Talk:Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology

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Good article Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Contents

[edit] Stuyvesant

We are not mentioned anywhere in the Stuyvesant wikipedia article, why should they be mentioned in our first paragraph? --

[edit] Racism at

There are hardly any african americans at TJ.

There also was up until a few years ago the highly racist "Ghetto Day." This school event was mentionned in an article in a local Fairfax County newspaper, The Connection : Community Weighs in on TJ Admissions Recommendations intended to increase diversity at the magnet school spark intense feelings at a community meeting. by Brian McNeill June 23, 2004

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=34159&paper=81&cat=109


Where should I add the "Ghetto Day" thing in the article. I am thinking of adding it to the diversity but i am not sure. I believe it needs to be added to demonstrate the allegations of racism that have been directed against TJHSST.

To the best of my knowledge, this Ghetto Day did not exist or was not widely endorsed in the student body. Please check your sources. nwatson 23:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I am 100% sure it existed. Multiple people have confirmed it, but still it should not have been allowed at all by the administration at TJHSST. I also believe it was not widely endorsed by the student body but still it was allowed to exist, and that is even more proof of my point that racial bias probably exists somewhere in the TJHSST administration.
What the hell is this?? racism because there are hardly any blacks at TJ? It's an admissions process. It's not like there's a box that says "check here if you're black so we can make sure you don't get it". I would go so far as to guess that A) african americans are a minority in the counties that can go to TJ and that B) african americans are even more of a minority in those who apply to TJ. And don't think no one noticed the innocuous automatic tagging of ghetto day as highly racist. I myself do go to TJ and have no recollection of Ghetto Day as any sort of event, and cannot even begin to imagine the administration backing something like that. If you find me a record of a homecoming spirit day that was Ghetto Day (as homecoming spirit days are the only spirit days that are actually school spirit days) then you can call the administration as racist as you want. Give me a date and some names of the administrators who approved it and I'll believe you. Until then, keep your anonymous speculation to yourself. At any rate, calling "Ghetto Day" racist is, in itself, racist because guess what, you just made a racial slur that only african americans live in ghettos. Furthermore, I would speculate that the intent of ghetto day would be to mock people who are 'from the ghetto' like rappers who have ridiculous amounts of money, not those who are unfortunately stuck in bad conditions. Adding a section about "Racism at TJ" would only serve to be a biased, one sided libel of the school. And when I say libel, I mean it in the full legal sense. Calling the TJ administration racist on something as well known and public as wikipedia would just be a bad idea without some serious evidence, evidence that you are obviously lacking as you make only vague references to it. Finally, if you're going to say that in (pulling dates & names randomly here) the TJ Golf Team had a pre-game spirit day called Ghetto day in 1992 that was backed by whoever coached Golf then (I'm not even sure who coaches golf now or if they have a coach, again, just arbitrary choices), that's pathetic if you're going to say that's proof of an the administration being racist. Show me major school officials backing it and show me evidence that it's racist or don't waste my time with unbased accusations. P.S. if I sound angry, you're damn right I am.John R S 03:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Dude, grow up and just roll your eyes at stuff like this. Throwing a hissy fit like that just promotes the stereotype that TJ students are elitist douchebags. - ML
Even if there was a ghetto day, I wouldn't find it highly racist. Also, while I feel that the number of blacks at TJ is low, the black students are generally among the leaders in the classes and the most popular. While there aren't as many, they make a significant contribution to the school and are actually integrated into circles of friends. At other schools with "higher" diversity, you might walk into the lunchroom and see lunch tables divided by race. 68.100.115.135 22:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)KP
At the risk of pissing someone off, I want to point out that Race is not a non-factor (forgive the double negatives) at TJ. While I (as a TJ student) am very happy about the comparison between TJ and many other schools, I don't see the school as having achieved perfection. Just a thought. 70.166.152.3 02:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)B. Smith
During 4 years there, I saw nothing that even came close to a "Ghetto Day". You say it happened up until a few years ago, how about some more details from the multiple people who allegedly confirmed it? As for "racism", acceptance is based on an objective and blind (i.e. those involved never meet the students) process, so I fail to see how "racism" accounts for the demographics at the school. Further, even though African-American and Hispanic students have a lower percentage of the population, anyone who goes there will find that this is a moot point since ethnicity is a non-factor in student interactions at the school, as opposed, I'm guessing, to many other high schools.
Agreed. All the people who complain about diversity at TJ need to go spend a day there and see how much race matters to the students there: not at all. TK-925 22:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
More disconfirmation: during 1996-1999 I never heard of a Ghetto Day. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 14:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


I attended TJ 1998-2002. We had 'Ghetto Day' spirit days frequently. -'02grad

I was there '96-'00 and never heard a single word about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.87.20.98 (talk) 01:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm CURRENTLY attending TJ, class of 2011, and I've asked about it, apparently it's a myth. --Belugaperson 23:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] College Destination Websites

Those 2 and maybe 3 links have been discussed multiple times. They belong on this website, so stop deleting them.

[edit] Highest SAT score?

Can anyone corroborate the claim that TJHSST has the highest SAT score of any school in the country? It's not difficult to believe, but considering the competition - Stuyvesant and Exeter with averages of roughly 1400 - I'd like to make sure this isn't apocryphal. Thanks, JTM 22:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

2005 graduating class averaged exactly 1482 on the SAT.

2004 graduating class averaged something in the low 1490s.

as far as i know the 2004 average score was 1485 (tjhsst 2004 graduate here) -bigmak

~~Okay, well, if you get the FYI's from a website you can see that the average of TJ compared to the different schools of Fairfax County is quite high. And why does it matter? Do YOU go to TJ? -by the way, this is coming from a TJ student, so I guess it's a little biased

The official line from the TJHSST 2006-2007 Profile:

SAT Scores     Writing     Maths.   Critical Reading
----------------------------------------------------
TJHSST           701        737           717

Virginia         500        513           512

Nation           497        518           503

Hope this helps! -Amanda, Class of 08 (71.114.74.197 01:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Notable alumni?

I'm surprised no one has put this up yet: one of the big guys at Obsidian, Chris Avellone, graduated from TJ in 89. A grad (Darius Kazemi) who came back to talk about career in video games mentioned him, but not his name. I don't know if he went to the school for S&T, but I assume so, because that was the year of the first graduating class, according to other charts in this section. If it needs citing, it's on his MySpace page (much as I hate to use MySpace) and a French video gaming site, but that would probably be useless for English readers. -Amanda, Class of 08 (71.114.74.197 01:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC))

What are we going to do about people that attended TJHSST while it was TJHS?

Hmm. See my explanation below from two months ago. I guess what I should have said more clearly is that TJHSST *was not ever* TJHS. They are two entirely different schools that happned to be in the same building at different times. Scott Norwood, for example, should *not* be listed in this article, as he has no connection to THJSST. It makes no more sense than to talk about Nixon's staff in an article about the Carter Administration: they're unrelated. If this article were titled "Notable Buildings on Braddock Road," then there'd be a connection, but it's titled TJHSST. I propose to remove Norwood, and anyone else who attended only TJHS from this article -- TJHS should have its own entry, and they should be listed there. Thesmothete 04:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I haven't seen any discussion contradicting this approach, so I have removed the two individuals who did not attend TJHSST. Again, they did not "attend TJHSST when it was not a magnet school" TJHSST was never not a magnet school. There was another school that existed both before and at the same time as TJHSST in the same building with a similar name, but it had different faculty, a different principal, different gratuation requirements, and different students. TJ and TJHSST were two entirely different schools, and an alumnus of one is not an alumnus of the other. Thesmothete 16:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
There are actually three categories. I attended TJHSST when it was first opening as a participant in the "Senior Experience Program", a one year program that did not result in a diploma (you went back to your old high school to graduate, much like a year abroad). While TJHSST was opening, TJHS was in simultaneous operation -- two schools under one roof. As 400 freshman to TJHSST were admitted each year during the startup, there were about 75, 45, and 120 students admitted to the senior experience program. Because the schools were operating simultaneously, it really isn't correct to treat the one as a successor-school to the other -- it's not like it just got renamed. The students and faculty for TJHS were all moved, indeed (and this is pretty harsh) the entire class of 1988 from TJHS was moved to Annandale for *their* senior year, even though they hadn't attended previously.

For other schools, a person is treated as an alumnus whether or not they graduated, but not whether or not they attended. TJHS should have it's own (linked) Wikipedia entry with it's own alumni listing -- I'm sure there are several notables besides the one currently listed on this site. And here on this site, only people who attended (whether or not they graduated) from TJHSST should be included. Here is a table of the transition:

TJHSST TJHS Annandale HS (note!)
1985-86 400 freshman + about 75 SEP only Sophmores-Seniors normal operation
1986-87 400 soph, 400 fresh 45 SEP only Juniors-Seniors normal operation
1987-88 400 jr, 400 soph, 400 fres, 120 SEP closed accepted about 500 TJS seniors for 1 year + graduation
1988-89 normal operation, graduated 1st class closed normal operation

NOTE: Annandale's district was expanded after 1985 to include TJHS's boundaries for incoming freshmen. Thesmothete 14:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a section on the differences between TJHSST and TJHS should include something of this discussion. Of course I did not read the history well enough to know that this does not exist so this might be a pointless comment. 70.166.152.3 02:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)B. Smith
24.250.119.145 reverted this without posting anything in this talk section, which would have been helpful to the thread. I have edited the entry to make it more accurate, athough I still maintain that Thomas Jefferson High School is not the subject of the article, which is entitled "Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology". What happened is NOT like adjusting the radar on a ship. A high school is not a building, it is an instution of learning. A ship is a piece of metal (or wood, etc.), not the crew that happens to run it. A ship can have no people and it's still a ship. Not so for a school building -- a building can be a school for a while and then be something else (like an office) and then be a school again. If you demolish the building (as often happens) and move the students and teachers and principal to a new building, they are the same high school. Similarly, if you move the students, the principal and the teachers away (as was done with TJHS) and put new, different students, principal and teachers, with a new accreditation certificate, then it is a different school. If it were the same school it would not have needed a new accreditation certificate. But it was not the same school, it was a new school. The better analogy to replacing the radar on a ship is to say that it's like a new restaurant moving in where the old restaurant used to be. If you meet your future spouse in a TGIFriday's in a building that later housed a McDonald's, and you never went to Bennigans, you don't say you met your spouse at Bennigans when it was TGIFriday's, or that the McDonald's manager was nice to you that day or whatever. A wikipedia article about the McDonald's would not also be about the TGIFridays. Likewise, you would never say "Bob was once a guest of the family that lives next door to me, when it was a different family". Now, if this article were about the school building, then I could see discussing both institutions that have been housed in it, but then I'd also expect to see discussion about the architecture and building materials etc. But a person cannot be an alumnus of a building-- they can only be an alumnus of a school. And the accredited school that was TJHSST was different than the accredited school that people attended before 1985 AND from the one that some people attended until 1987. Indeed, some people at TJ transferred with FCPS to TJHSST and transferred back. How can you transfer from a school to itself? It's impossible. You can only transfer from one school to another school. If there were two principals in the building at the same time (as there were for 3 years) I don't see how one could fairly say they were the same school.
I respectfully encourage 24.250.119.145 to respond here, so we can amicably resolve this difference of opinion and come to consensus. Thesmothete 19:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is another table that may be helpful to the discussion:

Same at both schools Different for each school (even during the 3 years both were open together)
Name X
Principal X
Teachers X
Students X
Accreditaion X
Curriculum/Required Courses X
Building X
Street Address X
Secretaries, Assistant Principals, etc. X
Library X

Thesmothete 05:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I just added a new entry for the old Thomas Jefferson High School -- it deserves its own page. I've linked alumi alumni to that new page. Thesmothete 21:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that there are any, but it would be an interesting sectin. (I think I heard two TJ alumni recently wrote a book.)

That would be The Rule of Four, a NYT bestseller by TJ alumni Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason.

Another alumnus, Ivana Ma, was recently on The Apprentice. When she came to speak at TJ she also mentioned someone in her class who is now a famous broadway actor or something along those lines.

She was probably referring to Jose Llana, who has been in Rent, The King and I, and Flower Drum Song, among other shows. I'd look up what class he was in, but http://www.tjhsstalumni.org/ isn't loading. Shadowsong 00:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dont forget former Nirvana drummer and Foo Fighters front man Dave Grohl. His bio says he went to Bishop Ireton, but I know he went to TJ for a time. If you are doubtful check out the year books in the the TJ library during his high school years. Twelvethirteen 20:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Funny - I just added a section on alumni last week before seeing this discussion! I got all of those except for Jose Llana. ldw

The guys who made Kings of Chaos went to TJ.

Yes, I think they graduated in 2004.
Yes, they graduated class of 2004. 3 went to MIT and 1 went to GMU. I'm friends with all 4. -bigmak

[edit] Other

The article mentions that TJ is "one of a very few high school computing facilities with a supercomputer." What other high schools have one? I thought that TJ was the only high school with a supercomputer.

To my knowledge it is, but supercomputer can be a debatable term at times. Also, while I'm pretty sure that TJHSST is the only high school with a supercomputer right there, there are other schools out there where students have access to supercomputers. 68.100.68.23 00:14, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Who cares if they have access to supercomputers? If we are the only one with a supercomputer, we are the only one with a supercomputer, no matter if others just have access to one. And yes, the term may be debateable, but has any one debated it?
Well, for example, have you ever seen the plaque that showed the recognition that TJHSST was the only high school that had a computer that could process more than one million calculations a second? That was from 1988 and judging from what I'm typing at today, that'd be laughable. The main problem is proving that no other high school has one; I find that doubtful, but difficult to demonstrate. 68.100.68.23 02:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I live in northern VA. There super computer is old and is probably not considered a "supercomputer (thought we could use this info 70.166.152.3 02:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)B. Smith)" anymore. I also read once that the current "supercomputer" is their second one the first one was damaged by a water leak in the ceiling.
Yes, our first supercomputer was damaged by a roof leak. The article has said this for a long while now. Have you ever read it? Also, the current Cray supercomputer, while old and slow, is still "considered a supercomputer." The term "supercomputer" is somewhat ambiguous, but generally, a computer once called a supercomputer always will be. nwatson 23:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how anybody is arguing saying that tj doesn't have a supercomputer or it shouldn't qualify. go walk around the school--the syslab has a supercomputer, it's sitting right there! who cares if it's older--cray personnel came out to tj to set it up! it's a supercomputer! /end argument. -bigmak
P.S. -- it's not as slow as people say it is. Trust me. You have to design the program for it, and the main bottleneck is the hard drive. It really pwnz with matrices, especially. 68.100.68.23 07:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I've been told it hasn't been turned on in a year or two because for everything but vector stuff it's slower than desktops. I haven't confirmed this though. I can check. --Belugaperson 23:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I added the section on the USAMO for 2004. Could anyone care to check if TJHSE has more USAMO qualifiers than any other high school for previous years?

Source: http://www.unl.edu/amc/e-exams/e8-usamo/e8-1-usamoarchive/2004-ua/04usamoqualstate.html

Yes, since 2000 (1999 it only tied for most).

I took out the part on froshmores; it was irrelevant to that paragraph and I really don't see the point of including it in this article.
Mote 18:54, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I go to this school and I've never heard any rumor of relocation to GMU. What our school (TJHSST) has done recently is forged a partnership with George Mason, the specifics of which have yet to be determined by the two schools' administrations. I took out the paragraph that described this rumor.

You haven't been paying attention, then. There was a big thing about this in local media (maybe just TJToday) near the end of last year.
Mote 21:31, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm an alumnus of TJHSST, and at my class' recent 15 yr reunion, Dr. Lodal mentioned that there are discussions with GMU wherein GMU would give the school 70 acres in Fairfax, and assist in building a new facility. The current 40 acre school site in Alexandria would then be sold to help with the cost of the relocation.

A new facility built for the purpose of being a math/science high school would far outweigh the current facility, wedged into a 40 year old building that predates computers, and had no airconditioning in the mid-ninteeneighties when it opened.

A Fairfax location would also be much more centrally located relative to the total geographic area where the student come from than the current west Alexndria/east Annandale location is.

Posted by dcseain at 04:28 UTC on 16 Nov 2004

I hadn't heard the whole 70 acre thing but the relocation to GMU while the building is being renovated is a very common rumor 70.166.152.3 03:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)B. Smith

I edited the page in two places to reflect that the school is located in the Alexandria area of Fairfax County, rather than the previous "Alexandria, VA," which may be misleading to those unfamiliar with the vagaries of postal addressing conventions in Northern Virginia. --17:47, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] RollBack:

I was unsure whether to roll back or not. I moved it here to talk to perserve it. Further edits were increasingly suspect.

TJHSST has fielded more National Merit Semifinalists than any other high school in America for most of the 1990s and 2000s; this is, however, partly due to the relatively low National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test (NMSQT) cutoff in Virginia. From 2000 to 2005, it fielded more USAMO qualifiers than any other high school in America. -Tznkai

I agree with your rollback, pending a verifiable source for the information. --BaronLarf 20:25, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

This is more of an organizational thing, but shouldn't the infobox for tj moved higher up in the article? Most of the college and high school articles (or most articles for that matter) have the infobox as the first piece of multimedia content. --Moki80 02:45, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] National Merit Semifinalists

I changed the sentence about national merit semifinalist numbers to remove the qualifier that one of the reasons for the high number from TJ is the low score required for Virginia residents. From the most recent selection indices the following state-by-state cutoff ranking shows that Virginia is one of the HARDEST states to qualify in: 1) (tie) Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, DC -- 222 5) (tie) Virginia, Connecticut -- 220 7) Delaware -- 219 8) (tie) Georgia, New York, Vermont -- 218 National "Commended" Score: 202 from http://hseagle.sas.edu.sg/hscounseling/Tests/NMSCindex.htm

That says to me that it is incorrect to state that Virginia is easier than other states. If someone has contradictory information, please provide it. -- Andrew

Yeah...taken fron the national merit thing in wikipedia (I was too lazy to check the sources): "for the 2007 competition (2005 PSAT), minimum scores required for Semifinalist recognition ranged from 204 in Mississippi to 224 in Massachusetts, with an unweighted mean of 215." The cutoof for V this year was 220, clearly on the high end. Eowbotm1 17:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Highest AP Scores

TJHSST was cited as having the highest-performing AP Biology, AP Calculus BC, AP Chemistry, AP English Language and Composition, AP French Language, AP Government and Politics: U.S., AP Psychology and AP U.S. History courses among all schools worldwide in its size range. No school had a greater proportion of its student body succeed in these subjects.

Can anyone cite a source confirming this? Also, it seems like the last sentence should either read "No school had a greater portion of its student body succeed in these subjects on the AP." or be eliminated, since it does seem redundant.


we got that award sometime last year, i think it might have been the washington post that reported it. you could ask a librarian. -Jordan

They actually have required AP courses (AP US History, AP Government, and AP English) Junior and Senior year. (By required, I mean they tell people that not enough people will sign up for the regular classes to form a full class, which is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.) Some people beleive the administration lied about the number of people who signed up so they wouldn't have regular classes, however this has not (to my knowledge) been proven.

The Washington Post article cited the National AP Report for 2005. -Sam

The AP count has now been updated to reflect the AP scores from 2005. Stats taken from the AP Report 2006. Olorin28 04:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Has this been updated for the 2006 AP tests? If so, what is the source?

[edit] Vandalism

Please don't vandalize. --Dante Alighieri | Talk, J Train 04:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC), Jsherwood

[edit] High School Infobox

Anyone wish to create a HS Infobox? I'm somewhat unfamiliar with the concept myself. TheyCallMePanda 20:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] TechMUN

I don't think it should be merged. While TJ is a big part of TechMUN, I don't think that TechMUN is a big part of TJ. 68.100.115.135 22:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)KP

I completely agree. The addition of the TechMUN page would be one of the longest sections of the article and would therefore be out of place. Also, TechMUN deserves its own page. One solution would be a TJMUN page, incorporated in which would be the TechMUN page. What does everyone think?

It doesn't matter much to me. TJMUN and TechMUN both deserve mentions on the TJ page, but I think they both deserve more in a different place. Whether or not the other two are merged makes no difference to me. 68.100.115.135 22:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)KP

[edit] Distinctions

Maybe add a note about Al Gore being the commencement speaker for the 1999 graduation? It was right before he ran for president, so it was pretty news-worthy at the time.

Then how about we make a note about the commencement speaker for 2004--some NASA scientist (JPL maybe?) who had a line to the effect of "men will go to Mars while women stay home watching over the family". -bigmak

hahaha, he was talking about Francis Drake and said "you will go on to be the next Drakes....and Drakes' wives." - 2004

Didn't a scientist - Francis Collins or something similar to that - visit TJ last school year (2004-2005ish)? The Biotech club invited him and he gave a speech... it was a spread article (or whatever the technical term is) in one of the TJ Todays, so yeah... Einmonim

[edit] japanese prime minister visit to tjhsst (Mori Yoshiro)

I think this should be added to the section on tj visitors, but i'm not sure how to address it. It happened sometime during the school year 2000-2001. He came into my tech9 class (with a full escort of US secret service and personal security). He also had Japanese media in tow. If we add it, we should also mention how our brilliant (*cough*) principal Mrs. Lodal picked up a Sony camcorder and proceeded to tell him that "this is Japanese, we have lots of Japanese things here".

A mention of his visit to TJHSST can be found here http://publications.tjhsst.edu/tjtoday/2000/article.phtml?ed=March%202003&i=549 -bigmak


[edit] Diversity edit

I don't like it. I think it is biased towards those who think that TJ is not diverse. The previous edit maintained that TJ is diverse, but that certain minorities aren't well-represented. I'm in favor of a revert. KevinPuj 17:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)KevinPuj

I favor a revert as well, and also because the new section is competely riddled with grammatical errors. Olorin28 23:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

More than anything else, I think this section makes much too big a deal about things. In what place hasn't this come up at some point or another? Why are we mentioning it specifically here? nwatson 22:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Because people keep whining about it at the school board ( :P ). If it didn't keep popping up so much as an issue in public forums like our newspapers and such, you surely would not see it here. -68.100.68.23 23:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a comment that despite the unfair citation about the "Asian remarks", Principal Lodal was the primary proponent of a more diverse TJ. She was blasted in editorials, sent death threats, and railed by parents for her support of greater diversity at TJ. --Spants 02:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Er... no. I don't know where you got the "death threats" thing, although I certainly don't know everything. Furthermore, she was railed at by parents because of her derogatory remarks, not because she supported greater diversity. Where's the connection here?

[edit] Retirement of Mrs. Lodal

This section needs editing. In order is an explanation of her "derogatory racial remarks" and perhaps the context in which they were made (I am by no means justifying what she said, but let's try to be fair). Also worth mentioning is the position she recieved on some national education board as one of the few educators from Virginia. The article implies that the "racist" comments and the retirement was a cause-and-effect affair, but there is more to the story that needs to be said. Someone who knows more about the situation should update the page. Wclark3 23:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


I agree, what a ridiculous comment to make. I think that these events are not linked at all; Mrs. Lodal would've taken this new job had she or had she not said what she said. Whoever wrote this either should do some research or learn to write so as to not clearly link two topics that are only tangentially related, at best. -Pumper--Pumper 00:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we delete the section outright. We have no source for the purported remarks, and the mere retirement of an ordinary principal isn't worth recording. -Will Beback 00:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the above statement. If nothing else, though, it should be moved out of the "awards and distinctions" section and placed in a more relevant location. Wclark3 00:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)wclark3

If nobody presents any major objections, I'm going to delete that section in 24 hrs. Wclark3 14:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Instead of deleting it outright, I think we should just get rid of the "Derogatory remarks" part and simply have Lodal announce her retirement. For the TJ community, this is obviously big news.

The section on Mrs. Lodal's retirement is now under "recent developments" instead of "awards and distinctions." In addition, it does not mention anything about her "racial comments" and also links to the Education Commission of the States website. Wclark3 19:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Why do people keep going back to the Asian thing? At least put it in a separate section or something.Wclark3 17:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems that despite the dialogue, nothing has been changed about Lodal's retirement on the page - the retirement still seems linked to the loosely-researched (and probably inflamatory) Post article about the "Asian" remarks - seems utterly innapropriate, particularly considering her exemplary service to Fairfax County and our country's public schools for 40+ years. Spants 02:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this really a noteworthy section? Every school has principal turnover. MlleDiderot 03:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] College Acceptance Rates

this year, Princeton actually took over 20 people, and this statistic was corrected.

[edit] Eric F. no longer youngest WSOP champ

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/news/story?id=2522305

[edit] College acceptance rates

The use of the phrase "Ivy League-caliber" is fairly vague and misleading. It would be more accurate, imo, to say something along the lines of "x% of graduates attend schools ranked in the top 20 in U.S. News and World Report, with x% attending the eight colleges that make up the Ivy League."

I agree. It's clear that some Duke-bound TJ grad edited Duke in. KevinPuj 03:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

the list of colleges desperately needs to be cleaned up. everyone passing by seems to edit in their college of choice. anyone want to be bold and edit the section? stolenbyme 23:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seife?

He's being ignored on purpose, by accident, or by vandalism? -s —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.196.195.49 (talk • contribs) .

Who's Seiffe? ~a (user • talk • contribs) 23:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Nurrrrk. Charles Seife? "Zero" guy that a lot of people disliked? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.196.195.49 (talk • contribs) .
Ok. Then I'd have to say he's being ignored "by accident". He wrote a book that TJ students were required to read. Then he spoke in some assembly. What more would one say about him on the article for TJ? ~a (user • talk • contribs) 18:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Nothing, he's not important to the school. KevinPuj 01:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too Long, filled with trivia

Mandy Moore's visit? C'mon!! This is an encyclopedia, NOT a newsletter! And who are these "notable alums"?!Hillsboro 18:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Mandy Moore is notable. Specifically which notable alum(s) do you have a problem with and why? ~a (user • talk • contribs) 18:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Many of these visits were mentioned in the Wall Street Journal article. That seems to add notability to me. http://online.wsj.com/google_login.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB115672841445646981.html%3Fmod%3Dgooglenews_wsj KevinPuj 04:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say Mandy Moore wasn't notable, just her visit to this school! Should I put Bill Cosby's visit to my school on its page? And I think notables should have their own wiki page, and be old enough to drink, at least! :) Hillsboro 20:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'm quite inclined to agree with hillsboro here. And not only with Mandy Moore. There seem to be a lot of things listed in the entry that, while factual, really have nothing to do with the school as a whole. They are just one or two sentence statements, such as the one about...was it some french guy? I don't remember at the moment, but it just said that he came, and talked to some classes, and that was it. And stuff like that is throughout the article, where there are things that certainly were notable in terms of then, but have nothing to do with the school as a whole.Eowbotm1 00:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that notables should have their own wikipage, but I disagree that they should have a wikipage before they can be listed on this page. To be here, they should deserve their own wikipage. Thesmothete 01:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I think one of the things about the visit from the French ambassador is that the Secretary of Education came as well. I was told that was a very big deal, but I'm not sure. Does anyone believe it is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.161.142 (talk) 23:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Failed GAC

I failed this article due to the fact that there are no references.Some P. Erson 18:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sports section

IMO, the sports section seems like it needs more organization. It just seems like someone from each half-decent team at TJ stuck in a few sentences about their sport and left it at that. Also, I don't know who put in the bit about track and field, but our team is not phenomenal (at least, it does not compete at the same level as our cross-country and crew teams). Since the only stats I know about for certain are XC, I'll put them here. Hopefully other people from other teams can add to this list and then the section can get some real editing done.

XC - Virginia state champs (2002 + 2004), state runner-ups (2003 + 2005), northern region champs (2002 + 2003 + 2004), northern region runner-ups (2001 + 2005), numerous district championships

Wclark3 20:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA nomination

Criteria for a Good Article 1. It is well written.

  • You have run-on paragraphs.
Your first paragraph, for instance, 1) describes the subject, and defines the student body 2) describes magnet schools, 3) compares this school to a laundry list of others, and 4) lists organizations the subject is part of. That logically should be four paragraphs, and some would choose five, splitting 1) into two paragraphs.
  • It's not just run-on paragraphs, but run-on sentences.
Example: "This means, if your GPA is low, you can still get into the semifinal pool with a high Admissions Test Score, but on the other hand, if your GPA is high and you aren't a good test taker, you can still get into the semifinal pool."
  • Poor phrasing, such as "aren't a good test taker".

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect: (a) it provides references to any and all sources used for its material

  • Your nomination suggests you've improved in this area. If that's true, keep going.
For instance, "TJHSST has fielded more National Merit Semifinalists than any other high school in America for most of the 1990s and 2000s. From 2000 to 2005, it fielded more USAMO qualifiers than any other high school in America and has a distinguished history of U.S. Physics Olympiad Team members and medal winners." How do you know that?
For instance, "For schools with more than 1,000 students, TJHSST was cited as having the highest-performing AP Calculus BC, AP Chemistry, AP French Language, AP French Literature, AP Government and Politics: U.S., and AP U.S. History courses among all schools worldwide in its size range. No school had a greater proportion of its student body succeed in these subjects." How do you know that?
Example: "In the Winter of 2001, Rev. Jesse Jackson visited the school. He gave a speech to the entire student body about the recent 9/11 attacks and the need for unity among the people of the nation. His speech culminated in Jackson leading the student body in a chant of his famous line, "I am somebody."" How do you know that?
"In 2005, Ambassador Jean-David Levitte visited the school. He gave a speech to the French and government classes." How do you know that?

The verifiability policy says that encyclopedia content must be verifiable, not to be good, but even to be acceptable. What you have here is original research, which is prohibited.

The fact that someone slapped a cleanup tag on your infobox suggests you may have accuracy problems as well.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

  • You've got many red wikilinks. If you are providing a link to Evan M. Glazer, that indicates that you think he's worthy of an article of his own, instead of providing the details in this article - and frankly, I don't see any wikilinks that should have more detail here, rather than on their own page. However, the detail needs to be somewhere and if the wikilinks are red, you haven't the coverage you should be offering. The pages don't need to be War and Peace in length, but they need to at be at least a paragraph or two in length.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

  • You've got a tough job with this one. You wouldn't be working on the article if you didn't favor the school. You wouldn't meet everyone's NPOV standards, so I would advise you not to get lax, but I would give you a passing score in this area.

5. It is stable, i.e. it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of ongoing edit wars.

  • You've had quite a few edits in the last month, but I note that many of them are minor formatting changes, or vandalism reverts. I'd give you a passing score in this area.

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

  • You're OK here. However, strengths in one area can overcome minor deficiencies in other areas, and this is an area where you could easily improve. Pictures with people in them are stronger images than logos, or pictures of a building, so a shot of someone shaking hands with Jesse Jackson, a cheerleader being hoisted ten feet in the air, a group of musicians jumping with joy as they receive scores at a competition, that sort of thing, would humanize the article, and even boring pictures will break up the masses of grey text.

I suspect you have an interesting school, buried under all the text. It'd be nice to see the article with great pictures and sparkling text, showing why this school is special. Keep working on it! ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 01:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stuyvesant High School -- FA status

I note that Stuyvesant High School has just become a featured article. Perhaps we can look to that article as an example of how to improve this article and make it even more, um, excellent. Thesmothete 04:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Alumni

I disagree with edits by 24.250.98.107 and 171.67.73.10. They removed Kings of Chaos creators, whose project has its own Wikipedia page, Rhodes scholars, and a world-class cross country athlete, but kept the "Laziest Man in America"? I think we need to go through the whole list as it was before removals and discuss who's notable and who isn't. I'm not going to revert, because I have already done it wants and don't want to start an edit war.KevinPuj 19:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with some of the anonymous edits, but not with some of the others. I've included the links I thought should be deleted (they've all been re-added since). Feel free to reply. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 03:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Christopher Wells and Nicholas Shelley
    • remove from article - There are 32 Rhodes scholars every year. If these are the only two people from TJ that have a Rhodes Scholarship I would be very surprised. Although I agree that the scholarship is prestigious, not every Rhodes scholar is notable. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 03:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for Notable Alumni

I invite commentary on the following proposal for deciding which alumni to include in the TJHSST notable alumni list:

Proposal: Use the same criteria for notability that is used in Wikipedia:Notability (people).

In other words, an alumnus should be listed if they would qualify for their own Wikipedia article, and not otherwise. By implication, that would mean that every entry deserved their own link, whether red or blue. Thesmothete 16:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apple Federal Credit Union

I think it is not nearly notable enough to get a paragraph. It deserves possibly one part of a sentence. Any comments? KevinPuj 01:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What is it? The paragraph doesn't even really say. Is it a branch that operates out of TJ? Is it a branch that operates near TJ? Is it even a real bank branch? I've removed the "Girish Rajagopalan" part and I'll agree that we should remove more depending on what the hell it is. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 16:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Small Satellite Build

I think we should add something in about this: http://www.orbital.com/Template.php?Section=News&NavMenuID=32&template=PressReleaseDisplay.php&PressReleaseID=581 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.88.159.105 (talk) 00:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


[edit] Obscenely Long

The whole article is WAY too long and most of it is pointless and irrelevant to an encyclopedia. I don't even know where to start with this, but somebody needs to cut about 75%.

Why? If information is verifiable and doesn't violate WP:NOT there is no reason not to include it. — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 21:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

if every article followed that advice, you'd see 200 page articles. the fact remains, this article is full of pointless minutia that most articles don't have.

[edit] Retirement of Elizabeth V. Lodal Edits

Ok, I've made some changes conflicting with another user's changes and I'd like to explain them here. 1. The title of the section is more appropriately named "Retirement" because it is part of "Recent Developments". Her "Tenure" is not recent; her retirement is. 2. I believe the current revision does not imply that the controversy of the Asian/cheating remarks caused her retirement. I believe it factually and chronologically states what happened with sourced statements from a reputable source. 3. I believe that the news coverage of these events verify their notability and make them worth inclusion in the TJHSST article. KevinPuj 00:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The version up at the moment appears to be almost apologetic to Lodal:

"During Lodal's last year, the difficulty of serving as a public official in a high visibility school was driven home by the fact that although hundreds of important events occurred during her last year at TJ, some in the school's Asian community focused on a single event: the fact that during the year, Lodal publicly confirmed that some cheating and theft that had recently occurred at TJ involved predominantly Asian students."

Followed by...

"Over 20 letters to the Washington Post and others protested an unfair Washington Post story about the incident, especially its headline (the reporter had never interviewed Lodal for her comments, among other problems)."

This language does not strike me as objective. Before this "edit war" began, the version read

"In a letter sent to the superintendent of schools Jack D. Dale, Principal Elizabeth V. Lodal announced her retirement effective July 31, 2006[10]. This occurred not long after Lodal publicly associated Asian students with cheating and theft that had recently occurred at TJ. After mounting pressure, Principal Lodal issued an apology[11]. In an interview, she stated that her retirement had nothing to do with her remark regarding Asians. Lodal is now serving as a delegate from Virginia on The Education Commission of the States. Dr. Evan M. Glazer, former director of Roanoke Valley Governor's School for Science and Technology, was chosen as her replacement." [1]

This is a neutral look at the event, it provides facts without taking sides. I reverted the section to this version, and I recommend that before the controversial version is restored, a discussion occurs as there clearly has not yet been any argument put forward for using the language which, on face value, strikes me as loaded. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
That version is not bad, but I believe something more closely resembling this one[2] will be more complete and slightly more objective, save for the citation I'm awaiting from User:Jmlodal. KevinPuj 15:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Given the citation, this appears to be a neutral look free from loaded language. ~Rangeley (talk) 16:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Do any concerns still remain, and if so what are they? ~Rangeley (talk) 20:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"This section that is continually reverted by an interested party is false, defamatory, and irellevant." Jlodal, please always assume good faith. Assume that all the editors re-adding the paragraph are editors that think the information is useful, true, and sourced. I don't even know who Lodal is, but I would re-add the section because the sources are all there. What exactly about the section is false or defamatory? ~a (user • talk • contribs) 21:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Notable" Alumni

This section is, in my opinion, full of not-so-notable alumni. Anyone can become notable for whatever reason. The notable alumni section should highlight the strengths of the school in academics and related areas. For example, neither Greg Harrell-Edge (deemed the "Laziest Man In America" by the TV show Jimmy Kimmel Live) nor Conor Lastowka (founder of National High Five Day) should be there. Neither is well heard of and neither has a significant accomplishment. I am sure there are others, but these are just examples. -Vamooom 19:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Work In Progress

I'll be working on this page here. Feel free to discuss it! --mrholybrain's talk 02:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Assessment as of March 2007

Hello all, and thank you for contributing to this school site. I'm part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Schools/Assessment team, and, as requested, I'm reviewing this page. I'm currently giving it a grade of B on the Wikipedia 1.0 Assessment Scale and an importance of High on this importance scale.

My reasoning is as follows: This article is extensive, and fairly well cited. Could easily be GA or above if peer review advice is followed. Adam McCormick 06:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

Overall, the article is well-structured and the major content areas and subsections are reasonably complete. It does not pass the verifiability criteria however. There are major sections with little to no references, and some major statements that are uncited. For example:

  • "Of the approximate 2500 freshmen who apply, only about one in five are admitted." (actually, the whole paragraph is unverified).
  • "During the 2004/2005 school year, the black student population of TJHSST was 1.24% and the Hispanic population was 2.42%."
  • The 'NASA downlink' and 'Bulent Atalay's visit' sections.
  • 'Apple Federal Credit Union Colonial Branch Established'
  • The whole section on 'School features and activities'
  • "The Colonials have been recognized for their strong crew, cross country, track and field, tennis and swim and dive teams." They have? By whom? What newspaper articles? Any local journals?
  • "Colonials crew has been a dominating force in Virginia rowing, winning 10 of the last 11 boys eight varsity state titles."
  • Many of the notable alumni have no references, either.

The subsection on NCSSSMST is awkward, and doesn't adequately describe the program. It would help to explain (a) what the 2007 NCSSSMST conference is and (b) what is the significance of said conference.

The external links section seems a bit redundant. It looks like most of the links are actually departments or organizations of the school, so you could reduce that to one link to the school's main website. Let users go to their website and then find organizations and departments within that site. The 'Unofficial Report on Admissions' link would probably be better if used as an inline citation to back up some of the unreferenced admissions information mentioned earlier.

As a secondary issue (not really important for GA status), most of the images in the article seem to be logos of various departments within the school, with one photos of the welcome sign to the campus. While logos are generally considered fair use, it might be more helpful to include actual photos of various parts of campus, or of events and activities on campus.

Hope this helps the article in its development. Cheers! Dr. Cash 02:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 04:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Loudoun Seal.jpg

Image:Loudoun Seal.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 05:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TJ Userbox

I made a userbox for people who attend TJ. You can find it here. Put it on your page if you want, complain about my color choices, utterly ignore this, whatever. --FlamingSilmaril Talk\Contribs 20:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Pwcs logo blue.jpg

Image:Pwcs logo blue.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It's transcluded as part of the Template:Prince William County Public Schools template, which recently had its own Free Use Rationale added to the image page. Do we need another rationale, or is that one enough? --FlamingSilmaril 22:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:JeffersonColonials.gif

Image:JeffersonColonials.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 17:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)