Talk:Third Perso-Turkic War

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Contents

[edit] References

The article seems very well written, but where are the references?Hajji Piruz 14:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Territorial changes

The pre-War boundaries were reinstated after the war. The Khazars did not stay to occupy the land, they left, alhtough the Khazar king did get taxes from the area, even after he left.Hajji Piruz 20:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the territorial changes part isnt even necessary, as there were none. THe Result of the war was reinstatement of pre-war boundaries.Hajji Piruz 20:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I will not argue over this point. It is evident to anyone reading the article that at one point the Gokturks controlled all of Transcaucasia, and only the civil war in Central Asia induced them to back down. --Ghirla-трёп- 20:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
That's accurate. According to Minorsky: Византийцы не расширяли своих владений в Восточном Закавказье, большая часть которого оставалась во власти хазар до прихода арабов. [1] Byzantines did not expand their possessions in Transcaucasia, most of which remained under the Khazar rule before the arrival of Arabs. Grandmaster 05:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aghvania vs. Albania

Could you please explain why you reverted my edits to Third Perso-Turkic War and called them political agenda? The English spelling of the name of Caucasian Albania is Caucasian Albania, however you reverted the article back to spelling of Aghvania, which is not accepted in English language. We have an article on Caucasian Albania, which you may wish to check. Also, the ethnicity of Moses of Kalankatuyk is not known, some think that he was Albanian, others that he was Armenian. I don’t think that we should assume positions, we should report them. Please see this quote from prominent scholar K.V.Trever:

На армянском языке написан первый и единственный труд, посвященный истории Албании, - "История Албании" Моисея Каланкатуйского (Мосес Каланкатваци). Труд этот дошел до нас в нескольких списках и состоит из трех частей; он упоминается армянскими писателями XII--XIII вв. Автор, уроженец сел. Каланкатуйк в области Утик, был по происхождению либо утийцем (албаном), писавшим на армянском языке, либо армянином, что весьма возможно, так как в этот период Арцах и большая часть Утика были уже арменизованы.

К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959. Thanks. Grandmaster 11:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by being "accepted" in English (or Russian) languages. Both Albania and Aghvania are foreign place names, and both are perfectly legitimate. Aghvania is the term used in most scholarly treatments of the event and probably by Movses himself. I don't care about his nationality (although I believe his work is written in Armenian) but I'm sure the term "Aghvania" should stay, because that's how the country is called in the academia. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Please check the article about Albania in Encyclopedia Iranica: [2] From what I can see most scholarly sources call this ancient country Caucasian Albania. This name is accepted since the times of Rome, and has not changed since. Grandmaster 11:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
You might refer me to the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia as well. The place-name "Aghvania" is not my original research. I don't propose to rename Caucasian Albania to Aghvania. "Albania" is the Latin name for the country; "Aghvania" seems to be the native one. It's just like Caledonia and Scotland, Britannia and England. It's useless to expurgate one version in favor of another; we have a system of redirects to refer our readers to the appropriately named article. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
How about Minorsky: The territory of the present-day Soviet republic of Azarbayjan roughly corresponds to the ancient Caucasian Albania (in Armenian Alovan-k', or Alvan-k', in Arabic Arran > al-Ran).
Or Dowsett, both top experts in this field. The latter has an article called A Neglected Passage in the "History of the Caucasian Albanians". [3]
I don’t mean to be confrontational, I'm just trying to help improve the article. I don’t say that you did an original research, but I think that we should use a common English name of the country throughout the articles. We don't know what the Albanians called their country, but Armenians called it Aluank/Alvank/Agvank, and Persians and Arabs Arran. Aghvania appears to be a very rare spelling. Grandmaster 12:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't argue that the term "Albania" is illegitimate and I subscribe to every word Minorsky says. "Aluank/Alvank/Agvank" was used by Moses who is our primary source on the issue, so we should go with this name, rather than introducing the Latin spelling. No Latin source records the events of this particular war, so why should we replace the native name with its Latin rendering? I assure you there is no need to improve the article at this point. There are many other articles that could benefit from your zeal. --Ghirla-трёп- 13:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another combatant

There are at least three clear indications within:

"Hostilities were initiated in 627 AD by Khagan Tong Yabghu of the Western Göktürks and Emperor Heraclius of the Eastern Roman Empire";
"The next objective of the Turkic-Byzantine offensive...
"Before long these departed as well, leaving the Byzantines to continue the siege alone and prompting jeers from the besieged";

Ghirla, note also that the infobox lists Heraclius as another commander :) --Brand спойт 14:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is no doubt that both the Byzantines and the Khazars fought on the same front in the Caucasus. The Byzantines should be included.Hajji Piruz 14:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Infoboxes are evil. They engender controversy where there is none. The Byzantine and Gokturk offensives overlapped, but that does not mean the wars were identical. --Ghirla-трёп- 15:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not mixing up the wars. The question is who participated in that war :) --Brand спойт 17:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Andrew?

Presumably Andreas... AnonMoos 22:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

I did the GA review for the article. Findings:

1. Well written?: Fluent, well organized, no grammatical short-comings.
2. Factually accurate?: No errors as far as I can say.
3. Broad in coverage?: Covers pretty much everything in a balanced way, well referenced throughout.
4. Neutral point of view?: Yes.
5. Article stability? Article is pretty new, but last 2 weeks have been fairly stable. No apparent disputes in the air apart some minor wordings.
6. Images?: Images feel a bit fragmented and improvements on this sector could be the focus in the future.

Passing GA. Added the article to Wikipedia:Good_articles under "Conflicts, battles and military exercises". ----Drieakko 12:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps Review: Pass

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I fixed a minor mistake that had messed up the references. Although the article passes, a source should be added for the quote ""With their swords raised, they advanced on the walls, and all this multitude, climbing upon each other's shoulders, rose up the walls. A black shadow fell upon the wobegone citizens; they were vanquished and lost their ground", Movses narrates." If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 07:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)