Talk:This Land Is Your Land

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
An {{Infobox Single}}, {{Infobox Song}} or {{Infobox Standard}} has been requested for this article. Please select the appropriate infobox and format it according to the guidelines.
Music Portal
This Land Is Your Land is within the scope of WikiProject Roots music, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide on Wikipedia to roots music, folk music and traditional music. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familier with the guidelines.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Meaning

The discussion about what Woody might or might not have meant by the song is an interesting one. However Woody's own words might provide a clue as to what he was thinking when he wrote, perhaps not this song in particluar, but his great, immortal, lyrical folk tunes. I have taken them from 'A Tribute to Woody Guthrie' 'which is an edited transcript of the Woody Guthrie memorial concerts performed at the Carnegie Hall in 1968 and Hollywood Bowl in 1970 and published by Ludlow Music Inc, New York. 'I hate a song that makes you think that you're not any good. I hate a song that makes you think you're just born to lose. Bound to lose. No good to nobody. No good for nothing. Because you are either too old or too young or too fat or too thin or too ugly or too this or too that. Songs that run you down or songs that poke fun at you on account of your bad luck or your hard travelling. I am out to fight these kind of songs to my very last breath of air and my last drop of blood. I am out to sing songs that will prove to you that this is your world and that if it has hit you pretty hard and knocked you for a dozen loops, no matter how hard it's run you down, and rolled over you, no matter what colour, what size you are, how you're built; I am out to sing songs that will make you take pride in yourself...' Substitue the word 'world' for 'land' and re-reference some of the specific place names and you have a global anthem. Roll on Woody, this world needs you like never before!

[edit] Different Lyrics

The Woody Guthrie page lists original lyrics quite different from original lyrics mentioned on this page.

  • The version on the Woody Guthrie page are the same lyrics found in the external link to the 1940 manuscript, but the 1945 version quoted in this article is apparently the first published version. Maybe we should merge the info? Silly Dan 00:04, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)

[edit] Links and New York Island

There are a couple of concerns about my recent edits here: First, I added links to Redwood for "Redwood forest", Long Island for "New York Island", and Rocky Mountains for "Canadian mountain" in the Guthrie lyrics, but I'm not sure if those are the most appropriate articles to link.

  • I'm sure "the New York Island" has to mean Manhattan, and I changed it accordingly.--Pharos 22:19, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • It seems to refer to Staten Island in the 1940 manuscript mentioned above. I'd keep it as Manhattan, though.Silly Dan 00:04, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)
      • If it refers to Staten Island, why keep it as Manhattan? We were always taught in school that it referred to Long Island, so this really does need to be investigated and sourced. – Beginning 19:23, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • I would say that he means Manhattan. He says "The New York Island", not "Long Island" or "Staten Island". Manhattan is the County of New York. In the times before Brooklyn and the other boroughs became part of New York City, NYC was considered more of an Island. Also, while I'm sure that he means Manhattan, as I put in, folk songs tend to change over time and place and while he probably meant Manhattan most of the time, he might have sung it to mean Staten Island at times. Fanra 17:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian Lyrics

Secondly, I don't know the origin of the Canadian lyrics -- hopefully my excerpt isn't a copyright violation. Silly Dan 00:54, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)

  • Added the attribution. Silly Dan 23:53, 2005 Jan 15 (UTC)

[edit] Original Lyrics

According to the best available information, the song, as written by Woody did include the "no tresspassing" and "relief office lyrics". Both Arlo Guthrie and the Woody Guthrie Foundation list this version on their official websites. I removed some of the previous author's comments about alleged original publishing (listed as both as 1940 and 1945) as I can find no references to support this. I have been told that these last two verses were (and still are) often struck from publishings of the the song on objection by an editor offended by Woody's political sentiments. However, I have yet to find any solid documentation of these rumors so I will not add them to the article unless I can find a reference or two.--DrFunkenstien 04:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The "no trespassing" verse is included on volume 1 of the Asch Recordings, so I don't see how there can be any controversy as to its authenticity.
"Was a big high wall there that tried to stop me,
sign was painted, said 'Private Property',
but on the backside it didn't say nothing
This land was made for you and me." ~track 14
¯\(°_o)/¯—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.119.41 (talk • contribs)
The original handwritten manuscript is reprinted in Elizabeth Partridge, This Land Was Made for You and Me: The Life & Songs of Woody Guthrie (New York: Viking, 2002), 85. It contains the two less know verses. I was going to upload a scanned copy to the Commons, but I'm not sure about its copyright status.--Dbolton (talk) 00:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Google Search

  • Its rather odd that this page comes up first in a search for "wikipeadia". Perhaps it needs be slightly more polished, if this is a common result?

[edit] jib jab?

couldn't the jib jab lyrics go on thier own page? woody guthrie is probably spinning in his grave.

I doubt he is spinning - chuckling if anything. It's folk music and changing the words as needed is part of the process. But still I agree - they need their own page, though at the moment they are of equal importance 20 years from now they will be less significant while woody will endure.

I agree with the original poster in that if the full lyrics of the parody are to be in the Wikipedia they belong on the JibJab page. But more concerningly they are copyrighted and seem to be in excess of fair use here, as they are quoted in full without any real commentary on the lyrics, whereas in the context of the analysis here the Woody Guthrie lyrics are probably fair use. So I have taken out the parody lyrics. If you think they should be put back in, please put in on a JibJab related page—and at a minimum ensure that it is fair use by only using a small excerpt or by providing more analysis—although I think there would be little marginal informative value to such analysis. NTK 08:37, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A note in followup, actually the Woody Guthrie lyrics do not need to be fair use at all, since they have been established to be in the public domain, whereas the parody is clearly copyrighted and following Wikipedia convention probably should not be quoted in full. In any event if you disagree with actions please discuss that here. I do think that the brief mention of the JibJab parody here is appropriate, but not the whole transcript. NTK 08:39, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Speaking of lyrics, should the Canadian version be going on the page? Its an American patriotic song, not Canadian. 68.239.239.47 04:31, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well, I think they should be there (I wouldn't have added them otherwise). And with those lyrics, it is a Canadian patriotic song (just as God Save The Queen becomes My Country, 'Tis of Thee or the national anthem of Liechtenstein).Silly Dan 22:37, 2005 Jan 15 (UTC)
Re: Jib jab? Exactly what I was thinking. The parodies, The Simpsons lyrics, all should go to their own page - this is a great song and deserves better. Todd 12:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I have the Irish version of the song on tape - it's fun to listen to :) PMA 10:26, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Can anyone tell me how this is a "patriotic" song? besides the fact that it's been misused and abused by American patriots?

It is not a particularly patriotic song. I was taught that the song was written about the Great Depression and all of that stuff. If it was really written in 1940, could someone please provide a reference? I was under the impression that it was written well before then.
There's a link to what is called the original 1940 manuscript. Can you recall any source that gave you your impression? - DavidWBrooks 14:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The "patriotic song" banner should definitely be removed. The song was written as a response to "God Bless America" and has nothing to do with "patriotism." As a lifelong socialist, Woody Guthrie would not have considered himself a "patriot" but a man looking out for the people, regardless of which nation they inhabited. Akulaalfa 06:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Socialists are patriots too. -- Samuel Wantman 06:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of what Guthrie intended, the song has become a de-facto "unofficial national anthem" for a portion of the American population, just as "God Bless America" has done for another portion. Singing it says something along the lines of "I love America, but that doesn't mean I love all the stuff the establishment says I have to love." - DavidWBrooks 13:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The song may have been abused by certain parties and twisted into a song about "patriotism," but that does not change the fact that it has nothing to do with nationalism. Socialists are not patriots--socialists view patriotism and nationalism as archaic ways of dividing people. "Anthem," definitely--"national," definitely not. Akulaalfa 18:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Again, regardless of how Guthrie or other people regard the song, it *is* regarded as an unofficial national anthem by a huge number of people. This article should reflect that. - DavidWBrooks 23:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there any reason to mention this JibJab parody twice in the article? "Modern usage" should be sufficient, the "there is also" part in the parody section is not needed. Maybe move it to parody, but the upper part is clearly better written. Ulkomaalainen 15:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright status

Hello, Is "This land is your land" copyrighted & if so who owns the copyright? Also do you know if it is licenced under a GDFL compatible licence? The reason I ask is because we have it on wikisource & it has been proposed for deletion as a [Land is Your Land copyright violation.] AllanHainey 12:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The aftermath of the JibJab copyright fiasco was the discovery that the tune was never under copyright as that had been taken from the Carter Family[[1]] and the lyrics copyright from 1945 had never been renwed [[2]]. In addition Guthrie at on time appended a copyright notice to the song that read: "This song is Copyrighted in U.S., under Seal of Copyright # 154085, for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singin’ it without our permission, will be mighty good friends of ourn, cause we don’t give a dern. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. Yodel it. We wrote it, that’s all we wanted to do." ~~Brother William 2nd May 2006 23:03(UTC)
Yeah, i think it's quite ridiculous that jibjab would be sued, copyright or not, since parody is protected. -User:Nathew
No, it's just ironic that they would be sued by the company that allegedly owned a song against the "evil" of private property.

[edit] This land is made by you and me

Along FDR's "Nation of immigrants", I believe that this song is not restrictive. On PBS "American Experience" and "Sesame Street", Pete Seeger singing along with children and Peter, Paul and Mary with chorists, it's a welcome song of being together.

Takima 12:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trying to finde histery aboht tis land is yor land

What is the real story of Tis Land is your land?

Here's my understanding, "This Land is Your Land" is left-wing protest song written as a counter to self-infatuated, pro-establishment songs like "God Bless America". It's aim was to express a new kind of patriotism, a patriotism with almost socialist values, that emphasised the common identity of the Amerian people aswell as protesting against the selfish and unpatriotic nature of private property and the disgraceful conditions many Americans were forced to live under. Considering all this, it's really quite sickening to hear Republicans misusing a song written by a socialist to express his socialist convictions.Nwe 09:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional Song?

According to the 2005 boxed set, "This Machine Kills Fascists", this is a traditional song and was arranged by Woody Guthrie (i.e. not actually written by him). Does anyone know if this is accurate, and should the page be updated to reflect this? Adam McMaster 09:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

First I've ever heard of it. He owned the copyright. - DavidWBrooks 10:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, I have a record containing a cover of "This Land Is Your Land" from 1963, "Trini Lopez At PJ's." It lists the song's authors as "Boone-Gold" and the publishing is "Chappell & Co., Inc. ASCAP. Anybody know who these mysterious Boone & Gold people are, who claim to have written the song? What's the story there? - Nick McGaw, 17 June 2007

[edit] "In modern times..."

In this article, someone wrote: "In modern times, the first verse is often sung as:" and then proceeds to list the lyrics to the Canadian version of the song, not a modernized American version, which they seem to think it is. I'm an American, but when I was in elementary school in the mid 1980s, I remember our music teacher telling us that there was a Canadian version of the song, and those are the lyrics. The places mentioned in the verse obviously refer to Canada, not the United States. 66.251.84.28 17:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The Canadian version is listed later in the article anyway: I'm removing that "in modern times" bit. —Silly Dan (talk) 23:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Patriotic Music?

Woody Guthrie did not intend this to be a patriotic song. It is a protest song. This should be taken out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.195.9.71 (talk) 19:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

What should be taken out? The article is quite clear about Guthrie's intentions. - DavidWBrooks 20:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It depends on what you mean by patriotic. According to Patriotism, it can mean, "Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation". Woody Guthrie was patriotic in his way, which differs from the mainstream way but is quite valid. Also, despite what he might have wished, the song has become a patriotic song, witness it being used by G.H.W. Bush. I would guess that Guthrie would have protested strongly against him using it. Fanra 17:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Popular Parody

A popular parody among schoolchildren is

 This land is my land
 It isn't your land
 If you don't get off
 I'll shoot your head off
 I got a shotgun
 And you ain't got one
 This land was made for only me

I heard Pete Seeger sing this verse at a children's concert at my elementarty school in Brooklyn NY in the mid 1960s.

[edit] Whose land?

When I hear the song I always think of the Native Americans the land was stolen from. Does no else find it an embarrassing song? I can imagine Nazi children singing it to each other in Poland after it was cleared of Slavs. There is something latently unpleasant about the song that is brought out in the other versions. Littlest Plum 23:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, some people can find unpleasant undertones in almost anything. - DavidWBrooks 13:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a very interesting point, and I don't wish to dismiss it so cynically as DavidWBrooks did.
Gurthrie, in his Library of Congress recordings (which I happen to be currently listening to) spoke at some length about how he made it a point (as/since a young man? something like that) to befriend "Indians and colored boys" (while playing hookie from school).
Anyway, his point was that the idea that a land belongs to anyone but those who live there is a lie. That point could perhaps be seen as retroactively sympathetic to the indigenous people who lost their land, but I don't think that was really the idea. Guthry was a socialist: this song is about the future, not the past: it's about the end of ownership itself. (P.S. eye <3 Woody!) --MQDuck 06:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)