ablative female gerundive of Latin propagare (see propagation). Modern political sense dates from World War I, not originally pejorative."
The original sense of word corresponds better to "宣传" than the current meaning. Would flyers, 宣传单张, really mean "propaganda leaflets"? Even in a commercial setting? On the root of all this the translation between propaganda and 宣传 is plain wrong, so can you please stop using it as an argument because it is simply invalid. Also, because of conflict of interest, any publication on one party will be biased towards them, just like falungong publications are biased towards them is well. If you call what CCP publishes "propaganda", why not label the falungong publications propaganda is well? It will simply be violating WP:NPOV if we label one side of the argument as false (which is pretty much what labeling it propaganda does). --antilivedT | C | G 03:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I wrote about a 500 word response which addressed the important issues you raised, and added in some more thoughts. Unfortunately I lost it all. I'm not prepared to write it again straight away, so just give me a day or so and I'll get back to you on this. Here's a link Persecution_of_Falun_Gong#Media_.26_education_campaign if you want to read about the use of media in the persecution of Falun Gong. You can decide whether you think that is propaganda or not.--Asdfg12345 05:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I'm sufficiently recovered from that episode. I'll try to condense what I wrote.

First about 宣传. We're not discussing how 宣传 translates, really, in other contexts. Of course characters have different meanings in different contexts. The point is that in this context 中共中央宣传部 often gets "Propaganda Department of the CCP Central Committee." There is also the fact that the CCP themselves refer to it as propaganda. They call it the Ministry of Propaganda. They say they are going to engage in propaganda efforts, etc., and on their website they say that Deng and Mao did their time as propaganda chiefs or whatever you like--posted some links above. I'm not criticising the CCP here; they don't have a problem calling it that, and nor should any self-respecting communist.

The other thing is that in every instance of discussion of the persecution in reliable sources, I would say every instance or nearly every instance, their media efforts to defame, vilify, and incite hatred toward Falun Gong are called "propaganda." And this term isn't necessarily meant to be derogatory. It's actually a legitimately descriptive term. It is also very often said in reliable sources that the propaganda campaign against Falun Gong mirrors the many other propaganda campaigns across the CCP's history of rule, notably the Great Cultural Revolution. This comparison is very frequently made, for obvious reasons.

When you type "Falun Gong propaganda" into google, nearly every hit you find will be about the CCP's propaganda against Falun Gong. With this self-immolation incident in particular, it is the most blatant propaganda effort in the whole persecution, and you will also find this in numerous reliable sources. In an overwhemling majority of reliable sources that comment on this incident. It's just very clear. It wouldn't even matter if they were Falun Gong practitioners who burnt themselves, the way it was handled was still propaganda, and it is described as such everywhere you read about it. That's another thing. You wonder why Falun Gong shouldn't be called propagandists also? As I say, it's 面目皆非, but consider this, if you will: the core difference is that Falun Gong is propagating information it believes to be true, while the CCP is engaging in widespread, horrific violence, and propagating information that it knows to be false. This difference is quite large. Apart from that, on a rather practical level, you will find next to zero reliable sources saying that Falun Gong is engaging in propaganda. I think you will find one or two, and in those instances their opinion should be cited. But they are not referring to this incident, I believe I have seen them referring to Falun Gong's general anti-persecution campaign. But the point is that in this instance, Falun Gong's counter to this self-immolation is not being described as propaganda. But the CCP's actions in this self-immolation are overwhelmingly being described as propaganda. Even if it weren't for everything else in the argument, this simple fact would be enough. --Asdfg12345 03:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

According to Google search, there is 1 result to the Wikipedia article "The Epoch Times", 3 mentions of "Falun Gong Propaganda" (ie. propaganda BY Falun Gong), and 4 mentions of "Anti-Falun Gong Propaganda" on the first page. Of those I think the most neutral is the first link, by Stefan Landsberger, which is well-backed up by examples and not overly biased to either side. There is also a systematic bias on this issue: searching in English will only turn up English results, and a lot of the links turning up on the Google search are related to Falun Gong itself trying to 宣传 (I think advertise would be the suitable translation here) their point of view, whereas a search in Chinese would probably be overwhelmed with the CCP point of view. From an outsider point of view, the advertisement of Falun Gong is not much better than the alleged "propaganda" of the CCP: they have a whole newspaper and TV channel dedicated to CCP bashing, various websites operating under the cloak of "religious freedom". If the issue is really about religious freedom the biggest complaint would be from the millions of Christians in China, not a newly-developed religion/cult. But, I am getting off-topic so I will stop here. I will just re-iterate my concern: labeling one side of the argument as false is in clear-violation of NPOV. --antilivedT | C | G 04:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I understand your point. The Landsberger is about the CCP's use of propaganda against Falun Gong, not about Falun Gong's counter. This isn't really related to how the CCP's actions on this particular issue should be characterised though, which is the point. It certainly isn't about labeling any view as false, but about reflecting the majority view in explaining the CCP's use of media to vilify Falun Gong. I'll wait until someone responds to that. Aside from this specific case, I might take the opportunity to respond to your wider concerns.

I think one thing you are forgetting in all this is that Falun Gong practitioners are innocent people who are being tortured and beaten to death for their beliefs. This is the bottom line of what is happening in China. You should recognise that first of all. Why shouldn't they then go and set up a newspaper and websites publicising that? Is that wrong? What's happening in China to Falun Gong is totally outrageous. You should be disgusted at the CCP's vicious killing of innocent people to entrench their rule (the majority death toll in the persecution are women past middle aged, did you know that?), rather than the peaceful response (setting up media to publicise it, sitting outside embassies to protest, handing out leaflets etc.). Don't you think it's wrong that this is happening? Aren't you upset by it? Suggesting Falun Gong is a cult is also playing into the hands of the tyrant. Falun Gong is a set of free exercises and books. It's 100% voluntary. No money is sought or collected. Practitioners do not distance themselves from society. They are wholly innocent. Calling Falun Gong a cult was merely a technique of legitimating the persecution. All this information is freely available, and much of it is actually right here on wikipedia. Please read widely and aim for a wider grasp of the situation, and please don't be afraid to engage your heart. It's a really simple question of right and wrong, really simple.--Asdfg12345 04:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

My point is that I did exactly what you say, googling "Falun gong propaganda", and the result is far from a landslide victory on the Falun Gong (henceforth abbreviated as FLG) side like you have assumed. Both sides have been accused of propaganda and thus if you want to label one side as propaganda, you must also do the same for the other side for the sake of neutrality.
Also, after reading your second paragraph, I must remind you of WP:COI, as you seemed to be quite set on the righteousness of FLG. --antilivedT | C | G 05:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
As for the now-off-topic debate... 

I've seen only one source describing Falun Gong's efforts in the self-immolation propaganda. That's the NYT thing, it goes something like "With propaganda streaming in from both ends of the universe, the claims seemed hard to assess..." I haven't seen anything else saying Falun Gong is using propaganda in this case. We're just talking about this case, and talking about whether the subsection should be renamed. The fact remains that every source calls the CCP's efforts to vilify Falun Gong here propaganda. As I say, for the third time now, when reliable sources also say Falun Gong is engaging in propaganda, in those instances that should be cited in the relevant place.

The off topic stuff, I wanted you to realise that you should just be clear about who the aggressor is here. People are being tortured and murdered to death for their beliefs, this is well documented and widely accepted. The response has been peaceful. It's as simple as that, really. It is up to you whether you accept that or not. I won't say more on it.--Asdfg12345 08:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

OK I will break it down for you if you are still living in your assumption. Let's disregard links to either camp, so I'll skip over the Chinese Consulate link, Clearwisdom, Clear Harmony, Falun info, and any other website associated with FLG; Wikipedia articles, Google Books links (I can't be bothered reading the context of the comments) and any blogs as they are NOT (well most of the time) reliable sources. Here are the results from the first 5 pages:
And that concludes the 5-page analysis. Let's tally them up: accuse CCP of propaganda against FLG:4; accuse FLG of propaganda against CCP: 4.5; To be honest I was quite shocked at how little neutral sources are out there. Out of 50 links only 9 are usable links, and I can say a good 20 or more of the discarded associate with FLG, while Google Books results follows on a far second, and only 1 link from official Chinese sources. Now can we say we have definite evidence that accusation of propaganda is not one-sided? --antilivedT | C | G 09:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, that is interesting. It's a shame we are so inundated with low-quality information, isn't it? These are the times we are living in I suppose. There's still gold out there, it's just a matter of digging around. Anyway, I appreciate this research, but we are talking about this self-immolation incident and whether the CCP's use of media should be described as propaganda. You can go to the article and check out all the links referenced there. Probably 90% of them talk about the CCP's propaganda. I don't know any other source apart from NYT that calls Falun Gong's efforts propaganda, and that is a passing comment. We are not talking generally about Falun Gong's counter to the persecution and the CCP's use of media in the persecution, we're just talking about this specific case, so I guess those links aren't relevant. Do you know what I mean? (By the way, I often find google is a poor resource for looking for the kind of research that should be used for wikipedia. Academic journals and respected newspapers are the go, I've found.)--Asdfg12345 10:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Just came across this, I think you would find it interesting and a good read. Take a look and let me know what you think:

HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA AND THE 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES 
Except what I did is exactly what you said, namely "When you type "Falun Gong propaganda" into google", which the hypothesis of "nearly every hit you find will be about the CCP's propaganda against Falun Gong." is blatantly wrong as I have pointed out in my analysis. That was your main argument earlier on so in effect you have disproved your own argument, so bravo on that. Even if you type "Falun Gong self-immolation porpaganda", the whole first page is still useless for any neutral research as it is simply DOMINATED by FLG-operated sites. With such a low Signal-to-noise ratio I am simply unwilling to do any more research for you as it is just a waste of time sieving through the useless links, and that no matter what I do you'll just change your argument while pretending your previous one never happened. I will stop here now, but I will definitely revert any further changes to "Government Propaganda". --antilivedT | C | G 05:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the above. There is no use getting into intellectual contortions about this: you may continue to quote that "[source1] says such and such an act is Government propaganda", which is fine within reason, a priori. For every example you find, somebody will you examples saying that "[sourceX] says such and such an act is Falun Gong propaganda". I will not get stuck in arguments about what a particular Gsearch string throws up, as counting Ghits is not research. Insistence on using "Government propaganda" as a heading will definitely be vehemently opposed. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Below is a response to Antilived. I clicked save but server froze up or something. It is still relevant; the outstanding issue hasn't been addressed.:

I apologise if I have not been clear in explaining my point of view. I should not have used google search as an example of searching through reliable sources, and I apologise for giving the impression that I based my argument on that. I mistakenly equated, in my earlier phrasing, a google search with a search of reliable sources. Please take a look at the external links on the main page, then, because there are many reliable sources there.

The main point I meant was that in reliable sources the CCP's media actions against Falun Gong are described as propaganda[citation needed], and that with this incident in particular, all or nearly all reliable sources describe it as propaganda.[citation needed] This should be reflected on the page, and on this point you haven't responded to me. If you like, I can go to the main page and copy/paste them here. I think it's quite overwhelming though, and you'll work it out as soon as you go to the references section and look through the links. There are references there to Amnesty, Boston Globe, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and they all describe it as propaganda. This is the main point I had to make, the google search being one way I thought would demonstrate this. You have shown that the google search does not show this clearly, as so much of what is turned up are not reliable sources. I understand what you are saying there.

I could have made more clear that I was referring to how the CCP's use of media in this particular incident was characterised in reliable sources. I acknowledge that in instances where Falun Gong's counter to the persecution is described as propaganda in reliable sources, that on those ocassions it's proper to be cited. But as I also said, I don't believe that this self-immolation is one such case.

But the CCP's media efforts to vilify Falun Gong here are repeatedly referred to as propaganda across a range of reliable sources.[citation needed] It's just a repeat of prior, classic propaganda campaigns in the history of the CCP. That isn't a controversial statement. It's the plain reality, if you stop and think about it for a moment. It isn't a biased statement. They are vilifying Falun Gong practitioners with every means available, concocting outrageous lies to incite hatred and drive forward the campaign of violence and repression. I say these things to you in the hope that you will understand this yourself. I am disappointed by your last remark. I never meant to annoy you, mislead you, or put up fallacious arguments, so I can only apologise if you got that impression. I firstly would wish you to look at the facts yourself, and come to your own conclusion about who is right and who is wrong in this persecution. This is personally what I most worry over, not the page. If you do not wish to engage in the reality of the situation that is your prerogative.

Besides, it's somewhat irrelevant to this case anyway, because as we know, wikipedia does not deal with the truth, but with what reliable sources say. The main point is that "propaganda" is the standard view being taken by the reliable sources who comment on this matter, and wikipedia ought to reflect that. I have said this now many times, and the examples are on the main page. This fact remains. If you are not satisfied with these few words of mine and an exhortation to check out the references section yourself, I can post them here one by one and number the instances where the CCP's campaign is described as propaganda in this case, or generally, if you wished.--Asdfg12345 06:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Last comment. Wikipedia isn't a process of making pronouncements, and articles aren't built by "You're just going to keep changing your argument anyway, so I will just revert X" or providing no real argument and simply saying "X will be vehemently opposed." It's about discussion, debate, and compromise, informed by policy. I welcome either of you to address the outstanding issue explained above; a good editing atmosphere isn't created with those kind of pronouncements. --Asdfg12345 06:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not that we are not making arguments - because we have - but that you are not buying, so there is a difference. Let's say we agree to disagree and leave it at that - meaning no consensus for changing the heading. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

No, it's that you have not responded to the points in my notes. It's really simple. You have not responded to the fact that all reliable sources say it's propaganda. I've let this issue simmer for a while now, I'm still quite busy at the moment but please address that and don't try to shut the discussion down without addressing what I am saying. Thanks.--Asdfg12345 13:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Added {{fact}} without the categories (as to not mess up the category of articles that needs citations: talk pages aren't articles) in your latest comment, to signify where sources should be cited to back up your arguments. Also, please take into account of WP:WEASEL as I can see quite a number of such in your comments.
In fact I have looked at the references in the article and I was even more appalled because nearly half of them are affiliated with FLG, so I doubt are WP:RS, specifically, in violation of WP:SPS and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Questionable_sources. I think I will remove them once I have time. But otherwise, definitely not ALL of the other reliable sources in the references call it propaganda (eg.[2], the claims are made by a FLG practitioner, not CNN), and some are labeling the action of the government after the incident as propaganda, not its side of story of the incident (eg. [3]). Quoting from your comment, "..I was referring to how the CCP's use of media in this particular incident was characterised in reliable sources", the Time article is merely labeling the persecution of FLG after the incident as propaganda, not the official side of the story. --antilivedT | C | G 23:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Where Falun Gong sources are used in this article, as they have every right to be, along with the CCP's where also appropriate, it is explained. It says "WOIPFG, a Falun Gong front organisation, says..." or whatever. There isn't a problem with having Falun Gong sources in this article, but it's important that they are designated as such, and that they don't overrun the article. The majority of the commentary in this article comes from non-Falun Gong, non-CCP sources, and that's how it should be. I'm confused by your second part. That's my whole point--how the CCP used media to whip up hatred toward Falun Gong is called propaganda. Look at what it says in the Time article: "The immolations on Jan. 23 became a propaganda bonanza for the government and marked a turning point in its anti-Falun Gong campaign." If you have found one source out of 10 which doesn't say the CCP is doing propaganda in this case, this just proves my point.--Asdfg12345 04:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I just did a quick count, could be wrong, but it looks like there are 8 different Falun Gong citations. some of these are from the same source though, but the referencing is not done properly. WOIPFG is cited twice when it could be cited once, as the "Second Investigation" and First one could be condensed into one citation, they probably say similar things.--Asdfg12345 04:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly what turns me off: you are never wrong. First your Google search assumption, then you said ALL sources label CCP's action as propaganda, and when I point out that one source doesn't (the second source on the article, really. I stopped after that as you are wrong already), you just ignores the whole thing and still say I'm wrong. As you have said it, after the immolation is not "in this particular incident", and the propaganda is simply against FLG as a whole (I have been living through all that rubbish). Time is not labeling the CCP side of the story as propaganda, rather, it's the propaganda campaign against FLG after the immolation that they're referring to. --antilivedT | C | G 09:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I know, that's what I'm saying man! Nearly all the sources say that the CCP carried out intensive propaganda against Falun Gong after the immolations (and also generally), this is what I've been saying a thousand times. That's what that subsection is about, and I see no reason why it should not be correctly labelled. If we're on the same page here I don't see what the issue is?--Asdfg12345 13:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly proving my point, you have been ignorant to all my and Ohconfucius' arguments, and merely continues on your own over and over and over. There is no way a consensus can be built from this and so the result of this discussion is no consensus, which means a status quo should be maintained. You were the one that was saying labeling FLG-media as propaganda against CCP is irrelevant as it is not concerning this incident, well I can say the same for the CCP propaganda mentioned in the Time article, non? --antilivedT | C | G 21:27, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me put it this way: CCP considers that it has a propaganda department [4] and also journalist consider it as being a society that rellys heavily on propaganda because it's Stalinist/Maoist/authoritarian foundation. Falun Gong does consider it's action as being SOS. Am I missing something? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 22:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
OK if you have been following this discussion you would have read that this issue had been addressed before, that it is a mistranslation and it is absurd to translate 宣传单张 as "propaganda leaflets". Also, now that you're talking about CCP media in general, what about people that label FLG media as propaganda? I have found quite a number of them earlier in this "discussion", if "journalists" label CCP media as propaganda, and thus everything they say are false, why not the same to be said for FLG, as there are "journalists" who label FLG media as propaganda? No, don't start saying it's irrelevant, because it just refutes your argument, as my argument is merely an extension of yours. --antilivedT | C | G 03:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually I was following the whole discussion, and frankly is was getting tiring ... You can't be serios about mistranslation, since I gave you a direct source from the CCP media itself. It considers that is has a propaganda department and it also have a chief "Propaganda Department (Chief: Liu Yunshan)".
  • Translating 宣传单张 as "propaganda leaflets", means that you are mocking the chinese language. You should know that Chinese characters don't have only individual meaning.
  • Falun Gong vs. CCP propaganda well in this case we can always rely on the reliable sources and on WP:DUE. Do you have any numbers? That would help.
  • Also if I may, you where way to quick in reverting, because if I would quote only you, there is no consensus, yet you enforce your version of reality. Which in Wikipedia is not correct. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 06:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  1. Except its Chinese name got nothing to do with Propaganda. Which one should we go after, the obviously erroneous official translation, or the more appropriate, faithful translation?
  2. No I am translating it on a word (词) basis, 宣传 -> Propaganda, 单张 -> leaflet, ergo Propaganda Leaflet! You could split it into 宣|传单|张 but that just wouldn't make any sense would it? I would like to be enlightened on my error here, and to what you mean by "not individual meaning".
  3. Look above you, that Google search analysis which Asdfg commissioned me to do. Usually Google searches aren't reliable sources, but a tally of news articles concerning this matter should at least give an indication on the matters on hand.
  4. Because that was the original version, and since there was no consensus on the change a status quo should be maintained. It is YOU that should explain why you did that edit in the first place? Where is the consensus? Where did you get the notion that everyone has agreed on this matter? I am merely undoing the damage that you have done. Please, next time, don't go accusing the other party when you yourself are in the wrong. --antilivedT | C | G 07:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Antilived, simply because you ignore what I am saying does not make it go away. Among other things, the main point I have been repeating and repeating, which you have not refuted, is that the overwhelming majority[citation needed] of reliable sources characterise the CCP's use of media in this incident as propaganda. This is just the plain truth of it. Along the way I have made other points. Let's not pick nits. I fear you are failing to look at the objective situation and instead taking this as a personal issue. I'm not in any rush. Since the overwhelming majority of reliable sources[citation needed] characterise it as propaganda (as well as the CCP itself), the page should reflect this. As far as I can tell, this is how things stand, unless there is something I'm not aware of or new information/argumentation is brought forth--I'm totally open to changing my mind, it's just that based on this, the conclusion is obvious.[citation needed]--Asdfg12345 01:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I might also make this point, to Antilived and Ohconfucius: failing to address the logic of the situation and then saying "no consensus has been reached" is a cop out. If there really is a good reason not to have the word propaganda there, then come up with it, but don't try to derail the debate that way. This isn't about oneupmanship.--Asdfg12345 01:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

That is the whole point of me adding "citation needed" in your arguments, since I have again and again proved your hyperboles and assumptions wrong I no longer know which part of your argument are actually true. Give me citations, sources, whatever, and stop using weasel-words-filled, vague arguments that you yourself have been shown to refute over and over. Also, an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, so a claim of everything CCP said is false (by labeling it propaganda) WILL require extraordinary evidence, which you so far fail to provide, whereas a more ordinary label of "actions" does not, therefore a status quo should be maintained until you can provide the said evidence. --antilivedT | C | G 03:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

At some point I'll click on all the reliable sources among those 40 in the reference section, and see how many call it propaganda. All I'm saying is that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources are calling it propaganda, this really isn't a big deal. I'll check for sure at some point. For now I think you're taking this too personally so I'm happy to drop it for a while. I think it won't matter what I say, even if all of them call it propaganda, I suspect you will not be satisfied with that. Please tell me if I am wrong--let me know, if the overwhelming majority of reliable sources characterise it as propaganda, will you accept that? Let me know. No rush though, seriously. I appreciate your concern to make the articles better. I don't think it's worth getting too worked up over though, in the end. I'm sure you agree. Have you read the persecution page yet? You might find it enlightening. --Asdfg12345 13:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I just realised you may be quite disenchanted with that response, since you may feel like I have been barking about this the whole time, then when you challenge me to prove it, I say I'm going to do other stuff. I'm going to check all those ones there now, probably will take 15 min or so, then I'll copy paste the responses here. --Asdfg12345 13:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Some Examples of use of word "Propaganda" 

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Asdfg12345 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I find this is all rather disingenuous. FYI, I also happen to think (purely for myself, that is) that the CCP stuff is propaganda, but I would say its use here as a heading is definitely in breach of WP:NPOV. You have been attempting to argue government propaganda as fact, whereas in fact your real agenda is to taint the affair by using the word according to its current definition, complete with underlying negative connotations. It's quite one thing to attribute "X says its propaganda" and "Y says its propaganda" in the paragraphs of text below. However, such views are not universal, as has been argued, I strongly feel it must not be used. I believe even writing "Time says its a propaganda bonanza" as a heading would violate WP:NPOV. Please do not insult Wikipedia, and everyone who edits here by trying to turn intellectual gymnastics over this one. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Third Opinion Ohconfucius notified me of the debate at hand, and asked if I would give my thoughts on the debate. As the article's GA reviewer some months ago, I don't really have any authority of what happens here, but I might be a bit more informed on the topic that the average user, so take my opinion as you will. Also please note that I didn't read through the entire debate above, so apologies if I repeat anything or seem ignorant to any points or arguments already made.

The word "propaganda" has alot of connotations that go along with it, much of it negative. That isn't to say the word is off-limits, but it should be used only where appropriate AND unavoidable. In this case, while it is arguably appropriate, it does seem entirely avoidable. So therefore, we should avoid it. Calling the section "Government actions" seems like a reasonable compromise: it doesn't discount the possibility that the Chinese government enacted a propoganda compain, but it doesn't shove it in the reader's face either. Like I said, if we can avoid using such a pejoritive word as propaganda, we should. In fact, a further suggestion I have would be to call the section "Government response", though that may be a whole nother debate. As it stands, I think the section should be left as "Government actions", in an attempt to avoid any shred of POV, and to give the reader the opportunity to make their own mind up. Drewcifer (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay no problem. Thanks for everyone's time. I did not actually think I was being unreasonable, nor was I trying to insult wikipedia with intellectual gymnastics. I really thought it was not too much to expect that the CCP's propaganda be marked as propaganda, and that this view was clearly demonstrated in the sources.

But we're in the midst of a historical process. I am sure that at a certain time, describing the propaganda during the Cultural Revolution as propaganda may have been difficult, though now it is common place. Given its own time to gestate in the public consciousness the same thing will happen here. --Asdfg12345 06:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)