Talk:Thomas Becket

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 Thomas Becket was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: May 1, 2007
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[edit] Source

My source for the legends connected with Becket is Folklore, Myths and Legends of Britain (London: The Reader’s Digest Association, 1973), p. 205 (Otford); p. 208 (Strood). Not sure if I need to put this on the page of the main article. --Polylerus 06:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ghost

[edit] Title?

If the "à" wasn't a part of his name, shouldn't the article be moved to just Thomas Becket? (I admit I'm only asking because I saw it on QI the other night, but it's still a valid question.) SJO (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Moved to his non-anachronistic title on his feast day. – Kaihsu 15:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
WELL IN CANTURBURRY TALES BY GEOFFERY CHAUCER, HE USES THE A'. SO..................WHO KNOWS


Can anyone find a reference that verifies that St Thomas à Becket is incorrect? A mention on the television programme QI is not academically sound. Stephen Fry is a very clever chap, but we should try to find the source he was using. The name St Thomas à Becket is well established and is the name used in the Oxford Dictionary of English, the New Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors and Chambers Biographical Dictionary. There are also dozens of schools and churches all over the world that use the "à". Le poulet noir 10:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
No! But I can provide a reference that Thomas Becket is not incorrect: the Everyman’s Encyclopedia, 4th edn., London 1961, uses this form. Chambers Biographical Dictionary, 6th edn., 1997, ISBN 0-550-160-60 has him as Becket, Thomas (à), and references a 1970 book called Thomas Becket.
Why don’t we cut the polemic on correctness—which, even if it were supported, would be pretty tangential to an encyclopedia article—and just begin
Thomas Becket (also Thomas à Becket) (December 21, 1118 – December 29, 1170), English saint and martyr, was Archbishop…
or
Thomas à Becket (also Thomas Becket) (December 21, 1118 – December 29, 1170), English saint and martyr, was Archbishop…
—Ian Spackman 12:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
His recent biographer Frank Barlow (Thomas Becket : Berkeley 1986) says that he never used the Becket surname at all, "But much less tolerable is the 'à Becket' surname, which seems to have been a post-Reformation invention, and from which Thomas should be spared." I lean to not using it. Bpmullins 03:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)



--If this kind of discussion isn't on Wikipedia, where will the average pedant go? Please keep the debate within the article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.177.165 (talk) 04:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion removed from article page for consideration:

However, as Strype was not a contemporary either, his opinion may not be of value. English surnames always contained a preposition in the 12th century as surnames had not formed properly. The à in his name may be an allusion to a vernacular Thomas 'of' Becket being shortened to o' and this being recorded by scribes as 'à'. He was allegedly given the "à" in his name many years after he died by uncertain sources, perhaps with the subliminal intention of alluding to Thomas à Kempis.

--Old Moonraker (talk) 07:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Strype claims to have done his homework: "The name of that Archbishop was Thomas Becket, nor can it otherwise be found to have be written in any in any authentic history, record, kalendar [sic] or other book." (Memorials of Archbishop Cranmer).

--Old Moonraker (talk) 08:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gay or merry?

A previous version of the article said "gay, pleasure-loving courtier". The meaning "gay" = "homosexual" is a quite new, and old text obviously used it as "merry", a meaning that is rapidly falling out of use due of the conflict with the new one.

I've did some quick web research, and it seems clear to me that indeed Thomas Becket was a homosexual, but outside from Google-fuck, my knowledge is nil. Can an expert comment?

For now, I changed the article to use "merry", as homosexuality among clergy is a strongly controversial subject.

Especially when it comes to kissing the Bishop's ring :) Dainamo 10:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lara de Rouchenfeld

The article notes casually and seemingly out of the thread that Beckett married a young maiden by the name Lara de rouchenfeld and furthermore that child was killed for declaring herself a homosexual. I cannot find any reference to Lara de Rouchenfeld online. Is this fact or political?


[edit] Edward Grim & Assasination

The details of the assasination are very sketchy, and I am amazed that there is no mention at all of Edward Grim, because he was one of 5 witness to the murder, and so is a central figure to historians enterpreting (sp?) his murder. And would some one PLEASE write an article on him! --Flintwill 11:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Continuity between Exile and Assassination.

The article jumps from Becket in Sens locked in conflict with Henry II in the 'Becket leaves England' section to his murder in Canterbury Cathedral in 'Assassination' but doesn't explain the conditions that allowed him to return to England.

Good point! There needs to a section added. I'll take a look at Barlow and see what I can do. Bpmullins 19:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aftermath

So what became of the fundamental struggle between church and state? Did Thomas accomplish in death what he sacrificed himself for? Was Henry's contrition sincere? Inquiring minds -- oops, that's copyrighted. Moioci 23:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ==

QUOTE: This was done on orders from King Henry VIII as vengeance for his ancestor, Henry II. UNQUOTE

???

Thought the Tudors were in no way related to the Plantagenets...and therefore no ancestry connection...

" as vengeance for his ancestor, Henry II" ... should be removed

Can not conceive that Henry VIII would seek vengeance for Henry II! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MotherHoose (talk • contribs) 11:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed, as suggested. Thanks for pointing this out. Don't forget WP:BOLD! --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plagarism?

Maybe I'm just being sceptical, but the second section, about 1162, seems a bit...suspicious. Maybe I'm just trained to spot any parts in my or other peoples' work that may seem (or is) plagarised, but it would be worth giving your sources for the piece.

[edit] Return to England?

Good article - but on reading through it, it doesn't say when Becket returned to England. We have "Becket leaves England" and then in the next section he is assassinated in Canterbury. Could add details of his return to Canterbury? Gebjon 00:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] works

Did Thomas (á) Becket have any significant writings? Any books, or treatises? Cheers, --222.155.213.36 02:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schism

What on earth does schism mean? Couldn't you use easier language?

Schism is terminology rather than jargon. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_%28religion%29 Le poulet noir 16:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Context

"In late 2005, Thomas Becket was selected as one of the ten "Worst Britons," in a poll by the BBC History Magazine." Could someone add as to why he was chosen for this dubious honour given that he is regarded as a saint? The context as to why he was selected needs to be mentioned for someone who is not well versed with this subject. Idleguy 12:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Founding gesture politics and being a hypocrite! BBC News: Saint or sinner? Timrollpickering 23:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the 1100s, I would've thought the war between Stephen and Maud was just as avoidable and far worse for Britain than the crisis between Henry II and Becket. But of course IANAH. 18.252.5.164 00:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spacing

Could some kind person with greater technical know how than me please ensure that the text is not covered halfway down by the picture of Saint Thomas`s burial? Thankyou! Andycjp Dec 29th 2006

[edit] Where's Becket?

An entire entry dedicated to Becket, yet he is not mentioned once in the article! what's up with that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.148.10.46 (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Failed GA nomination

This article does not contain sufficient references to meet the GA criteria. There are lots of unsupported statements. Random example: "Later that would be one of the reasons his son would turn against him." StAnselm 00:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

Copied from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 September 16 for processing. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Thomas Becket has figured in polls for the best and the worst Britons. Which is it? Judithspencer 20:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

These polls are a measure of the opinions of the people who can be bothered to vote. They also depend on enough people having heard of the person and having an opinion. Presumably the people who voted him into the "best" category were not the same ones who voted him into the "worst" category. So, how do we measure whether somebody is "good" or "bad", and then, whether they are "good Briton" or a "bad Briton". If the criterion is that it depends on people's opinions, then clearly he fits in both categories. If you think that there is any possible objective measure, then maybe you could suggest what it may be? SaundersW 20:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The article has a paragraph near the end which explains why one historian selected him as a "worst". FiggyBee 22:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
In reply to the question Hero or villain? I'll say it's possible to be both. Although Becket was born in England, he probably saw himself as a Norman rather than a Briton. Apart from that, there's clearly an arguable case for Becket's nomination as 'worst Briton of the 12th century', though it seems to me he'd have a strong field to beat. I suppose most nominations in the 'best Briton' category would be based on his development in the public consciousness since his death, especially in the unlikely role of saint. :Xn4 00:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Depends on your point of view. As chancellor, he wasn't terribly good (if I remember correctly), as a Christian, he was good, and as a Briton, I don't know. (Read a biography and decide for yourself). · AndonicO Talk 01:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It really depends where you are coming from, I suppose. As Xn4 suggests, he might very well be both: a hero for the church and a villain for the state. Henry VIII took the latter view, as one might expect, ordering the destruction of Becket's shrine at Canterbury in 1538. But there were also fellow churchmen who were equally critical of Becket's conduct, including his brother arch-bishop of York. Gilbert Foliot, the Bishop of London, another of Becket's enemies, was even to write after his death, when the cult of the martyr was gathering momentum, "It is difficult for things begun with bad beginnings to be carried through to a good conclusion."
Anyway, I know of the two polls you mention, Judith; the first in the Daily Mail, where he was reckoned to be among history's one hundred greatest Britons, and the second in the BBC History Magazine, where he was runner-up to Jack the Ripper among the ten worst! I find it difficult to determie just exactly who responds to this kind of thing, and if the selections made reflect any real knowledge of the subject. Becket is one of those iconic figures that, I suspect, people feel ought to appear on a list of greats, which I imagine was the basis for his inclusion among the Daily Mail worthies.
In fact Becket, his terrible end notwithstanding, was far from the saintly figure that many people may imagine. His dispute with Henry II was not over any great matter of theology or Christian principle, but about law, about politics and, above all about privilege. Henry wanted priests and clerics to be subject to the general law of England; Becket insisted that they should continue to appear only before church courts, in every way far more lenient than their secular equivalent. Even clerics accused of the very worst crimes, including rape and murder, were merely defrocked. It was an anomaly that Henry wanted to end with the Constitutions of Clarendon. Becket agreed to the changes, but then refused to sign, subsquently taking a path beyond compromise; a political path, and a treasonable path, that even frustrated Pope Alexander III. His cause was certainly damaging for the state; but it was also, according to Folet and others, damaging for the church. Arrogant, proud, high-handed, and vindictive, he seems to have none of the qualities of simplicity and benevolence that make for true saintliness, the hair-shirt and the lice notwithstanding. Best or worst? Well, on that particular question you will just have to make up your own mind! Clio the Muse 01:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Danegeld

The wiki definition of Danegeld does not agree with its usage in this article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.188.89 (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

"Danegeld" has a specific meaning, and this wasn't it. Removed. Thanks for pointing this out, and don't be afraid to be WP:BOLD in the future! --Old Moonraker (talk) 18:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Born 21 December 1118?

A lot of sources say this - here's a Google search. Is there any reason to doubt them? If so, we should say something about these reservations in the article. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Crowning of Young King Henry

As I recall one of the main points of contention for Becket was that during his exile, Henry II had his son the Young King Henry crowned (in order to ease future succession disputes). This was controversial because the crowning of the King was the right of the Archbishop of Canterbury, a point agreed by the Pope, yet in Becket's absence the coronation was carried out by Roger of York and Gilbert of London. Naturally this infuriated Becket who saw it as an attack on the rights of the Archbishop of Canterbury, leading to the agreement of the Pope that those involved should be excommunicated.

It would be nice to see something on this added.(Valmecias (talk) 00:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC))