Talk:Thomas Paine

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Contents

[edit] Archives

[edit] Participation in the American Revolution

I have read that Paine enlisted in the Continental Army and fought against the British. The article does not mention this. --213.140.21.227 (talk) 12:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A note on his last name

He was born Thomas Pain and thus his parents last name was Pain. He started spelling it Paine once he revealed himself to be "the Englishman" who wrote Common Sense. [1] --Sparkhurst 21:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I came across this:

In the church register of Euston Parish, near Thetford, England, occurs this entry: "1734. Joseph Pain and Frances Cocke were married June 20th." These were the parents of Thomas Paine. The present rector of Euston Church, Lord Charles Fitz Roy, tells me that the name is there plainly "Pain," but in the Thetford town-records of that time it is officially entered "Joseph Paine." [2]

--Sparkhurst 13:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Did he have a middle name, and does anyone know it? --65.103.137.45 20:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Most unlikely. Middle names were uncommon, among ordinary people in England, until the second half of the nineteenth century, when they became quite fashionable.
  • As to this discussion about the spelling of his surname, it's utterly irrelevant, bearing in mind that most people were illiterate until a century later. In a non-literate society, it's the pronunciation that's important, not the spelling. Spelling of a name could change many times during the course of a lifetime, depending on which literate person (usually a priest) happened to transcribe it. Kahuzi 22:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy of his Recanting

There are quite a few fundamentalist Christians that believe that Thomas Paine recanted his beliefs on his deathbed and converted to Christianity. Since this is such a wide-spread urban legend, I think maybe it should breifly be mentioned. Just a thought...

Any links or sources? --Sparkhurst 23:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/vindication_of_thomas_paine.html Byronarnold 21:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I have read that this recanting was proved false at some point in Christpopher Hitchen's biography of Paine, but I am unsure of a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zorkmid24 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Improvement

[edit] Proper place of para on Paine the inventor

The following paragraph was, in my opinion, misplaced at the end of the Early Life section. I moved it (minus the struck out part) to the bottom of the American Revolution section since the reason he went back to Europe was to seek a patent for his bridge.

Paine was also an inventor, receiving a patent in Europe for the single-span iron bridge. He developed a smokeless candle[1][2], and worked with John Fitch on the early development of steam engines. This aptitude for invention, coupled with his originality of thought, found him an advocate more than a century later in Edison who championed Paine and helped rescue him from his relative obscurity.

Any suggestions as to the best placement of this paragraph? --Sparkhurst 23:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last years

Obviously more needs to be added to the section as it stands now. Here is a paragraph I quickly wrote which could serve as a start, I suppose.

Paine returned to America during the early stages of the Second Great Awakening and a time of great political partisanship. The Age of Reason gave ample excuse for the religiously devout to hate him and the Federalists attacked him for his ideas of government stated in Common Sense, for his association with the French Revolution, and for his friendship with President Jefferson. Also still fresh in the minds of the public was his Letter to Washington, published six years prior to his return.

--Sparkhurst 00:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Has Tom Paine's Life ever been put into a movie?

Has there ever been made a biopic, a movie based on the Life of Thomas Paine? Thanks in adavance for the answer. 81.173.227.133 12:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)-- Robert

In short, no, there is no such movie
Richard Attenborough and Trevor Griffiths have been trying to make a movie since 1995, I seem to recall some test shots being taken in Thetford and Kings Lynn about 1997. In fact Trevor Griffiths has even published the script of the proposed screenplay [3]. I understand that a major problem is condensing so much history into a sensible length film, without making it too superficial - It probably needs a trilogy?
Arjayay (talk) 09:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Paine's remains

I'm curious - in "The Thomas Paine Reader" (Penguin, 1987) it says on p.27 that Paine's body was washed overboard on Cobbett's voyage home. Nothing about the bones still being in Cobbett's possession. On the wikipedia Cobbett page, it also says something about 'losing' the bones, but then goes with the 'still in his possessions' story. Anyone got any further information on this? 82.6.104.229 14:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The life of Thomas Paine (Moncure Conway Putnam 1892) which is the earliest full account of his life I've found so far says that the remains did arrive in Liverpool (on Novermber 21 1819) and even that the Bolton town crier was sent to jail for 9 weeks for announcing their arrival. It says that in 1836 the remains were passed into a receiver but when the Lord Chancellor refused to count them as an asset they sat for a while and by 1849 when the coffin they WERE in was in the possession of J. Chennell of Guildford it was empty. He does mention that a Unitarian Reverend Ainslie claimed he owned the skull and right hand of Thomas Paine but that he wouldn't answer any more questions. Other then that its just left as a mystery about where they went. He seems very certain that they neither washed ashore or are still in Cobbett's possession, unless of course he got them back down the road. Jamesofur 10:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diagram

I have uploaded a diagram representing the constitution of the United States as proposed by Thomas Paine in Common Sense. I request comments here in the hope of improving it before it is included in the Common Sense article.

Constitution of the United States as proposed by Thomas Paine in Common Sense
Constitution of the United States as proposed by Thomas Paine in Common Sense

-- Mathieugp 03:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I have inserted the diagram in the Common Sense article a few minutes ago. Discussions on it should should be conducted in the talk page of that article. -- Mathieugp 20:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bibliography

  1. 1995. Collected Writings, Eric Foner, ed. The Library of America. ISBN 1-883011-03-5
  2. 1998. Rights of Man, Common Sense, and Other Political Writings, ed. by Mark Philp. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-283557-2.
  3. 1976. Common Sense, Issac Kramnick, ed.
  4. 1948. The Life and Major Writings of Thomas Paine, 2 vols. Edited by Philip S. Foner.

This section of the bibliography looks dubious to me. Surely the focus shouldn't be on the recent editions of his works, but rather on when they were first published...Zigzig20s 17:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It is of course nice to know original publication information, but the bibliography is supposed to be a verification and research tool. Not many people have access to Paine originals and to include standard editions of his works, edited by major scholars in the field who have written on Paine, is the accepted practice in both the scholarly world and on wikipedia. I would prefer that the editors quote from easily accessible versions of Paine (in print) than from archived first editions that only very few people have access. A separate section detailing Paine's works and the first edition publication information might be more appropriate to assuage your concerns. Awadewit 17:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Ian Kramnick's book was re-published in 1995 and is popular in university's as a textbook. Eric and Phillip Foner (who i don't think are related but I'm not sure), the former is a contemporary 'expert' of sorts on Paine who has written alot on Paine. Phillip S. Foner's book is (i think) the only comprehensive collection of all of Paine's writings that focuses on "historically contextualizing' Paine's works. We should get rid of the Library database links that the public cannot access and replace them with reliable sources. Phillip Foner's book is in two volumes (I-II). --Savre (talk) 01:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fatal Logic Error


"At 19, Paine became a merchant seaman, serving a short time before returning to Great Britain in April 1759. There he set up a corset shop in Sandwich, Kent. In September of that year, Paine married Elizabth Ollive. His business collapsed soon after. His wife became pregnant, and, following a move to Margate, went into early labor and died along with her child"
+
"On 26 March 1771, at age 36, he married his landlord's daughter, Elizabeth Ollive."
=
Fatal Logic Error
Programmer8 21:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

No, simply a confusion between his first and his second wife. Emendavi. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, there is a math error

Born January 1737. In March 1771, he would be 34, not 36. Either the year of marriage or the age cited is incorrect. Unimaginative Username (talk) 00:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marxism

Why is Thomas Paine counted as a Marxist or member of the Marxist school? Would someone mind removing it if there is no answer?Homagetocatalonia 16:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

See Howard Fast. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link Request for Editor

The Thomas Paine Society

http://www.thomaspainesociety.org/

Thank you,

71.80.169.199 21:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute over Abolition article

The first article published in America advocating the emancipation of slaves and the abolition of slavery was written by Paine. Titled "African Slavery in America", it appeared on March 8, 1775 in the Postscript to the Pennsylvania Journal and Weekly Advertiser, more popularly known as The Pennsylvania Magazine, or American Museum.[12]

I'm currently reading Paine: Collected Writings by Eric Foner, and he suggests in the "chronology" section that the March 1775 article condemning slavery was NOT written by Paine. Foner states that "there is no evidence that Paine wrote [the] essay condemning slavery that appeard in the Pennsylvania Journal in march, although it is often attributed to him. This statement seems to contradict what is in the article. --CommonSense101 22:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early Life

Who, or what, was impoverishing his parents (first sentence)? Or is "impoverished" supposed to be an adjective, and not a verb. Mulp 18:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

"Impoverished", even as an adjective, seems to imply a process by which they were reduced to a state of poverty. Maybe they were just "poor". Bluewave 16:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Education

The first 2 sentences of "Early Life":- link farmers with uneducated people; his parents religion with being impoverished; and infers Paine was uneducated, before admitting he went to school.
Paine attended Thetford Grammar School from 1744 to 1749, according to the schools web-site [4] and the plaque on the school wall. The School was re-founded in 1566 but dates back to 1114.
Wikipedia's article on school states "Grammar school in the United States is used informally to refer to a primary school but in the United Kingdom means a school that selects entrants on their ability or aptitude"
Receiving an education until the age of 12 in the 1740's made Paine far more educated than most, as it was not until the Elementary Education Act 1870 that schooling to age 12 was a legal requirement, whilst attending the grammar school at all proves he had educated people around him.
Unless there is a justification for "uneducated" I suggest it is removed, and his schooling addedArjayay (talk) 13:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

My mistake - it was not until the Elementary Education Act 1880 that education became compulsory, and then only from the ages of 5 to 10.
Arjayay (talk) 11:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Age at second marriage

If Paine was born in January 1737, he would be 35 years old in March 1771, not 36. Psykomakia 17:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

No, he'd be 34. Unimaginative Username (talk) 00:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Paine, he lived life in the fast lane

Didn't he?--Ensto233 18:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure did. --Driscoll (talk) 01:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
agreed.--Savre (talk) 01:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Paine Cottage

The image at the bottom of the page isn't of Thomas Paine Cottage. I don't know what it is! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbk (talk • contribs) 18:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Paine the privateer, and legacy

I've amended the refertence to Paine's short career as a "merchant seaman" to a more accurate reference to his short career as a privateer. Its along time since I've read a biography so I used his reference to the experience in his writings as a citation....The biography I read mentioned that Paine saw action and was commended for valour, however as the present citation shows Paine was not proud of this episode of his life. He drew on it also for Common Sense without I think mentioning his personal connection. He says he went to sea at sixteen rather than nineteen, Ive left the age he enlisted vague until a source clarifies. From memory some other notable aspects of his life that deserve mention include his early opposition to slavery, writing a pamphlet denouncing the slave trade pretty much after landing in USA; and the allegations that as an excise officer he was "corrupt". The article does note that he kept a tobacco shop (a major smuggled commodity) and that he was sacked for a minor infraction but does not mention the alleged wider context of these facts. His relationship with Napoleon was also treated very briefly, the account I read had it that Napoleon wanted Paine to provide propaganda support for an invasion of England. It didn't happen but no fly on the wall of the meeting-room has clarified exactly why. Other matters of personality are not covered...some may argue that Paine's love of brandy and whores are not relevant, I'm inclined to think they are, I know a wikipedia article is necessarily sketchy but the personal details make it a colour sketch.

Bob Dylan wrote a fine song about Paine, its on Blood on the Tracks. He aslo appears in Childermass as a symbol I think of liberal humanism.

Or so I wrote; actually the Paine song is on John Wesley Harding(album), As I Went Out One Morning. 203.87.64.23 (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC) John Wesley Harding (album) Can't do nothing right today, thoguht I was logged in, previous talk in this section is mine, Jeremy (talk) 01:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

There are several sources that google finds. This one seems about as good as any (some of the ones I see have obvious flaws such as mismatches between age/date):
Common Sense and Related Writings
Tedickey (talk) 17:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

You might like to look at [5] which just went up. Of course there was ( I discover) another Thomas Paine who was a succesful privateer which confuses the issue. The 16/19 confusion seems to be because he first enlisted at 16 and was fetched back by his father, and enlisted on another privateer later. In any case his privateer experience is especially notable because he drew on it both directly and apaprently indirectly for a crucial part of Common Sense. Jeremy (talk) 05:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

He worked aboard a ship called the 'Terrible'. He ran away from home at 13 and at 16 was a privateer. --Savre (talk) 01:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Guaranteed Minimum Income

Ive put a citation tag on this sentence: Paine's proposal is now deemed a form of basic Income Guarantee. The reason is in two parts (1) I understand that the Guaranteed Minimum Income is in the US a specific proposal with specific associations (2) Paine's actual proposal seems as much a fore-runner of Georgism, of socialism, or of the welfare state. Anyway, I don't doubt that Guaranteed Minimum Income people claim him as a forerunner but a citation is needed, and the weasel word "deemed" should be lost. And many others claim him as a forerunner, including anarchists. (I would personally call Paine, taken all for all, a forerunner of social democracy albeit with an individualist streak. What he "would have been" if he lived in our own time is an interesting but finally unanswerable question).

It should be noted too, btw, that Paine was an "illuminist" in that he believed that people were not born with immortal souls but could develop them in life, its in Age of Reason I'll chase up the reference sometime, a view also attributed to Gurdjieff and Lisa Simpson Jeremy (talk) 01:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)