Talk:Thirteen (House)

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A fact from Thirteen (House) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 15 February 2008.

"While Thirteen's name was originally intended to be revealed, the production team decided against doing so and her name was eventually replaced by the psuedonym on all documents, including the callsheets, to further the in-joke in the show's narrative between House and Thirteen that he could simply check her file."

When I read that I found it awkward and didn't really understand it. I would attempt to fix it myself but again, I can't really fix it if I don't know what the intent is. BlueArcher (talk) 19:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Contents 1 Real Name? 2 Reference num. 4 is dead 3 Merge discussion 4 Reference to Thirteen's alleged bisexuality in "Living the Dream" 5 Thirteen vs. "Thirteen" 6 Dr. Hadley 7 Bisexuality and name 8 Jennifer Morrison? 9 Huntington's ? 10 The ballot 11 Article Sections? 12 What House wanted

[edit] Real Name?

Stills from Mirror Mirror, where Chase is handing out betting slips, seem to show her name to be Remy Hadley. Is this worth mentioning, or best to leave it until it's officially revealed in an episode? (http://www.watchinghouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/remy.jpg) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.133.7.37 (talk) 08:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Check out Talk:House (TV series)#Remy Hadley?. The consensus right now is to wait until it's officially revealed. --Hnsampat (talk) 14:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Im adding it seeing as Cuddy just called her DR Hadley when House locked her out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.31.100 (talk) 01:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, after the airing of tonight's episode, the plot thickens. Cuddy very clearly called Thirteen by the name of "Dr. Hadley," not once but several times. This does lend credence to "Remy Hadley" indeed being Thirteen's real name. However, I should note that the first name ("Remy") was not spoken tonight and that House implied that "Dr. Hadley" was not her real name (although his logic could be that "Thirteen" is her real name). Nonetheless, since the last name has indeed been spoken on the show now, I think we can justify including the reference to what was seen on the ballot and mentioning her last name. I wouldn't jump to start renaming everything "Remy Hadley" yet, though. (Eventually, maybe, but not yet.) That's my take. Thoughts? --Hnsampat (talk) 02:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Until and unless they reveal that her first name is indeed Remy, I'd leave it out, and just mention her last name as we've done here. ObsidianBlack (talk) 03:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Remy is a male name. -- AvatarMN (talk) 14:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess that furthers yet more the bisexuality joke. RUL3R (talk) 21:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

That might have been part of the thinking, but Remy isn't exclusively male. I know a girl named Remy. 72.202.143.136 (talk) 20:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reference num. 4 is dead

The link is dead. --Taraborn (talk) 21:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge discussion

Please weigh in here: Talk:House_(TV_series)#Merge_proposals_of_all_House_characters_by_User:Eusebeus

[edit] Reference to Thirteen's alleged bisexuality in "Living the Dream"

In "Living the Dream," while watching a soap opera with House, Thirteen points to one of the actresses and says, "I think I may have dated her..." and then trails off. For me, it's pretty clear that she's sarcastically playing along with the running gag (started by House and Foreman) that she's allegedly bisexual. But, admittedly, that's my opinion. The question now is whether we should mention this incident in the article. Several IP users have been eager to add this in and I have reverted them, but I think I should move the disussion here. I say that we not include the incident, with the reasoning being that there is no real evidence that it is significant. Sure, the temptation is great to add information episode-by-episode as more is supposedly revealed about Thirteen's character. But, the truth is we don't really know if she's bisexual or not and so do we really need to document every hint the show drops about that? Won't that become a coatrack for references that, while titillating for House fans (myself included), are really not all that notable in and of themselves? Furthermore, aren't we really just speculating about how significant these dropped hints are? (For example, if we say, "In 'Living the Dream', Thirteen hints that she may have dated a female actress, although it is unclear if this is a joke or not," we're loading the sentence with weasel words and are openly admitting that we don't know if this reference even means anything important.) Thoughts? --Hnsampat (talk) 14:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Listen again to Thirteen's tone of voice and matter-of-fact delivery of the line. It did not sound like a sarcastic comment to me.

It seems that the producers do intend Thirteen to be bisexual (why else introduce that plot point otherwise? And her request to Foreman that it not become 'lunch time gossip' when first mentioned pretty much clinches it), but there isn't yet enough evidence, by Wikipedia standards, to say that she is indeed bisexual.

Nevertheless, I'd add in the line, with disclaimers that the line may or not be intended seriously. Something along the lines of "Whether this comment was meant in jest or not has yet to be revealed." That is just my opinion, though. ObsidianBlack (talk) 18:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The writers of House love to play around with the audience and suggest all kinds of things. For instance, there's the suggestion that Cameron has slept with House. Also, plenty has been said about the supposed gay subtext between House and Wilson. So, the fact that they suggested it doesn't really say anything about whether it's true or not or whether it's significant or not. I think the writers just love to tease us with "details" about Thirteen's life. (Remember how they spent all that time on the Huntington's stuff and then never went anywhere with it?)

Also, if "Thirteen" is indeed a closeted bisexual, then why would she wonder out loud if somebody might be her ex-girlfriend? Is she that bad at staying in the closet? Or, is it that she's playing along with House and Foreman's little game? Remember, Thirteen has shown that she's capable of reading into House's games and then using them against him.

In any case, we both agree that there isn't enough evidence either way. She might be bisexual or she might not. (We're bound to find out for sure sooner or later, just as we're bound to find out what her real name is.) I've put all of the bisexuality-related stuff into a single paragraph and I think it's pretty neutral. Does it look alright to you? --Hnsampat (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That looks fine to me, but other people may not like it. We'll see.

As to wondering out loud, well there is nothing to say she is closeted exactly. She just may not see the need to announce her sexuality to everyone she meets. A lot of people who are gay or bisexual are the same way.

However, it is possible as you said that the writers are just teasing. We will find out eventually, I'm sure.

Even if she isn't actually bisexual though, I think it's important to include that comment because it gives an insight into a character who is otherwise an enigma. If she indeed just said that to mess with House, that also fits with her characterization, as she seems to be the underling who is the least afraid of or intimidated by House, and it gives us a glimpse into that aspect of her character. ObsidianBlack (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the "closeted" bit is based on Foreman's statement in "Don't Ever Change" and Thirteen's reaction to it, which have been taken to mean that IF she is a bisexual THEN she is a closeted one. Of course, if she's not a bisexual, none of this means a thing. But, I agree with you that it does give insight into her character either way and so I've included the information. We'll see how it goes! --Hnsampat (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Leave it as part of the characters mystique - saying she's "hinted about her sexuality" but don't give the "but this may or not be true" bull that really deep-down means the writer thinks its true. Sceptre ^(talk) 20:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thirteen vs. "Thirteen"

Merely a formatting issue, but should wer refer to our doctor here as Thirteen (without quotation marks) or "Thirteen"? --Hnsampat (talk) 06:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be "Thirteen." It's not like Thirteen is her real name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.202.143.136 (talk) 20:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Hadley

So her name is Dr. Hadley, will the article's name be changed or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.165.47 (talk) 19:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I say we keep the name of the article as "Thirteen" for now, for several reasons:

1. House's comment immediately after Cuddy calls Thirteen "Dr. Hadley" (i.e., "[Cuddy] doesn't know your name) casts some doubt (however small) on whether this is actually her real name.
2. Her full name has not been spoken on the show. We can't just call the article "Dr. Hadley" and there's no consensus on whether the ballot that shows the name "Remy Hadley" is a reliable source, so we can't justify calling the article "Remy Hadley" either.
3. Per WP:NAMING, we should use the most common name as the article title, and the most common name is still "Thirteen." We can't justify renaming the article until she is regularly referred to as "Dr. Hadley" or whatever.

So, those are my thoughts. --Hnsampat (talk) 20:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Add the name in the article at least, and add the possible doubts by her name. I think it is pretty obvious that it is her name but those who doubt it, add the doubts to satisfy them. 92.104.255.38 (talk) 17:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It's already there, under "Characterization." :) --Hnsampat (talk) 21:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bisexuality and name

The two talking points of the character - over the past few weeks since the show came back, the article's become overrun with speculation to both. I've cut both down to a line each - I've noted she's been referred to as Dr. Hadley by Cuddy, but the betting slip should not be used in the article - screenshots are unreliable sources. Bisexuality, I've removed the amount of times she has been referred to as such, because over half of the insinuations are House's normal snarky attitude. Sceptre ^(talk) 22:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's better now thanks to your edits. We do tend to give undue weight to plot details as they develop and I think your version as it stands right now will better stand the test of time. Job well done. --Hnsampat (talk) 03:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

How is an aired screenshot an unreliable source? The fact that the name from the screenshot matches the dialog from last weeks episode is a point that should be in the article. If I had a copy of said screenshot to add, I would make the change myself.

Given that their are now two references from the show itself, the article should start:

"Thirteen" is the pseudonym used by Dr. Hadley, a fictional character on…"

with explanation later in the article. —MJBurrage^(T•C) 01:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This specific screenshot is clearly an unreliable source because of the way it was presented: The ballot was mainly out-of-focus with the name "Remy Hadley" only readable for one or two frames - it was clearly not intended to be readable to the average viewer. Screenshots in general are unreliable when they show props that are not referenced in the dialogue: While it's likely that the props department checked with the writers, it is by no means certain.

As long as the name "Remy Hadley" is not mentioned in the dialogue or featured prominently on screen, I wouldn't consider it canonical. The last name Hadley seems(!) to be confirmed by now, but I still see nothing that would disallow the writers from changing her first name.--Qualle (talk) 07:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Did I miss a mention of it last night? Because the only mention of "Hadley" is a bit... iffy. Sceptre ^(talk) 12:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No, you didn't miss anything. In last night's episode, Thirteen was only referred to as "Thirteen" (not even by nicknames suggestive of bisexuality). --Hnsampat (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Cuddy repeatedly shouted at Thirteen using the name Dr. Hadley. Hadley is clearly her last name, and although it is probably intended for her first name to be Remy (just as Taub, Kutner, Cole, and Amber's full names on the ballot are official), it hasn't been confirmed. She's definitely Hadley, but I say we should continue to refer to her as "Thirteen" just because it's the name she's most commonly associated with.

Although the show seems to strongly suggest that she is bisexual, it hasn't been confirmed the way her Huntington's disease has and should be referred to in the article as speculation. 72.202.143.136 (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"She doesn't even know your name!" Sceptre ^(talk) 16:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Didn't Thirteen herself confirm it when she stated "I think I used to date that nurse in high school" when looking at the videos of the soap opera in the episode with the soap star. The nurse was female. -Zomic13 (talk) 05:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Thirteen was being serious when she said that. I think she was just playing along with House's and Foreman's little claim that she's bisexual. It's perfectly within her character to do that and it's perfectly within character for the House writers to drop in a line like that just to mess with the audience, without it actually meaning anything. --Hnsampat (talk) 12:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that could be true. Well, Thirteen is certainly going to be one interesting character to watch next season between this and her Huntington's disease. -Zomic13 (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jennifer Morrison?

Did she really compare their characters with a negative attitude towards thirteen here: http://www.buddytv.com/articles/house/jennifer-morrison-gives-her-di-15674.aspx ?

""I think they're blatant," she said. "To me, Thirteen is very much like Cameron..."" - doesn't seem derogatory —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.188.34 (talk) 22:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Huntington's ?

Why isn't a mention of her testing positive for Huntington's chorea, in the last episode of the season 4, being given any importance? She obviously was disturbed since the season's beginning because of this, and finally had the guts to face it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.42.20 (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It would be, but there was such an orgasm of editing "OMG SHE HAS HUNTINGTONS" and about her name and stuff like that after the final episode that the page got fully protected and so no one can edit it right now. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It's already mentioned under "Characterization." What more do we need? Remember, we don't want to give that tidbit of information undue weight. --Hnsampat (talk) 15:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The ballot

User:Deamon138 posted this link [1] on Talk:House (TV series) and I thought I should share the link here. It's an interview with Olivia Wilde from February 2008, which is long after the episode with the ballot ("Mirror, Mirror") aired. In this interview, Olivia Wilde says that Thirteen's show has not been revealed on the show and that Thirteen's real name has "disappeared" from all call sheets and from around the set (which, I imagine, would include props like the ballot). So, provided that Wilde is telling the truth here, this would seem to indicate that the ballot is not a reliable source for Thirteen's real name. --Hnsampat (talk) 16:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Hnsampat :) Deamon138 (talk) 02:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

That only means that the writers are reserving the right to give her a different given name than the one that was on the ballot. Her surname has since been confirmed by Cuddy's repeated use of it in the seasons penultimate episode. And yes I also remember House's related comment, but that clearly refers to Cuddy not calling her "Thirteen".

Does anybody really think that the hospital administrator that lobbied for her hiring does not know her real name, it is on pay related paperwork every pay-period etc. While they were keeping her name from us on screen, within the hospital, a doctors legal name would be often used for a variety of legal reasons. There has to be a paper trail for tests ordered, procedures performed, payroll etc. So to the characters themselves her legal name would be well known, even if they never speak it.

in other words we know:

1. Her character was going to be named Remy Hadley, aka "Thirteen"
2. The writers/producers reconsidered the characters legal name and removed it from the set and all production materials.
3. The show has since confirmed that the characters legal surname is Hadley, although her given name remains unconfirmed.

All three points are completely confirmed by the show itself and should be in the article. It is not Wikipedia's job to play along with the game, but to report what is known.

Note I am not saying that the article should say the characters name IS Remy Hadley, but we should note that Remy was used in production materials, before being removed. The intro should now use the Hadley surname in some fashion. —MJBurrage^(T•C) 15:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

But, we can't definitively conclude that the ballot indicates that Thirteen was going to be named "Remy Hadley." It's equally possible that the props department put that name on the ballot as a joke and then the writers later decided to actually give Thirteen the same last name. (In fact, it's even possible that they may later decide to give her the same first name as well.) Also, it's not "clear" that House's comment refers to Cuddy not calling her "Thirteen." (Note: I personally do think that that's what House was referring to and that it would be pretty silly if Cuddy got her employee's name wrong. But, a case can still be made that the last name "Hadley" is still in doubt.) So, really what we know is this:

1. The name "Remy Hadley" appears on a ballot in "Mirror, Mirror."
2. The ballot may be indicative of the character's real name or may have been put on the ballot as a joke by the props department (who may or may not have been in touch with the writers about this).
3. The name "Remy Hadley" ballot in question is only visible for a few frames. It's very easy to miss and not easy to read. The ballot is never read aloud nor are the names ever spoken in that episode. In other words, using the ballot as a source requires one to go frame-by-frame and try to read the image. It's not the most reliable source in the world.
4. The name "Dr. Hadley" is spoken on the show by Cuddy in "House's Head."
5. House immediately follows that by saying that Cuddy "doesn't know [Thirteen's] real name."
6. House seems to be referring to the fact that Cuddy did not refer to the character in question as "Thirteen," but the matter is open to interpretation.
7. It does not seem likely that Cuddy, the hospital administrator, would get Thirteen's real name wrong.
8. It is possible that Thirteen got the name "Dr. Hadley" because that's what the writers had decided all along or because the writers decided to carry through on what started as a joke (i.e., the ballot). (Note: The latter presumes that the ballot is a joke, which may not be the case.) It's also possible (based on the doubts expressed above) that "Dr. Hadley" is not Thirteen's real name (although I personally feel this is unlikely).
9. Although the last name "Hadley" has been spoken on the show, the first name "Remy" has not. We have no idea if it ever will be spoken or not. It's possible that it might, but it's equally possible that it might not.
10. Despite the name "Dr. Hadley" having been spoken on the show once by Cuddy, Thirteen has (thus far) only been referred to as "Thirteen" in subsequent episodes.
11. FOX's official website refers to Thirteen only as "Dr. 'Thirteen'."

These are the sum total of all of the facts and possible interpretations that we know about Thirteen's name. We can't say anything more than this without engaging in original research. The article, as it stands right now, says this:

In her first appearance, she and all other fellowship applicants were identified by numbers. So far, she has elected to be called by her designated number instead of her real name; she has only been referred otherwise once: Cuddy calls her "Dr. Hadley" in "House's Head", to which House replies that "[Cuddy] doesn't even know [Thirteen's] name."

I think the article is fine as it stands. Furthermore, given the questionable nature of the ballot's reliability (as outlined above), I say we leave the ballot information off (at least for now). I don't think we need to add any name information to the lead just yet. I say we wait until the name "Dr. Hadley" gets some more prominent usage, thus erasing any possible doubt. Essentially, I guess I'm saying let's wait until the name "Dr. Hadley" or the name "Remy Hadley" have been proven beyond all reasonable doubt before we start using "Thirteen" and "Hadley" interchangeably. (Note: I don't necessarily doubt that Dr. Hadley is Thirteen's real name. I am inclined to think, in fact, that Remy Hadley is her real name. However, I think that the doubts expressed above are reasonable.) Until then, the article is fine as it stands, since it succinctly lays out what is incontrovertibly known about Thirteen's name. --Hnsampat (talk) 16:16, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The concept section should include the name "Remy Hadley" as the name from the ballot with whatever caveats other editors deem necessary, but it was visible, and should be mentioned in this background section. Cuddy's use of the name at the end of the season was very clear, and the fact that her coworkers still use her preferred nickname dose not change or undo Cuddy's clear and recent use.

There are many articles on many characters where their given name or surname was only used in one scene and we would still use said name with a proper episode citation. Only if a later episode gives a different surname, should this even be in doubt.

Note I am not suggesting moving the article, or changing the use of "Thirteen" throughout most of the article, since that is the characters commonly used name. However, the intro should now include the Hadley surname with an episode citation to the Cuddy quote.

Compare the treatment of James Kirk's middle initial in his article and in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and Hawkeye Pierce's birth place (Maine vs. Vermont). The intro includes the most reliable details, with discussion of conflicting details later in the article.—MJBurrage^(T•C) 18:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I personally have no problem with including the information about the ballot (presented as-is, without interpretation) in that section. However, other users have expressed concern about that (see the various discussions above), which is why I've been saying to hold off on including the ballot information. If there is a consensus to add the ballot information, we can do that. I would suggest this as the new wording for that section:

In her first appearance, she and all other fellowship applicants were identified by numbers. So far, she has elected to be called by her designated number instead of her real name; she has only been referred otherwise once: Cuddy calls her "Dr. Hadley" in "House's Head", to which House replies that "[Cuddy] doesn't even know [Thirteen's] name." Additionally, in the episode "Mirror, Mirror," a betting slip is seen in several frames that includes the names of all of the fellowship applicants, plus the name "Remy Hadley," which many fans have taken to be indicative of "Remy Hadley" being Thirteen's real name, while other fans have been skeptical.

I think this is a nice, neutral way of saying that the ballot exists and that there's a controversy about it. Thoughts? --Hnsampat (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I like that wording, very clear and neutral. I still think that her surname (without a given name) should be in the intro as I noted in a section above. —MJBurrage^(T•C) 19:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, I have no problem with it, but I think other users might. I think the way the article is right now is a good compromise (and we can go ahead and add in the wording above regarding the whole "Remy Hadley" thing if we want). --Hnsampat (talk) 19:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the paragraph as is is fine, but I also wouldn't be against changing it to the paragraph given by Hnsampat above, as long as sources are cited for a frame of the betting slip, fans "for" that being her name, and fans "against" that being her name. I personally believe that her name probably is Remy Hadley, however I remain slightly dubious because of House's comment. I think an integral part of her character is she is hiding it (if that makes any sense), so I wouldn't put it past the writers and her character to be tricking the viewers and Cuddy. I think to say that because she is the Dean of Medicine and therefore should know what her staff's names are thus inferring that Hadley is her name, constitutes original research. Deamon138 (talk) 22:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thus I wouldn't add Dr Hadley to the intro. Deamon138 (talk) 22:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Sections?

Maybe we should add more sections to the article which talk about her name and references to her sexuality named "Name" and "Sexuality", appropriately. Then we can add all of the allusions there. Maybe even a section talking about her Huntingdon's. We can pretty much elaborate on the characterization by separating it into sections.. --Vreddy92 (talk) 14:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking about doing the same thing, but the problem is that there's basically nothing more to say beyond what is already there in the article. We could create separate sections, but they'd end up having one or two sentences in each. So, I think we're fine as it stands. --Hnsampat (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What House wanted

At present, the article contains the phrase, "This is exactly what happens, giving House a team of four, which is what he had wanted," in reference to Cuddy allowing House to hire Thirteen, However, it might be just me, but from how I 'read' that scene, it seemed like House wanted Thirteen herself, and was looking for an excuse to hire her, which Cuddy unwittingly provides. Have I understood wrong? Deamon138 (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It could be read either way, I think. I've reworded it accordingly. --Hnsampat (talk) 00:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I guess it could. Okay, what you've put now seems fair enough. I'll have a look for any comment on this episode elsewhere on the web and see what's what. Deamon138 (talk) 00:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I saw that episode not long ago, and Cuddy said that House could only hire TWO, not three. So he hired two men so Cuddy woudls ay that it was sexist so he coudl hire Thirteen. The info in the article is wrong.--201.132.202.153 (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No actually it's not. Cuddy says to House at the end, "I can't let you hire two men, you've already got Foreman." This means that by hiring Thirteen, along with Kutner and Taub, he has FOUR working for him. Foreman was already hired, so he was already part of HOuse's team. Deamon138 (talk) 20:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)