Talk:Tiananmen Square protests of 1989/Archive 3

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Article has been censored

This article has been censored by those who insist on removing images that depict the results of violent protests against the PRC government. The images removed are public domain images and depict burned out busses. The false reason cited for removing this evidence of violence against the legitimate PRC government is a false claim that the images are not public domain material. The truth is that the images were removed by advocates of a nation that sheds blood in the streets of Baghdad while making idle accusations against more peaceable governments -- in this case a government that patiently waited weeks while its capital city was occupied by protesters and which eventually dispersed the out-of-control assembly in proper fashion - by forcing the crowd out an exit of the square, left open in keeping with standard riot-control tactics practiced by responsible forces worldwide. I would fix the article, but I have no interest in playing Web war with Wikipedia administators who have nothing better to do with their lives than harrass and abuse donors they recruit to the so-called encyclopedia "anyone" can edit if they have the approval of Jimmy Wales and his quixotic cabal of fanatical anarchist administrators. Oroja 17:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"which eventually dispersed the out-of-control assembly in proper fashion"...they did that all right, mowing them down hundreds of people with bullets and beating them to death with sticks by the sounds of most sources. Hooraay for the "peaceable" Chinese government... Icanhearthegrassgrow 14:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

"fanatical anarchist administrators"? "When the debate is over, slander becomes the tool of the loser" - Socrates I think 24.58.112.13 17:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This article isn't even available in China. When you click on the link to this article the connection is immediately reset.205.212.73.14 23:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

He says, she says

I thought I'd asked this before, but I can't find such a post, so my memory must be playing tricks on me. Anyhow, here's a question that's been on my mind for years. I believe there was a massacre, but many people in China aren't so sure. I was still in China with my family at the time, and my mom, who lived through the Cultural Revolution, believes the Party's version of events: thugs attacked and killed some troops and any bloodshed was the result of that. The lack of any footage of actual assaults on the students only reaffirms her belief.

How would you respond to that? You can't of course point to reports by the BBC or the US embassy. Xiner 02:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Did she take part in the protests or watch them? If not then she has no direct evidence to back up her opinion. John Smith's 17:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


And this Wikipedia article refers to no direct evidence to support an opinion to the contrary. We can respond to that by acknowledging that the wisdom of crowds has failed to identify any direct evidence of a massacre at Tienanmen. What's more, Wikipedia lacks well-informed articles about urban warfare sufficient to allow readers to compare the combat tactics of the Peoples Republic Army in June, 1989 in Bejing with those of the United States Army in Panama City on Dec. 25, 1989. A review of PRA combat tactics in 1989 Bejing can only be conducted in light of US actions in Panama that year, and of US urban-warfare tactics in Iraq, 2003-2006. How many Iraq streets have US troops sprayed with automatic weapons fire and worse, explosive munitions? How many civilians have been gunned down by US troops at checkpoints simply because the civilians didn't understand orders?
Wikipedia lacks any citations of direct evidence of a Tienamen Square massacre because there is none to be found. Wikipedia's article on the government's eventual response to the lengthy and disruptive protests reads more like the content of the advocacy documentary The Panama Deception than like a neutral representation of what happened when the government of the largest nation in the world restored control of its capital city.
How would I respond? I would respond by investigating the likelihood that thugs did in fact attack and kill PRA troops -- this is a widely-reported fact Wikipedia refuses to acknowledge, and for which Wikipedia refuses to cite any of the abundant sources from reputable Asian publications. Guess what -- a careful and concerned investigator will eventually produce the names of PRA troops attacked and killed. Of course reports of such attacks against the PRC government are censored from the Western press, but the rest of the world has a fair idea what happened. Unfortunately, Wikipedia and its cabal that pays homage (and donates free labor) to its libertarian-capitalist founder have no interest in reporting the truth as understood by reputable, established non-Western, non-capitalist publications. Oroja 18:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Follow the external references. There were thousands of foreign journalists in Beijing at the time. The eye-witness reports are many. There are also many video recordings of the masacres. Including random fire at building, demonstrants being shot in back while running away, and an ambulance shot to pieces while rushing in to collect wounded. Of course you can not prove that the entire world is not in a conspiracy against China, you are free to dismiss all the evidence you want. Carewolf 14:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Typical Commie propaganda. They are nothing more than power-hungry bullies-with-guns. They are too weak and cowardly to dare to compete in a democracy.


Watch the FRONTLINE episode about the massacres at the square. It happenned. I was there throwing trash on the ground just like a chinaman. I watched the lectures to the soldiers the first time they were in there. People died in their kitchens you know, because their apartments were sprayed with machine gun fire all around the square. People were shot on their balconies and my hotel room was raided by the security officials and they took all my film of that nights bloodshed. thousands oif not tens of thousands were murdered either then or the next weeks when so many people were tracked down and annihilated by the commies. You will listen to what you hear but you weren't there.

What in the hell does THE US involvement in Iraq have to do with this. Reputable Asian sources? not in my country. what are you trying to say reputable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.94.38.75 (talk • contribs) 06:09, 2 June 2007

(removed uncalled for abuse ♦Tangerines♦·Talk)

How to respond? Hmm, a few ideas: pile up the evidence from countries whose interests at the time would've been quite different and write to their embassies. In particular, although Russia was embracing glastnost at this time it was also still a fellow Communist country at the time nonetheless. I am certain that Russia would have had some coverage somewhere of the event, and even if they did censor it then they are likely to acknowledge it happened now in the present. Other nations that would have some record would include (from Asia) India and Thailand. If she is still unconvinced, then it may be futile. [User:Shadowcat60|Shadowcat60]] 14:59, 30 June 2007

Revert SummerThunder's edits?

Would anyone support simply reverting this article back to before the majority of User:SummerThunder's edits? I don't have the patience to comb through all of his edits to verify claims and correct spelling, etc. If no one comments on this, I'll go ahead with it.--Daveswagon 02:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I would support it. In particular, I'm concerned about the very poor quality of the writing, as well as the unverifiability of some claims. One problem is that there have been several editors with similar styles to SummerThunder, whose edits, IMO, should also be reverted. I'd like to see the article reverted to around here: [1]
While some of the information is valuable, much of the additions need a lot of work to bring up to standard. We need to be very careful here because this is a feature article. --Sumple (Talk) 05:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
It's because of the featured status that I'm in such a hurry to get those edits cleared out.--Daveswagon 06:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree. --Sumple (Talk) 02:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted it.--Daveswagon 03:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

"Unknown history to the Youth in China" - suggest deletion

I have a problem with this section, which was inserted about a month ago:

"In 2006, when a journalist from the PBS show "Frontline" did an interview at Peking University where many students participated in 1989, four students were shown the picture of the Tank man who stood in front of four tanks, none of them was able to recognize who that person was, and what that event was about. They thought that it was a military parade, or maybe it was a piece of artwork. Because the Chinese government deliberately removed anything associated with this event, many youth in China today have no knowledge of it."

While I have no doubt that the report is accurate, I think the conclusions drawn are too speculative for inclusion here. In particular, I feel the report reached precisely the wrong conclusion from the interview. A more plausible conclusion is that, faced with a taboo subject and foreign (especially American) media, these students feigned ignorance or deliberately supplied false answers. This demonstrates the effectiveness of China's political education regime, rather than censorship.

At the very least, there is no way to know whether the students genuinely did not know, because no sane person would publicly and openly talk about such things in China, especially not to an American reporter.

I suggest that the paragraph be removed. --Sumple (Talk) 05:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The section is poorly worded, and in the actual video, one of the students says "1989" as if to suggest that he does indeed recognize the image. The section should be rewritten to clearly point out that it is simply an "example" of such ignorance of this subject. I wouldn't quite say that it warrants deletion.--Daveswagon 06:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
For reference's sake. As Daveswagon mentioned above, in the video the male student whispers "1989" to a fellow student, who appeared to be dumbfounded. When asked outright by the reporter, though, the student smiled and feigned ignorance by guessing that the picture is of a parade or military ceremony. This I believe is proof conclusive that at least one of the students was feigning it, if not all of them. P0tat03 16:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
We're not here to play detective. John Smith's 16:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Students do know what happenned. Nearly ten percent of the city of Beijing was involved in this. They know better than to speak about it though. Regardless does saying such things belong in an encyclopedia? 121.94.38.75 05:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

When i asked a fellow student from China if she had heard or knew anything about Tiananmen Square Protests, surprisingly she said NO. I had to find info on Google and Wikipedia to show to her about the protests that happened in her country. That's why i do not agree that the paragraph about the "Unknown history to the Youth in China" be deleted, for i know a living proof that a lot of people do not know anything in China. Remember, they still censor the internet to an extreme degree. Illuminati 23:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Memorial songs

I have heard of several memorial songs, but most of them are in Chinese. The Wound of History (zh-TW:歷史的傷口) is common in Chinese only. So far the only English memorial song that I know is titled "Blood Is on the Square" with lyrics and melody by Philip Morgan (I am unsure which country he is from). the cover page of that song and my listening suggest that Phillip and Teresa Morgan (I am unsure if they are related while they may not be notable) sang the song. Only 748 Ghits are found Googling with "blood is on the square" in quotation marks, so I am wondering whether it is notable in the article.

After all concerning notability, I would like to ask if we should write anything about memorial songs in the article. Meanwhile, please do not copy the lyrics of "Blood Is on the Square" to Wikisource. Hong Kong Alliance in Support of Patriotic Democratic Movements in China has a movie (5 min 25 s) with the song, but later parts will be awful. The lyrics starts with peaceful protects but turns into awful history on June 4, 1989. The movie is noted to be copyrighted by June Fourth Foundation, Seattle, maybe in 1989.--Jusjih 16:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

"I think never killed."

At the end of "The crackdown" section, there is a quote from Jiang said to have been extracted when Barbara Walters interviewed him. However, the citation for this quote (which the main article lacks) in the Tank man article uses the Time 100 article, which doesn't mention Barbara Walters at all. Furthermore, the quote in the article is "the young man was never, never (sic) killed", which doesn't appear in the Time article. Do these inconsistencies matter, or did I miss a source? And if so, why aren't they cited? z ε n ♪ 06:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The clip of the interview in question is part of FRONTLINE's Tank Man video[2]. From what I recall, the quote above sounds about right, but I'll try to find that part of the video at some point and verify this.--Daveswagon 18:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks for clearing it. z ε n ♪ 04:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's the conversation (from "The Struggle to Control Information" part of "The Tank Man"), at according to what is sounds like to me:
Walters: (holding a picture of the tank man) What happened to the young man?
Jiang: I think this young man maybe [possibly said "will be"] not killed by the tank.
Walters: No, but did you arrest him? We heard he was arrested and executed.
Jiang: (speaking in Chinese) I can't confirm whether this young man you mentioned was arrested or not.
Walters: You do not know what happened to him?
Jiang: (in English again) But I think never...never killed.
Walters: You think he was never killed?
Jiang: I think never killed.

--Daveswagon 20:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Am I right to think that this discussion page has been edited and comments removed? The item on the events at Tiananmen Square is a travesty of the truth.There are many unsupported and factually incorrect statements. Just one example - Kate Adie was nowhere near Tiananmen Square and could not possibly have witnessed indiscriminate gunfire in the square. I dont think anyone now believes that there was a massacre in Tiananmen Square. Why is this not reflected in this item?

I dont think it is unfair to say that much of the material relating to modern chinese history could have been written by the CIA or other western propaganda organisations and interests. This is no use at all to people trying to understand events in China over the last 50 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.94.191.251 (talk • contribs)

There is discussion of the argument deaths didn't occur in the square. But it is still disputed. Also you have no evidence to say that such material was written by the CIA or anyone else. So it is unfair to say so. John Smith's 13:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, if it is truly only a western thing, then why is it that Japan, Indonesia, and a few others tell a very similar story especially when nowadays China is a top trading partner? Funny how that works.....

Opening Paragraphs

I looked at this article for a simple reason: to find out what these protests were about. After reading the first three paragraphs (before the "Contents"), I still don't know. The third paragraph even refers to "the movement", yet no movements were previously named... Too much emphasis is placed on alternative names in the first sentence that it's essentially a run-on (if not technically) and drowns the reader in details (and, don't forget, neglects to mention what the protests were about). The second paragraph refers to the "PRC" without previously defining that initialism with parentheses. I suggest rewriting this introduction while trying to keep the basics in mind (e.g. assume the audience knows nothing of the incident). Thanks for listening. 208.64.241.229 22:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful input.--Daveswagon 01:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The article requires a lot of work, but I think the introduction isn't too bad - the first paragraph says it was a series of protests. However I am making a small edit that I hope clears things up a bit. John Smith's 11:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
A "series of protests" against what? Protests are, by definition, in opposition to something (and I still can't figure it out (nor do I see your small edit)).
"PRC" is still undefined, too (and I don't think a fifth grader is going to put six and four together to figure it out by context).
I think the alternate names of the incident might best be displayed in a bulleted list, just below the title, before the introduction. That would clear up that ("drowning") first sentence and make room for declaration of what the protesters were protesting.
Thanks again. 208.64.241.229 15:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten the intro. Feel free to provide more feedback.--Daveswagon 04:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

FAR

I've listed the article for a FAR. It was promoted to FA-class three years ago and has never been through a FAR. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Political Reform?

Just regarding the first paragraph under the heading 'Background', it says "By early 1989, these economic and political reforms had led two groups of people to become dissatisfied with the government" Wasn't Deng adamantly against political reform, as laid out in his Four Cardinal Principles? Or were there other reforms that I've missed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.193.229 (talk • contribs)

I'm not sure what that extract is specifically in reference to, but remember that Deng was not the day-to-day leader in China by 1989 - Zhao Ziyang was. John Smith's 16:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in addition to economic reforms, there were political reforms and also calls for more political reforms in the years leading up to 1989. Other than Hu Yaobang, exactly who was against or for more political reforms is probably a matter of debate. But obviously there were those who were against political reforms. The Tiananmen protests (largely sparked by Hu's death) effectively put a stop to progress on political reforms. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Number of Casualties Section

The section on the number of casualties resulting during the government crackdown on the protests is desperately in need of sources for its claims. -- TexasDawg 20:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

"Urban workers ... believed the reforms had gone too far"

In the second-to-last paragraph under "Protests begin," it is implied (intentionally or not) that urban workers opposed the "democratic" nature of Deng Xiaoping's reforms. The Beijing workers' unhappiness with the reforms was not that they were democratic (that there was even anything democratic about them is debatable), but that they stripped away universal health care and other workers' rights. Democratic and socialist aspirations are not necessarily antagonistic.


"students showed a surprising gesture of respect to the government"

In the second paragraph under "Protests escalate," it is implied that the students helped the police out of a desire to keep the protest peaceful. Given the class and political makeup of the protest, is more likely that they did so because they were communists and respected the memory of Mao. This part of the article should simply read "the students even assisted the police in arresting three individuals who had vandalized a portrait of Mao Zedong." The words 'surprising' and 'government' load it with incorrect meaning.

Typing error

Search for 'particluarly' in the article. Someone should change it to 'particularly'.

“Democracy” (“…from those nights in Tiananmen Square”; it was also the subject of Joan Baez' 1989 song "China" and "The Tiananmen Man" --- Where is the close of the parenthesis? This is in the references to popular culture.

L&O reference

There is a reference to this in an episode of Law and Order: CI.

Can you be more specific than that?--Daveswagon 22:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Impact to the other Communist countries

I think we can add the impact of the protest to other Communist countries like Revolutions of 1989, especially the Romanian Revolution of 1989.--24.18.102.154 20:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Gorbachyov

Was Gorbachyov around for any of the protests? Did he express an opinion? Brutannica 07:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. 81.155.103.36 10:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Gorbachov went to the West with a begging bowl and cap in hand, and was told to go home. The USSR then broke up in what Putin called the biggest geo-political mistake ever. People (in the West) here can make as much fun out of the China and the Chinese as they like, but it is the Russians they have to watch because Russia will soon want its empire back. The all conquering Russians are now even claiming the North Pole as part of their territory. Would you not want the Chinese on your side when this happens? 81.155.103.36 01:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

When

Britain took charge of the EU Presidency in the summer of 2005

This is ambiguous. It should be replaced by a date or specific month. --B.d.mills 03:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)