Talk:Thus Spoke Zarathustra

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Socrates
Philosophy Portal
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Philosophy, which collaborates on articles related to philosophy. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
Books Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate, you can edit the article. You can discuss the Project at its talk page.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary at in the comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Contents

[edit] Wikisource Zarathustra

Where did the Wikisource contributors obtain this Zarathustra translation? From what I can see it is a modified version of the Thomas Common translation, some parts more altered than others.


[edit] Complaints about the Style section

First and foremost, this 300 page poem is not an example of Nietzsches PROSE style!!! Not2plato 03:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

In what way may Zoroastrianism have been inspired by Judaism? Does anyone even bother with sources anymore? --jenlight 12:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

There may not be a specific source for this comment, but it is fairly common knowledge that Zoroastrianism shares a lot of similarities with many of the other major monotheistic religions; specifically Judaism and Christianity. The best source would probably be the article on Zoroastrianism. Tev 04:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure if this has anything to do with the book. Did Nietzsche make the claim that the historical Zoroaster/Zarathustra was inspired by Judaism? This would probably be more suited to the Zoroastrianism article mentioned by Tev, rather than this article.


Judaism is probably older than Zoroastrianism.

[edit] A New Question

Does "said by his sister, Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche, that the notes to the fifth and sixth parts exist in her introduction of the text" mean to imply that she has included the notes in the text's introduction? I suspect not, but not knowing I did not want to rewrite the sentence for proper grammar. Someone who knows ought to clarify.

Why is half of this article totally unrelated to Nietzche's work? --Tothebarricades.tk 02:15, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] answer

This subject heading is titled "Also Sprach Zarathustra" as a general work and does not focus on Nietzsche's contribution exclusively as he is not the sole creator of such a titled work. ~Scot

[edit] The book and the movie

"It is best known for its use in Stanley Kubrick's 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey (which is postulated to have also been inspired by the book, at least in part)." I had to read this sentence a couple of times again after laughing at what I thought was a silly joke... then I understood it was Nietzche's book it was referring to, not Clarke's. Should there be a change?

[edit] Video Game Reference

having stumbled upon this by accident, i thought i would bring to light another work influenced by this. The game series Xenosaga(ps2) and Xenogears(ps1) seem heavily influenced by this work.

I stumbled upon this article while searching for the meaning of the title for "Xenosaga 3:Also Sprach Zarathustra" (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)

[edit] Split

I'm splitting this article into two. I'd appreciate any help in changing the articles that link to this page so that they will link to the correct one. The people at the Wiki project for musical pieces want to keep the titles of classical music pieces in the original language, so the redirect pages (such as Thus Spoke Zarathustra) should all continue to point to this article. Thank you. -Acjelen 03:51, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions

Is there a reason we are listing this under the German title rather than the English translation? This is unusual and I think inappropriate. The Stranger (novel) has L'Étranger as a redirect rather than the other way around; Cien años de soledad is similarly a redirect. You can expand the point: why is the Long March rocket not listed as 長征火箭? Because this is the English wiki and things should be placed under their English titles. Marskell 10:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

The move has been done. Other than that, what is needed is a disambig for the original German title, and I am still unfamiliar with that and how it is done, so if anyone knows how to proceed further to fix Also Sprach Zarathustra, then please do so. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Also_Sprach_Zarathustra and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Thus_Spoke_Zarathustra .--Glyphonhart 02:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

This article is rambling, inconcise and overly verbose. While a strong vocabulary is commendable, the kind of language used in this entry will be unappealing to the vast majority of Wikipedia users. Using seven words where one will suffice seems both precocious and elitist. I'd recommend the article is rewritten using clearer and more understandable terminology.

Pedantry is obfuscation by another name. Je me demand: why is the Magnum Opus of this exceptional exegesisist rendered recondite by abstruse verbiage. Wherefore, I concur and ipso facto let there be light ;). Marskell 13:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately this is being edited by an anon so I can't talk directly to them. It is NOT more "taut" and often far from readable. For example "A unique experimental actualization is notable passim, demonstrable by, for example, the newly invented..." is just stupid. I suggest whoever is editing save flaunting their vocabularly for tutorial and not clutter up the page. Marskell 14:58, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, that could be biting a new-comer but there does appear to be a desire to use verbosity just for the sake of it which should be avoided. Marskell 15:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Correct name translation

I've most frequently seen Also Sprach Zarathustra translated as Thus Spake Zarathustra, is there a reason wikipedia decided to buck the trend and go with "spoke" over "spake"? Does anyone know why it's almost always translated elsewhere using the more archaic term? Should we change the title? -Lommer | talk 06:35, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Kaufman's titles seem to get primacy is all I can suggest. Marskell 17:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
"Thus Spake Zarathustra" is the title of the excellent Thomas Common translation. Aside from "Spoke" being used in the Hollingdale and Kaufmann translations, one might argue that insofar as we are to title the article with an English version of the German phrase "Also Sprach Zarathustra", it is more appropriate to use the modern "Spoke" rather than the old "Spake".
"sprach" can be translated as either, "spake" and "spoke" are in the same tense, why not use modern words? why not write "thee" everywhere we could when we now use "you"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.1.220.130 (talk) 05:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, the right translation is "So said Zarathustra". Nietzsche is having some fun throughout the whole book writing "also" (ger. for thus) where it should be "so" (ger. for so), the english equivalent would be "all so" wherever it should be "so". A truely litteral translation would be "All so spoke/spake Zarathustra", but the meaning is "So said Zarathustra". 193.40.33.50 12:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV bolding

I removed the bolding and extra spacing from two of the large quotes by N. I think it would be fair to say that 'shouting' the quotes across the page is a little POV. :) Cheers --Bookandcoffee 17:43, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

POV aside, BookAndCoffee, the bolding and spacing make the quotes, and the article, more readable. The spacing makes it easier to distinguish the separate lines in the Prologue quote; and the bolding, by separating the quotes from the article's body text, grants the page an immediate sense of structure and textual flow.
Unfortunately, I also hold the POV that Thus Spake Zarathustra is the greatest book ever written. If you haven't done so, try reading it yourself and see what I mean.
I have read it Anon - and BGE, and Ecce Homo, etc. But being a fan of N. doesn't change my opinion. I agree with User:Marskell's history comment that the bolding is not wikipedia style. See Manual of Style --Bookandcoffee 00:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I was supporting it for the aesthetic effect, as I explained. One might presume to allow valuable innovation to override repressive rule-systems, what do you think?

[edit] Nazi and Aryan thought in Thus Spake Zarathustra

It is misleading to claim that Zarathustra in some way 'conjured up' anything specifically Hitlerean, as Hitler's ideology came after Nietzsche wrote the book. Any conflation of Nietzsche with this ideology is not careful work. Certainly, some of the racial and ethnic ideas began to form in and perhaps before Nietzsche's time. In Curtis Cate's biography on Friedrich Nietzsche (Overlook Press NY 2005), Cate does mention anti-semitism in Nietzsche's day. It seems that the philosopher had a more complex relationship to these issues than this article might mislead one to believe. It is not that the article leaves no opening for another possibility, but it almost needs to mention this possibility outright to avoid a misperception. Nietzsche's dicta against the state in the mouth of Zarathustra constitute a hurdle for a political and social superiority, as do his calls for a variegated nobility: Vieler Edlen nähmlich bedarf es und vielerlei Edlen, dass es Adel gebe! Oder wie ich einst im Gleichniss sprach: ‚Das eben ist Göttlichkeit, das es Götter, aber keinen Gott giebt! (Kritischer Ausgabe, eds. Georgio Colli und Montinari, Mazzino, Division 6, vol. 1, 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' 250). This, in my translation, reads: 'Many noble persons, and many sorts of noble persons are needed that there might be nobility! Or as I once said in an allegory: 'this, percisely, is divinity that there are gods, but no God!'. Such a call for diversity and not uniformity seems to conjure up the opposite of Aryanism. --Aschenglut 22:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. We know that within the White race, there is much variation, for instance the numerous different White European nations. Thus Nietzsche's command for a diversified nobility is achievable with White noblemen only. Furthermore, although Nietzsche did decry the state, and although he would as such have regarded the Hitlerian Nazi state as necessarily imperfect and limited, we note that the Aryan White race is not constrained or bound to any one state or any state-based existence, and thus it escapes Nietzsche's criticism in this regard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.37.239 (talk) 14:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
"After I read the name Zarathustra in the anti-Semitic Correspondence my forbearance came to an end. I am now in a position of emergency defense against your spouse's Party. These accursed anti-Semite deformities shall not sully my ideal!!" [1]
To associate Nietzsche with "Aryan" or Nazi doctrine has always struck me as either a naive, incomplete reading of Nietzsche, or just malevolent racist provocation. DBaba (talk) 19:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name of Zarathustra

The article says " "Zarathustra" (/tsaratuʃtra/) is the German version of the name of the Persian prophet Zoroaster".

I do not think it is the German translation. See Zarathustra, that happens to be the Persian/original name of the prophet. Zoroaster is just the name more familiar to Europeans due to how the historians traditionally spelled it. I think Nietsche used the original spelling rather than a German version. I think we should remove the reference to calling it a "German version". -- Sud 11:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dionysus-Dithyrambs

In the article, there is a wiki-link to a Dionysus-Dithyrambs article, but as can be seen from the red colour of the link, that article has not yet created. I think that someone should initiate that article, about the Dionysus Dithyrambs. Hopefully someone could form a stub at Dionysus-Dithyrambs, in order to commence that article.

[edit] One more complaint about Style section

The Style section doesn't look serious, especially the notes regarding comics "Superman". This way it makes the whole article look not very professional.

[edit] It's not prosaic at all, spake I

There was a highly suspect claim that the title "Thus Spake Zarathustra" is more prosaic than "Thus Spoke Zarathustra". Not only is this entirely POV and unreferenceable, but it doesn't even really make sense ("prosaic" is a synonym for "dull", which "spake" is most certainly not). I've removed the statement in question. Ckerr 23:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] themes

I wanted to add a "themes" section to the page to briefly summarize the more salient points Nietzsche makes, but I saw that this article has been worked out for some time, so I thought I'd raise the point here first.--Loodog 03:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] concerns about this article

i am a undergraduate student at Seattle University, WA, and from several of the classes i have had on Nietzsche and Zarathustra specifically, this article does not cover some critical aspects of this text. being a student, i don't feel comfortable making these changes myself, given my limited knowledge, but if someone more qualified pays attention, check these out:

- the introductory paragraph not only discredits the profundity and influence of Zarathustra on objectivism and psychology. additionally, quotes such as "a dense and esoteric treatise on philosophy" simply represents an insufficient reading. dense it is certainly not, being a concise book composed in short chapters which are focused and clear. additionally, the text would seem esoteric only for someone looking to read a novel. poetic it might be, but to label it esoteric is to willingly reject the style of the book, it's flavor. it is made to appeal to the dionysian aspect, so it is not always literal, but it is always symbolic. if abstract equals esoteric, then it is esoteric to be sure

- a large problem rises in the Themes section, in which the wrong impression is given in the line "Nietzche praises lust, selfishness, while reproaching the rewarded concepts of pity and love for neighbors". This is not only untrue, but against the underlying morality of the text. it gives the impression of Nietzsche as a raving lunatic, railing against society etc... Nietzsche's doctrines on lust, selfishness, etc do not reflect hedonism so much as the will to be honest with oneself, and not to repress one's desires. in this sense, he is not celebrating these acts for their immorality, but cautioning against repression of drives. likewise, love for neighbors and pity is a subtle matter in Nietzsche's mind. as he says, charity is a virtue, but only if one is "hard like a camp-bed", giving rest to the weary but not giving of oneself in the process- Nietzsche sees this as denegrating not only to the giver but to the receiver as well (see the fourth book, "The Ugliest Man") Nastynorth 08:26, April 27 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2001: Space Odyssey

I read somewhere that this song was in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Shouldn't that be included? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.37.136.33 (talk) 22:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

That's included in Also sprach Zarathustra (Richard Strauss). It would be more relevant to this article, the TSZ book-article, to note that the content of the book itself was allegorically represented in 2001: A Space Odyssey! That's right, the movie itself depicts the sequential evolution of ape to man to Superman. We should all seek Time Cube. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.37.239 (talk) 14:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)