Talk:Third Rome
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Reading:
"Since Roman princesses had married Tsars of Moscow, and, since Russia had become, with the fall of Byzantium, the most powerful Orthodox Christian state, the Tsars were thought of as succeeding the Byzantine Emperor as the rightful ruler of the (Christian) world. The word "tsar," like kaiser, is derived from the word "caesar".
Grand Duke Ivan IV was proclaimed the first Russian Tsar on 16 January 1547."
I understand that, until the fall of Byzantium, Moscow rulers weren't named Tsars, so the former paragraph needs a couple of changes. How were they named before "tsar"? --euyyn 18:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- "Grand Prince of Moscow" 201.1.184.57 06:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Very very much in this entry can easily be disputed. Please add the dubious content label.
- Please sign your posts by adding four ~s at the end, so everybody knows when they are added. I don't know a single word about this subject, so I can only ask you to be more specific about which parts are disputed and why they are. It would be even better if you corrected the article to reflect both trends (you don't have to be registered to do it). --euyyn 21:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Origins of Tsar
The article says Ivan IV was the first "Tsar of Russia," but I remember learning that Ivan III was actually the first "Tsar," though he disliked the term and so chose not to use it himself. So while Ivan IV was the first to regularly refer to himself as the Tsar, I believe Ivan III was actually the first Tsar. Can anyone confirm this?--JaymzRR 03:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- I just checked and the article Tsar does credit Ivan the III as the first Tsar, though they mention an earlier name (or two) that used the title in the past. Unless anyone objects I'll change this article as soon as I get a chance.--JaymzRR 03:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Ultimately Moscow had never been a real heir to Rome, and there is nothing really to support this claim except some Grand Prince marrying a member of the last Byzantine Emperor's family.
If anything the HRE was around anyways and they carried the real claim, and had the Translatio imperii. Besides the Byzantine's did reconize the Holy Roman Empire i.e Wikipedia's Otto the Great "In 972, the Byzantine emperor John I Tzimisces recognized Otto's imperial title and agreed to a marriage between Otto's son and heir Otto II and his niece Theophano."
So basically Moscow's claims are just as ridiculous as the Ottoman Sultan's claim of being Roman Emperor. --Lucius Sempronius Turpio 07:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- I rather like the formulation, "...except some Grand Prince marrying a member of the last Byzantine Emperor's family". Well, apparently, you simply don't seem to recognize Byzantium as the Second Rome. Oh, and if anything, one can say the claims of the Germanics are about as preposterous as those of the Ottomans, since both basically came and kicked the Romans' teeth in. I'm not going to sink so low as to compare fellow Christians to the Turks, however. Humanophage 17:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
