Talk:Thompson (band)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Croatia Portal

Thompson (band) is part of WikiProject Croatia, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the nation of Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

The whole page right now sounds like some anti-fascist rant! Anti-fascists are not more credible than anti-Stalinists or other antis. Have that page reflect BOTH viewpoints. It hurts Wikipedia's credibility if a page can be hijacked by one group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.144.72 (talk) 13:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anica kninska kraljica

Their song Anica kninska kraljica from 1993 is also quoted as hateful, as the song describes, in so many words, the burning of Krajina all the way to Knin, which could be a reference to looting and the burning of Serbian houses after several offencive strikes of the Croatian Army in 1995.

YOUR EXPLONATION IS COMPLETLLY WRONG!!

He is singing "ZAPALIT CU DVA TRI SRPSKA STABA"

Tthat means "I WILL BURN TWO OR THREE SERBIAN HEADQUOTHERS" HE IS NOT MENTIONING OF BURNING SERBIAN HOUSES AS YOU CLAIM. sONG Anica kninska kraljica from 1993 AND YOU SAYING IS REFERENCE TO BURNING HOUSES IN 1995, NON-SENSE !!!!!!!!

DURING THE WAR IN FORME YUGOSLAVIA SERBIAN PEOPLE WITH A GRAET SUPPORT FROM YUGOSLAVIAN ARMY AND BELGRADE OCCUPIED SOME PART OF REPUBLIC CROATIA SAYING AND CLAIMING AS A PART OF GREAT SERBIA EMPIRE. THAT PARTICULAR PLACE WAS CALLED "KRAJINA" A LARGE NUMBER OF SERBIAN PARAMILITARY ARMY (CHETNIKS) WHERE INCHARGE KILLING AND ETHNICLLY CLEANSING EVERTHING WHAT HOLDS CROATIAN NAME.

MARKO PERKOVIC WROTE A SONG CALLING ALL CROATIAN SOLDIERS AND PATRIOTS TO STAND UP AND DEFEND OUR COUNTRY FROM SERBIAN PARAMILITARY ARMY AND ORGANIZATIONS.

CROATIAN ARMY RETURN OCCUPID PLACE AFTER MILITARY ACTION OLUJA 95. SERBS LAST ALL FATE AND DREAM OF PROCLAIMING KRAJINA AS A SERBIAN COUNTRY. SOME OF MONSTRUMS FROM KRAJINA ARE MILE MARTIC WHICH IS ACCUSED FOR SHELLING AND BOMBING CAPITAL CITY OF CROATIA ZAGREB. HE IS CURRENTLI IN HAGUE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by English007 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This was what an anonymous user wrote, but I reverted it along with the rest of their biased remarks. Quotes from the song would be preferable. --Joy [shallot] 11:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here's some lyrics from anica:

Zbog Anice i bokala Vina, zapalit ću Krajinu do knina...

Translation: Because of Ancia and a bokal (large bottle used for storing wine), I'll burn Krajina all the way to Knin. h3llbent

Ah, thanks. Google found me the full text. The problem was that the name is actually "Anice kninska kraljice" (vocative, not nominative). I'll put it in. --Joy [shallot] 20:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the name is "Anica - kninska kraljica", goto http://www.thompson.hr/ (Thompson's official website) and check out the name of the song listed in the discography section of the site. –Fantastique 13:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Another thing occurs to me. Who exactly is this Anica? Some random woman, or someone in particular, is there a hidden meaning in that? --Joy [shallot] 20:35, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Only God knows who Anica is; she's most probably some random woman killed in the war. On another note, I removed the part: "He was seen mocking an old Yugoslav salute". First of all, there are no old Yugoslav salutes (of course, you have the fist to the side of the head, but this is a normal salute that has nothing to do with communism, even if it was used at one point in Yugoslavia among the partisans), second of all, even if there were, Marko Perkovic does not have the wit neccesary to find something like that humourous. This would be also quite risky, as most of his fanbase would most probably not get the joke, as anyting remotely connected with Yugoslavia is taboo in such circles. Cheers. h3llbent

Yeah, I wasn't sure about that, either, but didn't want to remove it without verification. Thanks. --Joy [shallot] 29 June 2005 10:22 (UTC)

i am croation and i think that the song is the best one tompsonis the best singer and i was born in the war its not harsh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.105.168 (talk • contribs) 10:16, 28 August 2005

[edit] War veterans

"The song Reci, brate moj (2002) sympathises with Croatian war veterans and laments their status ("Tell me, my brother, are we cursed/for it all to be so quickly forgotten?"), which is another trademark of right-wing nationalism in Croatia."

Isn't that a little harsh? I'd recommend just cutting the whole thing out... --Thewanderer 23:38, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Evo zore evo dana

Why did the editor of the article call "Evo zore evo dana" a chauvinistic song?

[edit] In nearly every song

in nearly every song of thompson ( i know nearly all of them :-)) you can find a political message for croatian patriotism. and for the question ^^ "Evo zore" is definetly nationalistic. It is a story playing in der time when croatia was under fashism, and there are gloryfied army leaders of Ante Pavelic (some kind of the croatian Adolf Hitler). What i missed in the article, was that thompson sometimes talks about mystic things in his songs (dolazak hrvata> a white knight, send from god gave the land to the croatan people). It is an interessting fact compared to the german fashism (chosen rase and so on)

Evo zore is not Thompson's song.Song originates from WWII.Thompson was not even born yet back then.If you do not know the subject,don't write here.If you know this,and are intentionally lying,than you should be banned.

[edit] biased

This page is extrememly biased and one-sided.

if you want to say that thompson sang evo zore evo dana, then do so, do not put lyrics he did not write about on his page. There is already information explaining what evo zore evo dana and jasenovac are. If you are so concerned about putting every bad/controversial thing a band did, then go to Marilyn Manson's page and put the lyrics of every controversial thing he has said/sung. Go to Baja Mali Knindza's page and include every single controversey he has done and the songs he sings; I was shocked that no one included them (as there are many) like they did to Thompson, but then, that is not too surprising. why are there no good things written about thompson? like the inspirational songs he sings. like the fact that every year during homeland and thansgiving day, he has a concert in which all the money made goes to soldiers families that fought in the war?

This is a page about a band, one that many see as controversial, but that does not mean putting EVERY single controversy down--go to any other singer/bands wiki page, you wont see lyrics of EVERY single controversial song down. This is weighing down the page with one excessive one-sidedness. There are just as many Serb singers that are even more controversial.

Bojna Cavoglave "includes many controversial parts" besides za dom spremni, what else is controversial? the fact that he is singing about defending his village from people trying to occupy it? Then is every european war song made during WWll controversial because they sang about defending their country.

Also, what does it have to do with the band thompson if other "reported" versions exist of the song with "ustasa" reference. did he make them? show proof.

and I removed the "controversey" from the last song because frankly, I have no idea why its there

This is just what I am editing for now--I will do more later and some more good things about this band. According to Serbs, almost every single one of his songs is controversial. While I don't like everything they do/sing about (especially Jasenovac, which disguists me), you can't take out good qualities and songs from the band. What they did/do for Croatia is amazing, and the reason why they are the most popular band in Croatia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MilaLika (talk • contribs) 00:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greeting to King Petar Kresimir??

I see here in the text one obvious nonsense. How could Nikola Šubić Zrinski (who lived in 16th century) greet the King Petar Kresimir IV (who lived in 11th century) with the greeting "za dom spremni" ?? 83.131.164.116 17:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Nikola Zrinski used it as abattle slogan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcellogo (talk • contribs) 18:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Edited a great deal of English grammar stuff, and added many citations needed tags. I knew nothing about this topic, just trying to clean it up a little. Let's keep making this one presentable. Cheers! Eric kennedy 00:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I tried to give objective view on the article

This article was highly subjective when I first read it.I did not erase one sentence of the original,but simply put his response on the subject.Article was one sided and gave impression that Thompson is a Nazi sympathizer as a fact.None of the accusations were ever proven that he glorified fascism,and he denied any connection with it.I changed one sentence that stated that Thompson wears black uniforms on his concerts.That is not true.He wears regular black T-shirts and black jeans.Look it up on YouTube.Which is understandable since he is a rock singer and he is personally Iron Maiden,AC/DC fan.Or all Iron Maiden fans are fascist? The salute Za dom spremni(for homeland ready) he uses only in the beginning of the song Čavoglave.And the salute is not fascist,but medieval Croatian military salute. All the statements I've put,he has repeated numerously.They are a fact and can be found in every interview,since he repeats them all the time. I think that article looks now,by data in it objective.Although data could be organized a little bit more constructive.Not removing anything but making it easier to read.Better flow of information.

[edit] U boj, u boj salute

Someone edited article in a way to show that people during the entire concert were Nazi saluting.So people on that rock concert should keep their hands in their pockets?Come on people,on a rock concert? And someone said that people rose their hands in a Nazi salute.The salute U boj, u boj is today mostly used on sport events,and also people raise their hands.So entire football,handball,etc.fans are Nazi? You need to be a little more objective.

Please provide a relevant source showing that "U boj, u boj salute" exists (that you didn't make it up), and that it included Hitler salute before 1941. All the article is saying is that some people raised their hands in a gesture in which the arm is held out forward straight, with palm down (we call that gesture "Hitler salute"). Is that true or not? Are you saying that people on the video are not raising their hands out forward straight, with palm down? --161.53.73.13 07:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is several videos from football matches showing the U boj, u boj salute: [1] [2] [3] [4]

I don't see that anybody here calls that salute "U boj, u boj salute". You haven't provided a relevant source which shows that you haven't just invented the term.

If you want more,look it up on You Tube,there are tones of them.Every sport match viewers use that salute.It is a common thing.Also difference between Hitler salute and U boj, u boj salute is that in Hitler salute arm is steady(this I hope you know),and in U boj,u boj arm is in constant moving.

Good. Then the salute about which we are talking is indeed a Hitler salute since men on the video do not move their arms but keep it steady (like when you show the height of a corn, for instance).

As I have written in the article,U boj, u boj is something more of a battle-cry.Actually is something between battle-cry and a salute,because it was used in medieval times mostly between soldiers who just before battle rose their guns or swords,and after that battle cry-salute would charge the enemy. Today,since no one carries a weapon,and can' raise that,of course,there is no rule in which way should arm be held.As you will be able to see on these videos,some people close their fist,some open it,some point with their index-finger... there is no rule. And for evidence of this salute existing look at Ivan Zajc's opera Nikola Šubić Zrinski.You will see that in that opera arm is raised in Saluto Romano way,or Hitler salute,as you like to call it. I'll explain how it got in Croatian history:

That salute dates back to Roman times,and many states who exited after Rome on area of todays Italy used it.Because it meant that if you used it,you are of a Roman descent.Nikola Šubić Zrinski,was a little bit narcosis,and by his noble background he introduced that salute in Croatia army at his time. Hitler was not only one in history who admired Roman Empire.I think that you should know that,but he is the most infamous one,because of his awful crimes against humanity. Many kingdoms and empires found on the grounds of Europe after the fall of Roman Empire were admiring the Roman Empire,so salute is widely spread,since before Hitler using salute had meaning of noble descent.Roman descent.

Salute originally was:Ave Caesar,morituri te salutant.Translated means:Long live the Cesar,dying salute you.The hand was with fist opened.

So,I ask you now,to remove that remark that some were Hitler saluting,since that is for discussion and is not a fact.Once more I will state,that kind of saluting was in Croatia was long before Hitler and The Nazis.If you can prove that that salute is not Roman and that Roman descent among noble families of Europe was not appreciated,and using all Roman customs was not display of nobility,you can leave that remark.And that you can't prove,since is not the truth.So please remove the remark.

OK, I changed "Hitler salute" to "Roman salute". --89.172.36.21 16:45,

26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok,at least that.

[edit] Today's Edits

I found this article on the clean-up page because much of it is obviously not written by a native English speaker. I made some changes to it today. But, seeing that I know nothing about the subject matter, I did my level best not to alter any of the subject or meaning. I would say though that it reads more more like a poorly organized (albeit balanced) journalism piece than it does an encyclopedic entry. It still needs considerable attention and so I won't be removing it from the clean-up page just yet. The "Perković's response to accusations" is far too long, for instance. In any event, I'll be back for more, I'm sure. Douglasmtaylor 19:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I totaly agree with you. Grammar of authors of this article (including me) is horrific. I reverted only 2 of your changes since they changed the point of the sentence. I agree that the article needs a bunch of reorganisation, but I won't have the time needed for a rewrite until Autumn. But, I must say that the article was in even worse shape a month ago, and it is slowly becoming better. It might be even better that way because an agressive rewrite might end up with an edit war since this is highly controversial topic... --(the guy doing all the anonimous editing) 16:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Don't let this become edit war(History of the article)

This is a very controversial subject.The band either has those who hate them,or those who love them.In Croatia there is no neutral party.when I first found this article,it was extremely biased.It could be marked as propaganda against Thompson band.When I started editing this article,I did not remove certain claims,that had no external sources,because I knew they were true.But I did change sentences from he did... to he allegedly did... or he is accused of doing... since in that article all of that stuff were never proven,and band denied it.The weight of proving someones guilt is on the prosecutor,not one being accused.With the help of wiki editors around the world this article now looks like something.Before you couldn't see heads or tails on this article.

But I have one thing to be worried about.From lets say 1000 pictures of Thompson concert on Maksimir,there are only 15 of those with people wearing ustashe insignia.And here some editors try to represent like entire 60 000 people wore ustashe insingnia.That is propaganda and I will not allow it.In the begining of the section controversy,there is a picture of a man going to Thompson concert wearing ustashe insignia.That side must be represented since it is reality,and cannot be ignored.But to put picture of some kid,right where I translated Thompson words is just sneaky.Man stands in defense of his family with a statement,and then some editor places picture of 10 year-old boy who has no idea what it means,an horrors that insignia was responsible for.I'll change the picture again in order to Thompsons audience is fairly represented.I will not allow that wikipedia becomes propaganda site against Thompson,but I will respect any fact,if it can be verified on external source.Anyone who has any abjections please write them here.I want this article to be neutral.I think that neutrality is a goal of encyclopedia article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Obersoldat (talk • contribs) 12:36, July 10, 2007 (UTC)

Thompson says: "Me and members of my band saw nobody with Ustaha iconography among 60 and more thousand people on Maksimir." It is logical to have a photo of a boy wearing Ustahsa iconography right besides that sentence, because Thompson says he didn't see this kind of people. I moved your photo of the boy with Croatian flag a bit up, because that photo is not directly connected to his sentence. I didn't remove you photo this time, so please don't remove the photo I put. That's fair, isn't it? The photo of a boy wearing Ustashe insignia IS directly connected with his sentence, that's why it has to be there. I hope we can reach a mutual agreement on this... --161.53.243.168 15:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that your picture is connected with Thompson statement.Since the picture is taken outside Maksimir Stadium.You can't prove that this kid had ticket to Thompson concert,or that he was anywhere near stage where Perkovic could have seen him.

A girl with Ustashe cap, audience giving "salute which has nothing to do with Ustasha", guys with Ustashe caps... Were this people on the concert? How about this girl in Osijek giving "an old Croatian salute which has no connection whatsoever with the Ustasha cap she wears" --78.1.108.195 20:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture showing that (small) part of Thompson audience wearing Ustashe insignia is put under Controversy chapter.That is enough to show that part of story.Perkovic's response to accusations is a seperate chapter and placing that picture under that article insinuates that Perkovic is lying and entire chapter is represented as Perkovic's lies.

No, it doesn't insinuate that Perković lies. We all know that Perković is a decent Croat and would never lie. What this picture shows is that unfortunately, there were some hidden and distant parts of audience which hid themselves from Perković because they didn't want him to see their Ustasha insignia. So, while Perković is perfectly honest when saying he didn't see no Ustasha insignia, this picture is showing that unfortunately some other people have seen such insignia. --78.1.108.195 20:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If you wish to keep the picture,move it to controversy chapter.I never disputed subsections of controversy chapter about songs Cavoglave and Anica-kninska kraljica.This I do not consider controversy since time frame when these songs were created,in time of war.Someone may consider them yet a controversy,and I respect that.Please,do not portrait this chapter as a lie with that photo,allow that entire article be neutral.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Obersoldat (talk • contribs) 17:20, July 10, 2007 (UTC)

Give me a break. Please see the photo / article published in the International Herald Tribune A Croatian rock star flirts with the Nazi past . // laughing man 18:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I will say this once again: I'm not saying that the whole chapter is a lie. The whole chapter is perfectly true since we have valid references for that part of the article. I'm just putting that picture there to show that unfortunately Perković didn't see some people. He didn't say there were no such people, just that he didn't see any. This picture shows that there were some such people there, that's all. --78.1.108.195 20:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I told you already,i do non deny that there is a part of such audience.But that same topic is put under controversy chapter.To stretch such biased pictures through entire article,makes the article biased.

A picture cannot be biased. A person can be biased, or a point of view can be biased. But, picture cannot be biased, picture is an exact representation of reality. Saying that picture is biased is saying that reality is biased, which just doesn't make any sense. --78.1.126.235 22:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

: I expressed myself in a wrong way.I meant that true data can be placed in a bad contest and that would appear as he is lying.Not every reader can see the same thing.I only want facts pro and against to be placed in different chapter.that is all.

Make a remark if you wish in controversy chapter and place that same picture,but placing it in Perkovic's response chapter is sneaky.It shows that he lies or at least that he is an idiot.

You said that. So, if you say that photo shows he is an idiot or a liar, why shouldn't we put it there? If the photo shows he is a liar, then the photo should be there, right? If we move the photo away, we are trying to hide that he is a (in your words) liar. --78.1.126.235 22:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

: I expressed myself badly.The sentence should say:It tries to show that he lies or at least that he is an idiot.I only want,pros and cons to be placed in different buckets,and not to be mixed.So that any reader can decide for himself.

Article is Perkovic's response to accusations,not Perkovic's and his audience....Regarding Herald Tribune article,there is no interview with Perkovic,aricle is just personal view of the author.And that is not encyclopedia material.You can say that certain journalist has this or that opinion,but you can't say that his opinion is a fact.Articles on events and interviews are seen as reliable,not opinions and personal conclusions of some journalist.I tell you again,move that picture to controversy chapter and write there what ever you like,and I will not say a word on that matter.

There,I did it for you.Satisfied?I only placed the entire thing in the proper chapter.This is all I asked.

[edit] Merger?

I propose that Marko Perković be merged into this article. Everything covered in his article is covered here or could be. He is the only permanent member, songwriter, lead singer and the merger would strengthen the article.--Gloriamarie 21:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree,since Thompson band is personalized in Marko Perković.You have my vote.It is logical,since there are same data in both of them.--Obersoldat 01:25, 17 July 2007 (GMT+1)

Agreed, but nearly all information in this article is about Thompson himself - and the article should therefore be renamed to Thompson (singer). (Would that in fact be a merge in the other direction?) GregorB 22:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted

Despite this, his statements confirming his support for the Ustaše actually outnumber his denouncements of this virtual NSDAP equivalent (he is noted to have publicly voiced his support for the NDH, in various degrees, to the media on at least thirty occasions). His credibility in these statements is diminished not only by this fact but also by the legal necessity to denounce any fascist movement in order to avoid further banning (or other legal action).

This part is deleted because this is personal opinion and no relevant sources were given.And that is not encyclopedia material.Please post only statements,events and interviews with relevant sources.No personal opinion is allowed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obersoldat (talk • contribs) 12:13, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I cited a newspaper report by a Croatian weekly newspaper called Feral Tribune after his apparent concert in Split. Is there any reason to doubt the info? Can you find a contradicting ref?

One more thing: his credibility is certainly undermined by the necessity to denounce fascism in order to avoid further banning. That is self-evident, is it not? Were he to do anything other than that he would be banned from performing by standing Croatian law, that much is obvious. DIREKTOR 13:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Feral Tribune is a tabloid, not a reliable newspaper. If we are going to trash far right sources as tripe, we should do the same for this left-wing garbage. Feral Tribune is not a reliable source on its own. --Thewanderer 19:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I am aware now of the papers reputation. However, they did quite specifically cite Perković on thirty well detailed occasions where he voiced support for the Ustaše in various degrees. They were very specific and, despite their reputation, the citations are on their back issue for all to see. They merely piled together all the Ustaše statements in one place, and they appear to ammount to thirty.

It should also be stated (perhaps in a rephrased version) that the standing law on fascism certainly has influence on public statements related to that ideology. This much is fact. (I will not revert the current version, let's try to reach a consensus.) DIREKTOR 20:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: the Ustaše statements are merely all piled up on the Feral newspaper. This is a quotation (often from other, more reliable newspapers) and the reputation of the newspaper is utterly irrelevant. My statement has been referenced if full by Wikipedia standards. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but be careful about editing it without reading the source, or aquiring contradicting references. DIREKTOR 17:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds to me someone's just a bit picky because of its contents.. ;0) No seriously, can it really be rated trash and tabloid? What is Kurir then? :) --PaxEquilibrium 16:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

And it's not as if Thompson's quite big admiration of the Ustashas is a secret... --PaxEquilibrium 16:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, "admiration" is not encyclopedic. I think Feral Tribune can be used as a valid source, but on a story-by-story basis. Feral Tribune picks at the Croatian right wing with varying levels of reliability and often shady sources (if any). Unfortunately, DIREKTOR did not source the article at all originally, meaning other editors didn't even have access to it to see its quality.

Also, the number 20 in the article seems to be DIREKTOR's own. If he wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear which 20 quotes support the NDH. --Thewanderer 18:37, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I will not repeat myself again, so read carefully: the paper is not reliable. the quotes they happen to list in their issue are reliable. they do not write anything new, they merely quote (from reliable sources like Jutarnji List interviews).

The number "20" is my number, yes. It is derived from 30 pro-right statements written in the source (read it!), at least 20 of wich directly express support for the Ustaše and the NDH in various degrees. DIREKTOR 14:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not so simple, my friend. The article already discusses the Jasenovac i Gradiska Stara controversy. I'm not sure that all the quotes relating to this can be interpretted as "supporting the NDH", which you are claiming. Singing a song may prove ignorance, but it doesn't equate to voicing support for the NDH. There are many controversial quotes cited there, but you're current claim is original research as long as it remains so broad.

Finally, the line his statements confirming his support for the Ustaše actually outnumber his denouncements is unacceptable, because it is totally unverifiable (and most likely inaccurate). No other editor can respond to this because if they tried to collect and number all the quotes in his defense, or those that are positive, they'd also be doing original research. --Thewanderer 16:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The article does NOT specifically concern the Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara controversy. Not all 30 can be interpreted, but at least 20 can (read it). Singing a fascist song has everything to do with supporting fascists, and is absolutely equal to it, by legal standards (of course!!, maybe singing My Fatherland is also ignorance?). NONE of these quotes are untrue and can be verified by looking up the sources mentioned by Feral Tribune (this is not original research by Wikipedia standards).

I am willing to rephrase that line if you'd like, that's the purpose of discussion. Be careful, however, about removing my referenced contributions. Also, it is incorrect to say that the line you specified cannot be proved innacurate (not to say it is innacurate) by adding as many references as you like here or in the article. You need to read up on original research, according to you, Wikipedia would be full of irrefutable, incorrect info. DIREKTOR 18:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this helps - Simon Wiesenthal Center: The Simon Wiesenthal Center protested to the Croatian government over the open display of WWII-era fascist symbols, banners and uniforms by fans at a recent concert in Zagreb. The headliner act, “Thompson”, proudly promotes Croatian ultranationalism in their music, sometimes celebrating heroes of the Ustashe--the fascist party who sided with Hitler during WWII--and heroes of the 1991 Balkan war, some of whom are suspected war criminals. --PaxEquilibrium 14:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

What else can I say to change this guy's mind... DIREKTOR 10:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a personal opinion of the author.No facts.As a source is not reliable at all. Obersoldat October 15th 2007 13:23 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obersoldat (talk • contribs)

[edit] NS(National Socialist) band?

According to their lyrical themes, would these people be considered a NS band? They sure sound like one. DemonicSailormoon 00:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

They do, however, they do deny it so its pretty controversial. DIREKTOR 13:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

What part of their lyrics does remind you of NS band?Please quote.And explain why you think that. Obersoldat October 15th 2007 (UTC)

There are no lyrics in his songs that remind people of a NS band. This issue would be much eeasier to solve if the guy was singing in English.Lost in translation.................--(GriffinSB) (talk) 14:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources people,no propaganda

The following comments have been deleted:

The band promotes Croatian patriotism and ultra-nationalism, and sings about topics such as the love for one's country, family and religion, but also about the hatred of Serbs and Croatian social democrats. Dealing with such topics has made the band controversial. Perković has been known to openly promote Ustaša ideology because he wears black clothes, salutes in the corresponding way and had often openly supported the Ustaše and the NDH in his statements to the media.

Ultra-nationalism?Ultra-nationalism means that you want to destroy everything that is not of your nation.While patriotism means that you love your own nation,but you respect others.Where in his songs does he promote hate to other nations?And no mentioning songs created in time of war against the Serbs,because it was the time of war.And only mention songs written by him.Not what he is accused of performing.

Hatred toward SDP?Where?Name source.He is right wing,that si widely known. Of course he disagrees with their politics and he considers their politics bad for Croatia,but hatred? Reliable source please.

Where does he promote openly Ustashe?Citation please.Because he wears black clothes?Are all rockers Ustashe?By this,rock 'n' roll is equal fascism.He is a rock singer,of course he wears black clothes. Salute he uses is an old salute of Croatian nobles,that existed long before Ustashe.

Despite this, his statements confirming his support for the Ustaše actually outnumber his denouncements of this virtual NSDAP equivalent (he is noted to have publicly voiced his support for the NDH, in various degrees, to the media on at least twenty occasions)[5]. His credibility in these statements is diminished not only by this fact but also by the legal necessity to denounce any fascist movement in order to avoid further banning (or other legal action).

Again,I see that this is already discussed.Feral is not reliable,its a tabloid.Only reliable newspapers should be used.And these quotations in Feral,while they may be true,there are no links to check the meaning,because they may be taken out of contest,and they could have totally different meaning ii their original contest.This is not reliable.

DIREKTOR,if you want this,please rephrase it and place it into Controversy chapter.But be careful how you rephrase it,because you shouldn't claim something that you can't back up with relevant sources.Feral is not relevant source.Please restrain yourself in your statements,and don't edit something for which you can't provide relevant sources for.

And one more question.A couple of months ago I translated two Perkovic's statements in Jutarnji list and Vecernji list.I've put relevant sources,links to that articles.And a picture was there also.Someone deleted all this without giving explanation on the discussion page.This is not what wikipedia is about.Any change must be explained.Shame on anyone who uses this kind of sneaky methods. Obersoldat October 15th 2007 13:16 h (UTC)

This is the introduction, the sources are mentioned in the rest of the text, I'm afraid. Please read the whole article before editing.

Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara (for example) is an ultra-nationalist song. (He used to sing it all the time before 2003, hell, I have on my cell-phone a recording of him singing it.)

His hatred of Serbs is evident from the newspaper quotations of his statements I provided.[6]

He publicly riddiculed the SDP-led Croatian government, as well as president Mesić (read the text).

Here are some of his openly supportive statements to the media [7].

Yeah, someone appears to be in the habbit of removing sources, my source was removed as well.

DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Look,you've put sentences out of the context.Some of them I know they are true.But some of them look modified.The thing is that you can't take these sentences like that.I urge you to find articles and interviews from which these quotations were taken.And that will be relevant source.And when you find all that then place it into Controversy chapter.Because,that belongs there thematically.That is the most important thing that I ask.

Now to clear up some things.Talk bad about politicians is not that big deal.Croatia is a democratic country and in democracy that is a normal practice.Hell,if this was a bad thing,then I should be locked up,and entire country also.To be able to disagree and criticize someone is a foundation of democracy.There should only say that he is strong admirer of right wing parties.

Regarding hatred toward Serbs,you can't say that he hates them,but you can say that he does not like them,does not respect them,etc.But hatred means that he wants to destroy them,which he doesn't.But he doesn't not want to have anything with them.And that is also democratic choice,not a good one,but democratic.Anyway,this all does not prove any support for NSDAP.

I want entire articles,not just quotations taken out of the context. Obersoldat —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.48.52 (talk) 11:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is a total disgrace

Seriously, this article is almost unbelievably bad. First, it's very poorly written and in desperate need of editing/clean-up. Second, it flagrantly ignores Wikipedia's neutral-point-of-view policy with its use of biased language and tendentious statements. One example: "Dealing with such topics brought to this band many enemies in well-established Serbian lobbies in various media (newspapers, magazines), that used uninformed and easy-believing media to spread propaganda against him."

Someone please do something about this dismal article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.149.15 (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "uninformed and easy-believing media"

I removed a sentence with the above quote as an unsourced POV statement. SWik78 21:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"uninformed and easy-believing media" <dude that's true, just look around... the jews and serbs are trying to get his shows cancelled by lying to the media, by only giving them the bad facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.161.208 (talk) 21:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube sources

There are links to 2 YouTube videos in this article. As per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Examples these are not realiable sources due to, among other reasons, possible copyright violations and I will be removing them. SWik78 20:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I'm trying to make an Italian page about Marko...

I've changed note number 27 heading it to english versions of the same article.

Maybe publishing an ENGLISH page on an ENGLISH wikipedia is better, so people can really understand what Marko are tryng to say...

And now, after having paid my personal tribute to the polemical and biased controversy running wild here, some more neutral advice...

Imitate the biografic Style of croatian wiki page, It will make it much more clear.

In the article i've submitted[8] it is stated that Thompson is a Battle Name, not a stage one, so the real name of the man is Marko Perković Thompson.

The article contain also a very relevant statement about Israel, that not any antisemite will ever say: I think that there are many similarities between the Croatian and Jewish people, one obvious being our religious beliefs regarding the old testament of the Bible, with the works of Moses and Abraham. We also fought for many years in order to have our own independent nations. Give it the attention it deserve.

Marko has a My Spacepage, and Tiho Orlic the same. There is also a blog, thompsonblog 2007 that appear to be directly linked to Marko's entourage.

There is some real croatian out here? Or someone that has, like me, Croatian relatives? It seems me that the article rely too much over an external point of view, not telling enought to the croatian side of it.

What about the public airing of 17/06 concert controversy,? Or the Croatian national football team publicily menacing a strike after that "Lijepa li si" was not aired during a match? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcellogo (talk • contribs) 00:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Whatever info you can find sources for is welcome on Wikipedia. Cheers. --Thewanderer (talk) 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of article

Could someone translate the quotes into english where he supposedly advocates support for the Ustase in the Feral Tribune article

[edit] Analphabetism

This part:

I'll set fire to two or three Serb headquarters, for my trip not to be in vain. This is seen by Serbs a blatant call for violence against Serb civilians.

This is stupid.What do Serb headquaters have to do with civilians??? Tipical aim to mislead a reader.

In wars people sing warsongs.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 14:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"This is seen by Serbs as a blatant call for violence against Serb civilians."

I agree it sounds illogical, but the sentence is not automatically incorrect because headquarters are not manned by civilians, as it denotes an interpretation on the part of the Serbs. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

yeah,Serb nationalists and logic never got along.

Only thing i see about that frase is that it is completly taken out of context to serve a certain goal.

So when the US marines sang songs about burning German headquaters,they would be accused of being nazi's like Thompson???lol It's a war song in which he describes he will burn Krajina because a girl named Anica was killed and he will burn their headquaters.WTF???

Serbs have at least 20 singers who constantly insault Croats,Bosniaks and Albanians,even mentioning killing of all the non-Serb people. But who cares ,right???As long as Serbs can hide their nationalist agenda behind the real ww2 victims the Jews(who have every right to be sensitive on these issues) no body cares about other victims.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 18:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Things would be so much easier if Thompson sang his songs in English.This way it's easy to get caught in misunderstandings and prejudice.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

ALL nationalists don't go along well with logic. First, there is no anti-Croat conspiracy on Wikipedia, and second there is no sinister Serb "agenda" that plans all this. If the Serbs have 20 trashy nationalist singers like Thompson, then they should get the exact same treatment: facts and references denoting their radical stance. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 18:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC) The real problem is that Croatian nationalism is associated with National-Socialism and the holocaust, Serbian nationalism isn't. This is, of course, no excuse for "hatred songs". --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 18:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Croatian nationalism is associated with National-Socialism because of serbian war-time propaganda see,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Serb_media_in_the_1991-1999_wars_in_the_former_Yugoslavia which still continues to do the same today years after the war trough the numoeros nationalist websites.It was intended to deprive the right of Croats to become independent and to create hatred among the people of Yugoslavia to tolerate and commit warcrimes.

Serbian famous fascist singers are Baja Mali Knindza, Lepi Mica and on youtube you can find all the war-time forgotten ones. The songs variate from blowing up churches,mosques,killing Turks(Bosniaks),Ustasi(all Croats),pissing and shitting on our flag,people,language,faith,names.Celebrating Vukovar and Srebrenica because of the massacres and genocides.Singing about the methods used when the gencodes were commited...the most famous one is Noz ,Zica ,Srebrenica.Knife ,Wire ,Srebrenica etc. Celebrating Ratko Mladic,Radovan Karadzic,Milan Martic,Slobodan Milosevic,Zeljko Raznatovic(Arkan) etc. Albanians being called rats,pests etc.

BUT NOBODY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THAT!--(GriffinSB) (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

How many newspapers and media would cover this if this was happening in Croatia???

Serbian hooligans...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf-I8RTNAHk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C1lNFQhXEQ

Serbian song celebrating 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bunIMTGrVnE

But this kind of stuff never gets to international media.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is quickly deviating from any resemblance to an attempt to improve this particular article. I'm reading general political soapboxing and griping about who did what to whom. Concentrate on the topic at hand, please! SWik78 (talk) 21:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, you seriously need to cool down. Enough with the eeevil Serbs already, you can't actually believe this is all part of a Serb master plan? (heh, or can you?) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Statements

Before someone starts removing that section be aware that the quotes are properly sourced by reliable mainstream newspapers (Jutarnji list, Globus, Večernji list, and Feral Tribune). Removing sourced info is vandalism. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 01:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thinking of putting in something from 2008 Australian concert

Reading the article, I think it contains a far amount of Marko's actions and quotes which help get the point across to a reader. Therefore, to contribute to such, I was highly thinking of including something which happened to ME in his 2007/08 New Years concert in Sydney, Australia. This is my proposed contribution:

"At the 2007/08 New Years concert in Sydney, Australia, a young man expressed his respect for the band by running up on stage and praising Perkovic. As he was attemptedly ushered off stage by officials, he was pulled back by Perkovic and given a kiss of respect, taken literally by the fans as a promotion of Love and Care between Croatians during the war. He was thus highly praised by the large crowd for his actions."

Anyone can add/edit to it as they wish, I really just wanted to include it. It is a true story, it happened to me myself in January at the concert. Can I get some feedback/replies to this please? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domiy (talk • contribs) 07:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

(Yep.) Personal experiences and anecdotes? On an encyclopaedia? You won't mind if I remove it, would you? (its not sourced, anyway) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Everyone who is trying water down thompson needs to stop=

From a guy that has met the guy numerous times, been to many concerts before half the people here (even the ones defending him)even heard of him, I think I might have a clue. "Za Dom - Spremni!" Does not trace back to Ban Jelacic or any other Croatian viceroy, or symphony etc. In the opera "U Boj u Boj" no where does it say Spremni. "Za Dom Za Dom" can be traced back to Jelacic and "Spremni" can be traced back to King Kresimir, however "Za Dom Spremni" is strictly an Ustasa creation. The reason I am saying this is to open up the eyes of the Croatian people which defend such idiocy as being misinterpreted, instead of arguing that our WW2 history is very misinterpreted (easy way out)- we try to cut corners. This does not help. Every Croatian who reads this, start defending NDH and stop defending tid-bits about Thompson. Thompson is a great performer, great guy - all of the above, but don't try to white wash him so that we can enjoy his concerts, because it is not doing us any good in the history department. I can show anyone here that more than half of thompsons songs have a direct message about Ustase which is completely blind to nonCroats, yugo-Croats, or Croats who don't know much about Croatian history such as the ones defending him here. AP1929 (talk) 06:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

You could be his brother, AntePavelić1929, and you would still need corroboration. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 07:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits

Za dom spremni! Indeed the salute does date back to Ban Jelačić, but the fact remains that during WW2 (and later in SFR Yugoslavia) it's primary meaning would be as a fascist salute. This is unfortunate, but this is simply how things are. I am not denying the long heritage of the salute, but anyone who believes people will think of Ban Jelačić when they hear it, and not the NDH, is deceiving himself.

Račan. The actions of Ivica Račan were indeed instrumental to Croatia's independence, i.e. the collapse of the unified League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and, by extension, Yugoslavia itself. The Slovenian Party leadership would have been in a lot of trouble after their walkout without Račan's support. With his actions and as Croatia's "leader" during the first period of the dissolution, Račan certainly deserves the name "prominent leader in Croatia's push for independence". (I didn't add this, though, I just fixed the sentence structure)

Yugoslav wars. The Croatian war of independence is only one of what is known on Wikipedia as the "Yugoslav Wars". Propose a rename or something if you do not like the term. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 07:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Categories: WikiProject Croatia articles