Talk:ThinkPad

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[edit] Sources on introductory paragraph

"IBM ThinkPads have a reputation for generally being solidly built, dependable, and innovative."
There's no source listed for that line. Also, it reads like an advertiesment.

[edit] Possible error

The description of the A series says that there are 3 bays, 2 of which are swappable. The A21e, at least, has a non-removable 3.5" disk drive, an internal hard disk, and a single Ultrabay 2000. I can't speak for the other A series models.

Not error, A21e is economy model, like contemporary R50e, these are reduced in features compared to regular A2x/A3x models and their *p* (performance) variants.

No, here is the real breakdown. The A series includes two different lines of machines: The A20/A21/A22 series have one chassis and the A30/A31 series a different one.
All A30/31 machines have two removable drive bays. Nearly all A20/21/22 machines have a permanently mounted 3.5" diskette drive and a single removable drive bay. A few A21e and A22e models omit the 3.5" diskette and have only a single removable drive bay. Other than that one exception, the e/m/p letter suffix has no bearing on the drive configuration for the A series machines.
I'll update the article when I get a few minutes... --Michael Geary 23:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Model specific information" - Parentheses

Where necessary, I corrected some mistakes, where parentheses "(" and ")" were attached to pieces of text. Where I left them as they were, were in places, such as

"(500, 510, 560(E, X, Z), 570(E))"

— where the E or other subtypes would directly follow the model number; while in

"(300, 310, 350, 360, 365, 380, 385, 390 (all with various sub-series))"

— text beginning with "(all..." had to be separated from "390", because from outside, parentheses must be separated with a space.
-Mardus 08:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Never turned a profit?

The article claims that the ThinkPad line never turned a profit for IBM.. I find this very hard to believe. IBM commanded high prices based on ThinkPad's perceived quality and support, which suggests high margins. They were also in the laptop game for over 10 years, which is a very long time to never turn a profit. IBM's Personal Systems Group, which included ThinkPad, did report a profit in several years, and it's hard to believe that sales of generally unpopular desktops propped up ThinkPad losses. I'm commenting out this claim for now. Rhobite 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't know if it's true or not, but it's very likely. IBM spent a lot of money in developing technologies used in the ThinkPads, plus, the high-quality tech support couldn't have been cheap. (Myscrnnm 16:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC))

[edit] The World's First Titanium Laptop

It was not Z60. (Wikimachine 18:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)) Changing it back

It was not Z6x either. Stop making things up. (Wikimachine 04:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

Um, guys, the titanium iBook predated the Z60 by quite a while. Was there another titanium ThinkPad before that? I never heard of one, and I've seen various references to the Z60 being the first titanium ThinkPad. I removed the sentence until someone can come up with a model number. Michael Geary 04:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is the site World's first titanium laptop. (Wikimachine 02:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC))

Bingo! TAWBOOK.PDF says that the A20p, introduced in May 2000, used "Titanium Composite in the cover for enhanced strength". --Michael Geary 03:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Plus, the article also states that they had it back in the ThinkPad 600 in 1998. (Myscrnnm 16:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC))

[edit] X60 Series

There is a X60 and X60S (for small). The X60 is the follower of the X30 Series. The X60s is follower of the X40 Series.

[edit] LV and ULV CPUs

What happened to LowVoltage (LV) and UltraLowVoltage (ULV) CPUs? Are they any good?

They are good. You just don't see them very often because only ultraportables use them. I think the justification for this would be that ultraportables require less energy to run (smaller screen, usually no optical drive, et cetera) and you have to a balance of power and endurance.(Myscrnnm 17:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC))

And lower voltage CPU = less power consumption = smaller battery size usable. Tabby 16:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] T60 and VMX

The text implies that the T60 is the first ThinkPad with the ability to run VMware. This is certainly not true, since I have run VMware on every ThinkPad I've owned since 1999. :-) I would correct the statement, but it also mentions Xen, which I am not familiar with. Can the T60 run Xen but older models cannot? --Michael Geary 23:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TransNote

The text said "This series was mediocre in processing power and was very expensive; thus, it had nearly no sales, and in one month the series was discontinued."

The TransNote was announced in February 2001. I have two conflicting sources for its withdrawal date. The TransNote support page says it was withdrawn in August 2002. However, the August 2003 edition of tabook.pdf lists it as a current model, and the October 2003 edition of tawbook.pdf says it was withdrawn in October 2003. Either way, that is much longer than a month.

The other statements seem like pure opinion. The TransNote probably did not sell very well, but the entries for the other ThinkPad models don't speculate on how many units were sold. So, I removed the entire sentence. --Michael Geary 06:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of ThinkPads on ISS

We know that the ThinkPad computers have been popular with NASA for use on spaceflights. I just saw a picture from ISS containing 5 ThinkPads. Mabye it could go into the Trivia section, which mentions ISS. Too bad at least two of the computers in the picture are running Windows. But the one on the left… could it be GNOME or KDE? —Bromskloss 11:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I love it! we need it immediately. thank you very much! (Wikimachine 19:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC))

I've added it now. —Bromskloss 17:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

ThinkPad was recently moved to IBM ThinkPad. Since Lenove now makes this line of laptops, I think the move should be reverted. This also applies to the Model M Keyboard. --Karnesky 11:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I no nothing about the keyboard, but as for the ThinkPad, I agree. Oh, and by "revert", you mean simply moving it again, right? —Bromskloss 15:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes--I think the page should just be moved back. --Karnesky 16:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the brand called IBM ThinkPad, regardless of who the owner is? I'm afraid that if we let this go, the article might as well be called Lenovo ThinkPad. (Wikimachine 17:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

"ThinkPad" is, by itself, a registered trademark. IBM/Lenovo most often refer to it without a brand prefix. I don't see your logic w.r.t. a name of "Lenovo ThinkPad." --Karnesky 18:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
There are advocates for "Lenovo ThinkPad" that I've found in my internet forum. So, with those in mind, I think that move to IBM ThinkPad gives more positive stance against any radical possibilities. (Wikimachine 01:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC))
Choosing the better of two bad solutions is not the right thing to do when a good solution exists. Your arguments are for why it shouldn't be "Lenovo ThinkPad." Do you have any for why it shouldn't be merely "ThinkPad?" Certainly the presence of discussion would be discouragement against moving it to Lenovo ThinkPad.. Also, your evidence of "Lenovo ThinkPads" is further evidence of the importance of ThinkPads which don't have the IBM brand!
Other brands that DO belong to a monolithic entity aren't prefixed by the name of that entity. See Walkman, for instance.--Karnesky 06:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the article should be "ThinkPad", not "IBM ThinkPad" or "Lenovo ThinkPad". After all, the article pertains to all ThinkPads, whether made by IBM or Lenovo. --Michael Geary 02:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I was only suggesting, but if it doesn't meet the guidelines, I'm fine. (Wikimachine 02:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Citations

Here are two that I did not get to put today. These can be used for criticisms section that I'm going to fix. (Wikimachine 02:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Criticism

I think including a criticism section in the article is a good thing, but we should be careful to adhere to WP:V and WP:NOR. Internet forums are not reliable sources. As such, I'm going to remove them for a second time. --Karnesky 23:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we don't need any criticism to begin with. Other laptops that are much less reliable don't have any sections like those. (Wikimachine 03:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC))
There's nothing wrong with criticism. In fact, it is important to include it to remain NPOV if it is verifiable. My solution would be to point out criticisms in those other articles, rather than to white wash this one. --Karnesky 03:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
What? Who can prove "Internet forum is not reliable"? Wikipedia is an Internet-based resource itself and has no right to discriminate the reliability of any other internet resources including forums, unless you have facts to disapprove them case-by-case! Actually, Wikipedia itself is criticized by somebody as a unreliable resource also. So, don't be hypocrisy or double-standard. Also, the support forum of Thinkpad I am citing IS more reliable than most internet resources. The registration of the support forum of Thinkpad is very strict, any free email address from gmail, yahoo, .. is not eligible. You have to have a real email associated with companies or universities to register and post messages. Please take off your colored glassess and do your homework first before deleting other body's efforts twice! --Leo 19:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Please read WP:RS for what standards we try to hold ourselves too. Using unreliable sources will not improve our reliability. I am actually a member of the forums & am registered with a hotmail.com address. I like the forums. I like my ThinkPad, but recognize that some people think the line is in decline. None of that is relevant for an encyclopedia--you're generating original research based on forum posts & that doesn't belong here. --Karnesky 19:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Use facts to disapprove my citations please. The only standard wikipedia should hold is to verify each citation case-by-case, not blindly accepting or declining them just because of the types of sources. I have seen many junks from academic papers, I also saw lots of insightful knowledge from forums. Also see some other opinions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources#Forums_as_reliable_sources --Leo 19:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
You raised another comment: "None of that is relevant for an encyclopedia" ?? How did you get such conclusion? Where is the guideline for what is relevant and irrelevant?? I 'd like to see. --Leo 19:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure when they changed registration policy. But I just tested it again using my hotmail email and got this: Sorry, but this e-mail address or address range (such as any anonymous/free e-mail like gmail, yahoo, hotmail) has been banned. You will need to use a real e-mail address if this is the case. This action is due to MALICIOUS users using such free and anonymous e-mail address. This is just another example of doing homework and verifying. --Leo 19:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please review the content of the Criticism section? I am concerned we remain NPOV. Liao/anonymous contributors are interpreting data much more negatively than I do (which is one reason I say that a lot of this feels like original research). I've tried to clean this up, but I want to make sure that I've shifted bias in the opposite direction. Thanks. --Karnesky 20:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was you who interpreted evidences in a biased way. Anybody with least common sense would say the 2006 Vendor Value Study [1] of IBM (ranked 17 out of 40) is an evidence of declining quality of IBM but you provided it as an evidence to support its sustained quality and services. You already changed the way you wanted. Why ask here again? Please don't delete my evidence as I am polite to keep yours. --Leo 01:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Please assume good faith and let other editors weigh in. Don't forget that I'm the one who added the Vendor Value study link. I don't think it belongs there, as it rates a lot more than just laptops (and, indeed, it is for CIOs--so is probably weighted to the server room). On what basis do you think that it belongs? --Karnesky 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I doubt that is the only thing you added but does not belong here. Let's make it clear now: I have good faith on others but NOT you, just because you provided some evidences in biased way first and selectively disposes them after criticized by others. And you constantly tamper others' evidences using so-called personal caveat comments. Therefore, you simply lost your credit as a un-biased editor in wikipedia. And I will NOT tolerate your sneaky behaviors. If wikipedia means anything to me, it must be a fair place for good practices to fight biased behaviors. --Leo 14:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I said that I added the link to the CIO survey, not that it was the only thing I added. I also maintain it should be removed. Please prove that that survey concerns laptops. It doesn't mention laptops in the criteria (only servers, storage, and networking).
The only other caveat I've added was that of being able to fix stuck pixels. That was one choice for the vote in that forum poll. If it was notable enough to include as a choice in that poll, why are you ignoring it?
Please also read WP:OWN--I'm not "tampering" with your edits--I'm trying to make the section more encyclopedic. I don't think your edits had a NPOV. I admitted that I may have shifted the bias, but we're both working to improve the article--not rant or rave on our personal feelings towards ThinkPads. --Karnesky 16:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikimachine's Comments on the cleanup

  • As one of top-notch business-class laptops, ThinkPad has gained its fame for stability and good customer service. Maybe this sentence is not necessary especially "top-notch" in an encyclopedic entry. "top-notch", "fame", etc. are called weasel words and to use them is against Wikipedia's NPOV] policy. Plus, the sentence gives this air of unnecessary extravagance as if it were written to sound complex just because there weren't much to write on.*
  • However, some customers complain that the quality of ThinkPad is downgrading in recent years, even before the Lenovo's purchase. Some customers have complained is more appropriate. has been downgrading is better. Maybe "purchase by Lenovo" is better because Lenovo's makes the independent clause too long while putting a prepositional phrase makes the independent clause sound shorter.
  • Some evidence they claim is should be For example, etc. We don't want any editorial we or they. It sounds as if we're gossiping.
  • I don't feel comfortable with using thinkpads.com forum as a source because I'm a user in that forum (named ThinkPad R) & I don't see how forums fit in an encyclopedia anyways.

(Wikimachine 03:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Hi, wikimachine, would you please just modify it as you wish. I have good faith on you based on your good comments here. :-) --Leo 13:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but for today, I guess my Wiki time's up, so I'll do it tomorrow. (Wikimachine 23:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Reverts

I reverted Liao's changes to the criticism section. This is because:

  1. The CIO report (which I had originally added) addresses servers/storage/networking, but not laptops.
  2. The PC World surveys are relevant and WP:RS & present a couterpoint to criticism
  3. The state department's refusal to use these over security concerns is, perhaps, the most stringent verifiable criticism of the line.
  4. Lenovo has "flip flopped" about the level of consumer adoption of their changes to the series.
  5. By presenting the individual number of dead/stuck pixels, we present a more accurate and less biased report of problems with the LCD screens reported on the user forums.

I haven't seen compelling reasoning which runs counter to any of these points. I would certainly welcome any argument, rather than to engage in a revert war. Thanks. --Karnesky 01:04, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Your interpretation of defect pixels (single out dead pixel) were totally unacceptable from the user's point of view. The US government thing has nothing to with the criticism of quality degradation,but a political fight/discrimination based on country origin or race. The way of "Despite.." writing was in consistent for a criticism section, much looking like a biased tamper. Those behaviors already disqualified you as a neutral writer for this article, not mentioning the biased evidences you raised first and discarded later. I have to closely watch this page to protect the integrity of wikipedia from your vandalism. --Leo 02:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, as a Chinese, I have every reason to accept your biased-to-positive edits in this article. But as a neutral wikipedian, I have to stick to the rules and be fair. I respect your efforts to "protect" this brand. But your behavior is to spoil it indeed, not true protection. --Leo 02:49, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Can someone else please contribute to this discussion? I'm upset that Liao is not assuming good faith on my part. I have added points of criticism to this article myself, so don't see why he continues to think I am "biased vandal." I also don't see how nationality has anything to do with this. Please respond to my points, above & reiterated, below:
  1. There's been no indication of why the CIO report is being used in an article about laptops when the report isn't about laptops.
  2. If you object to the phrasing of the PC World surveys, please rephrase them--they are relevant to this article & it hasn't been argued otherwise.
  3. The section is on criticism, not just declining quality. The U.S. State Department prohibition has certainly received much more press than dead/stuck pixels!
  4. There's been no attempt to address Lenovo's "flip flop."
  5. How is singling out the two different defects "unacceptable," especially when the original source does it?
--Karnesky 03:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
  1. The CIO report (which I had originally added) addresses servers/storage/networking, but not laptops. Unanswered & True
  2. The PC World surveys are relevant and WP:RS & present a couterpoint to criticism Unanswered & True Comment: Since NPOV requires both viewpoints, a source that provides pros and cons about an argument should never be neglected.
  3. The state department's refusal to use these over security concerns is, perhaps, the most stringent verifiable criticism of the line. Answered, I think this is original research, only scholarly articles that actually state that the US department's refusal to use Lenovo laptops is a sign of quality degradation should allow for the presence of the claim above.
The US government thing has nothing to with the criticism of quality degradation,but a political fight/discrimination based on country origin or race.
  1. Lenovo has "flip flopped" about the level of consumer adoption of their changes to the series. Not sure what's going on here
  2. By presenting the individual number of dead/stuck pixels, we present a more accurate and less biased report of problems with the LCD screens reported on the user forums. True and unanswered Comment: imagine that the criticism section did not provide # of dead/stuck pixels, but just claimed the decline of LCD quality in Lenovo laptops. It would sound like a typical POV criticism of a Chinese company.
Your interpretation of defect pixels (single out dead pixel) were totally unacceptable from the user's point of view. I don't think that this answers anything. How is it unacceptable?
  1. By the way, as a Chinese, I have every reason to accept your biased-to-positive edits in this article. But as a neutral wikipedian, I have to stick to the rules and be fair. I respect your efforts to "protect" this brand. But...
I have a comment for Liao on the framework in which s/he operates this debate. By beginning this discussion without good faith, and making a point from Chinese point of view, you are using non-neutral stance to counter Karnesky's arguments. I don't think anybody mentioned that Lenovo is bad because it's a Chinese company or anything. The criticism section already contains the sentence "even before Lenovo" got hold of the ThinkPad brand.

By the way, Merry Christmas! (Wikimachine 20:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC))

Thanks for the feedback. With respect to the U.S. State Department, I don't think it an indication of quality degradation and don't think the way that it is currently phrased makes it sound like it is. Quality degradation is not the only "concern" that can draw criticism. That there was such a ban and that it was prompted by security concerns is well documented. Some may have opinions that those concerns are protectionist paranoia & not agree with the decision (I, myself, think it may be somewhat idiotic when so much other stuff is also manufactured in China and allowed in the State Department). However, the facts as presented are verifiable. To emphasize this, I'll tack on "security" in addition to service/support/hardware. --Karnesky 23:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fan noise

I'm willing to accept the combination of the wiki and the forums as a source for fan noise complaints (as ONLY the forum has been used for the source of other criticism). What is unacceptable is to pretend that the wiki claims the ThinkPads are "known to produce" noise which "the manufacturer failed to acknowledge" (especially as the wiki links to IBM/Lenovo pages regarding fan issues). It is also appropriate to acknowledge work-arounds which are mentioned in both the wiki and in the forums. --Karnesky 17:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I see that criticism which only cited the forums has been purged. I'm fine with this & think we should also remove criticism which only cites the wiki. --Karnesky 02:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I think Karnesky's version is good. Wikimachine, please understand: there are no books or scientific journal articles about ThinkPads. And of all online sources out there, these are among the most reliable for ThinkPad-related information: [2] [3] [4] Piotras 18:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Read WP:OR. That clearly is formulating your own thesis from a multiple primary & undependable sources. (Wikimachine 23:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC))
My opinion is that Criticism is criticism. If there are negative things about Thinkpads, they should be pointed out loud and clear. It is undeniable that some Thinkpads have fan noise problems, that's what that entry is for. I am also fully aware of those workarounds, however, they can't appear in the Criticism section for obvious reasons. My point is: there is a criticism, just say the criticism. How difficult is that? Thinkweird 00:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
We are talking about Thinkpads per se, not Thinkpads that have been 'worked around'. If we mix the product itself and the workarounds (not to mention in the section of Criticism), then any product can be worked around to avoid criticism, thus losing the whole point of criticism. Thinkweird 00:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If there are known work-arounds, we should present them to maintain WP:NPOV. --Karnesky 01:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, there aren't any & that's exactly the point. For example, should we try to "work around" the fact that Martians exist but we just haven't found them yet because they are so advanced? There aren't any proofs. There are infinite things that don't have any proofs upon which they can be validated but without which some things might not sound NPOV or something like that. That you don't include all opinions is not a reason why they're not NPOV. (Wikimachine 21:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC))
If the point of criticism is not in the article, obviously the work arounds don't need to be. IBM/Lenovo have acknowledged fan issues [5][6] (3.03 release notes, as documented on the wiki). --Karnesky 21:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I read all of them. The first link doesn't really say that the fan noise is a problem, but it's more of a precautionary note for users who might suspect malfunction. From the second link you can click on the txt download that explains the problems that the patch fixes:
"- (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models."
However, this doesn't say anything about the fan noise in a problematic sense. To derive a theory that the fan noise was too loud or made weird noises from the user reviews/forum chats & the "reduced fan noise in some models" (which might have been done out of spite/no apparent reason but for what they saw as a minimal product enhancement/upgrade) is considered WP:OR. I don't want to argue too deeply into this; however, I want to bet that you guys are open before I consider making any concessions on this matter. (Wikimachine 21:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC))
A simple search of google will reveal that Thinkpads do have an issue of fan noises. Period. That's why the fan noise section Thinkpadwiki and TPcontrol is for.Thinkweird 23:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
But to use google under your own personal interpretation is WP:OR. (Wikimachine 02:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC))
The section for criticism is reserved for criticism only, NOT for workarounds. The reader should be presented a simple FACT that the fan noise issue exists. Thinkweird 23:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, criticism, but what can those criticisms be? Facts. And facts must be verifiable under Wikipedia's procedurals. (Wikimachine 02:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC))
How can you justify putting the workarounds in a criticism section? Not to mention whether the results of the workarounds are verifiable. Thinkweird 23:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Really, "workarounds" is what you mean by "fact". So, I'm not sure what you're saying at all. (Wikimachine 02:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC))
Workarounds and fixes are mentioned on EVERY page that mentions fan complaints. Leaving them out creates bias that isn't in the source material. --Karnesky 00:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
But, the same could apply for almost anything crazy. NPOV standards should not be used to justify illegitimate edits that violates WP:NOR, right? WP:NOR is more important than NPOV. Justifying one thing with another is even worse. (Wikimachine 02:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC))
I don't know why you think NOR is more important than NPOV--they're both official content policies. In any case, I think we're more-or-less on the same page... --Karnesky 02:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the fan complaints are less well sourced and less notable than any other criticism. If you want to work against WP:NPOV and WP:RS by pushing your opinion, I think it is better just to omit the complaint for now (until you can find sources which are on par with the other points of criticism. --Karnesky 00:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Look who is pushing the opinion here? Keep in mind it is a section for criticism. If you can falsify the following points, I agree to take the point out, if not, leave it there: 1) The FACT is: some thinkpads emits excessive noises; 2) the viewers have the right to know this FACT; 3) No opinion is given in that line. It is just a simple statement of FACT. Thinkweird 00:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Also try to falsify the following points: 1) Workarounds does not belong to Criticism section, that causes inconsistency. 2) Stating a simple FACT cannot cause bias because it is unadulterated FACT. You are welcome to add workarounds elsewhere. Thinkweird 00:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Please read WP:3RR
ALL laptops have complaints about fan noise. For example, see google results for HP Pavilion fan noise, yet note that there is no mention in HP Pavilion.
Further: not all facts are notable or verifiable enough to include in an encyclopedia.
Also, that there are workarounds and fixes created by both the manufacturer and users is also a simple statement of fact. Omitting them when the original sources don't creates a biased presentation of facts.
The objections raised have had nothing to do with whether your comments were true, but with whether they are reliably sourced, notable, and neutral.
Finally: of course workarounds and fixes are topical to the problems which they solve! --Karnesky 00:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
You are welcome to make any changes on HP Pavilion page.
Thinkpads fan-noise-issue is notable and verifiable. Search google please, and compare the result for HP Pavilion.
Viewers clicking on the link to thinkpadwiki will be aware of the 'fixes'.
Repeat one more time: adulterated or 'fixed' product are not the product per se.
The burden of proof is now on you to establish how effective those workarounds are, in a 'reliably sourced, notable, and neutral' way.
Thanks for let me know 3RR. Now I am aware of it. Thinkweird 01:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
None of that matters. If it violates WP:NOR, then that's the end of it, no matter how important you think the "fact" is in making the article NPOV. (Wikimachine 02:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC))
Wait a moment. If there is a violator of WP:NOR, then it is you. Read the WP:NOR again please.
Excluding "HP" from the google query yields 360K hits for pavilion fan noise, compared with only 344K for thinkpad fan noise. None of the sources make it particularly noteworthy & I don't think either article benefits from a discussion.
What keyword you used here? I begin to seriously doubt your objectivity here or your ability to do a simple Google search. Please do a search and verify your search results.
thinkpad fan noise pavilion fan noise --Karnesky 03:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
pavilion fan noise -thinkpadThinkweird 05:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
What's the point of this? It yields 319K results and thinkpad fan noise -pavilion yields 302K, so the Pavilion still has more hits.
Also, spend some time to read the search results. How relevant are the results related to the 'fan noise' we are talking here? Thinkweird 05:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I did. Most are forums and are not WP:RS. This is why I don't think fan noise belongs in EITHER article. --Karnesky 19:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Why should we include fan noise & not dead pixels? Or heat? Or various other issues that all laptop lines receive some sort of complaint about? They're just as trivial.
Trivial? Ok, verify it is trivial.
Go and ask the thinkpadwiki guys to take out the whole page, ask sourceforge to delete TPfantrol program, nullify the Google search results and numerous users' complaints. What a simple dismissive 'trivial' issue!
Wikimachine and I seem to think that the burden is on YOU to provide a more reliable source for fan noise issues. --Karnesky 02:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
So I am outnumbered here?
WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY --Karnesky 03:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
No amount of evidence will suffice for someone who wants to violate WP:NOR by UNSAY a fact or SUPPRESS the truth. I have provided ample evidence (thinkpad wiki and google search) now prove to me that it is 'trivial' or 'untrue'.
By the way, if you do think there is a issue of fan noise with HP Pavilion, go and add it. I will not suppress it. Thinkweird 03:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't hide the truth. Thinkweird 03:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If it is such an important issue, surely you'll be able to satisfy WP:RS without difficulty! --Karnesky 03:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I have to repeat what I said above "Go and ask the thinkpadwiki guys to take out the whole page, ask sourceforge to delete TPfantrol program, nullify the Google search results and numerous users' complaints. What a simple dismissive 'trivial' issue!"
You are contradicting yourself: you have admitted there are many workarounds in your post above, now you are saying it is 'trivial', not 'notable', needs verification and should be 'more reliable'. Weird, isn't it? Thinkweird 05:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, if there is a fan noise problem with HP Pavilion, you are more than welcome to add a criticism to it. Thinkweird 05:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

A proposal of conciliation: The fan noise is most noticeable on T43 series (that's what Tpfancontrol is intended for) and are not so obvious with other models. Shall we modify the line into:

Some particular Thinkpads, mostly notable T43 series, are known to emit excessive noises. There are many workarounds available to address this problem (insert the link to thinkpadwiki and Tpfan control).
what do you think? --Thinkweird 05:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Wait, there are at least two distinct problems: (a) the excessive noise problem and (b) the fan always on problem. Both should be addressed here. The problem with the T43 series is mostly (b), that's why TpFanControl was written -- to allow reprogramming the temperature thresholds. As for (a), they are not necessarily caused by the fan: [7]. Piotras 20:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, whether there are two problems or one, they're all your opinions. There's no reliable literature to back up those claims & therefore we are not responsible to include them in our NPOV calculations. And you cannot use NPOV to override WP:NOR. (Wikimachine 20:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC))
I'm sorry but by randomly referring to various general policies you don't sound convincing at all. Besides, I don't really know what you are criticising, because I haven't proposed my version yet. There is no original research here because the problems are well-described in reliable sources. And it is in fact you who is blatanly violating NPOV by suppressing legitimate criticism. Are you, or have you been, in any way affiliated with Lenovo or IBM? Piotras 20:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I thought you were talking about the fan noise. WP:NPOV, neutral point of view, which you had used to justify the inclusion of the fan noise criticism even at the expense of a reliable source. WP:NOR, which this violates. Yes, I'm a ThinkPad user. R40 2897B4U. (Wikimachine 21:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC))
Apparently, you didn't understand me. To rephrase the question: do you work for IBM or Lenovo? Is editing Wikipedia is a part of your job description? Such affiliations should be disclosed, I hope you realize it. Piotras 07:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
No, nor should that matter. Stay with the Wikipedia matters now. If you've read my user page... (Wikimachine 22:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC))

Here's a version that only summarizes what has already been reported, and does not draw any conclusions:

  • Some users of particular ThinkPad models, mostly the T43 series, complained that the fan never goes off, even when the computer is idle [8] [9]. To remedy that, a user contributed an open-source Windows application that allows setting the temperature thresholds that trigger the fan, which are normally hard-coded in the BIOS [10].
Hi Piotras, the criticism here is "noise" not always-on problems. If it is quiet, it can run as much it wants. So I would suggest that we focus on the noise part. Thinkweird 22:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
  • There have been isolated reports of high-pitch noises coming out of the computer [11].
If it is isolated, I would suggest we drop this line. Thinkweird 22:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Let me know what you think. Piotras 21:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restrict not Prohibit

According to the link to BBC site, the accurate word should be 'restrict' not 'prohibit' with regard to being a Chinese company. Thinkweird 23:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Department of State Concerns

I don't think they belong in the Criticism section. Maybe Trivia or Politics in the United States#Idiosyncrasies, if there is such a thing. Piotras 21:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Piotras, I can tell you are a liberal. Great. Thinkweird 00:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it does belong in the criticism section. Didn't I ask Piotras if Thinkweird was your sock puppet?(Wikimachine 01:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC))
I'm not sure if you guys are getting this.... using straw man arguments with a WP:SOCK#Straw_man_sock_puppet is a very severe violation & will definitely result in indefinite block. (Wikimachine 02:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC))
Wikimachine, I am who I am. Thinkweird 06:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikimachine, you know all the rules, but you label people too easy and too fast Thinkweird 07:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikimachine, you are a master suppressor! Thinkweird 07:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
If you really believe we are the same person (which is ridiculous), why don't you report it? I've already asked you to do so on your talk page but you didn't even respond. It appears to me that by doing this you are intentionally trying to disrupt the discussion because you lack arguments. "Pasting random policy links is not enough to make people shut up, so now let's move on to false accusations" -- is it so? Piotras 07:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
My talk page? No. You've never replied back to me. Ah. Actually you have. Never mind. My mistake. It probably got mixed up with all the other talks. I'm sorry. (Wikimachine 22:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC))

I made the change and moved it to trivia.

As wikimachine noted, this sounded like a straw-man argument. I've reverted that change. The state department criticism over the country of origin is the most well-documented point in the list! --Karnesky 16:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
'Sounds like a straw-man argument'...Ok. It only sounds like, please verify it. Thinkweird 17:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Your only comment in this thread was "Piotras, I can tell you are a liberal. Great. " How was this meant to show you support Piotras's argument? --Karnesky 17:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me. What is EXACTLY being criticized here? Lenovo? State Department? China? Thinkweird 17:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
As has been indicated, the ThinkPad is being criticized because the company which makes and sells them is based in China. --Karnesky 17:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
So it actually the country which is criticized here. Please pause a second and think: what are we criticizing here? A product should not be criticized solely based on the country it is manufactured. Thinkweird 17:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you saying in that line "I criticize Thinkpad because it is made in China"? Come on, you can do better than that Thinkweird 17:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Merely commenting it out reflects bad faith. The section isn't about criticism that you agree with--it is about criticism which has been reported by reputable sources, is verifiable, and is phrased with a NPOV. Yes, the U.S. state department criticized a PARTICULAR PRODUCT (the ThinkPad) due to the country of origin. Please revert your edit. --Karnesky 18:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Following this logic of criticism, you can say that "I criticize you because your skin is black. I criticize you because you speak Spanish". This criticism is generated from a deep-rooted bias and is in cohorts with RACISM. Not to say that the criticism is NOT substantiated. Thinkweird 18:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
"you said "Yes, the U.S. state department criticized a PARTICULAR PRODUCT (the ThinkPad) due to the country of origin". It is downright racism and bare bone prejudice. You can NOT criticize a product simply because of the country of origin. Thinkweird 18:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Karnesky wasn't criticizing ThinkPad b/c of its origin, though. It was the U.S. State Department. (Wikimachine 05:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC))
First: the concern the US State Department raised was nationalistic, not based on race. Refer also to WP:NOT#CENSOR. That you (and I) disagree with the State Department is not sufficient reason to exclude the material, as long as it is sourced & neutral. --Karnesky 18:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line is: a product is criticized solely and simply because its country of origin. This is far from neutral rather it is downright racism and prejudice. Please, keep that bottom line in mind. Thinkweird 20:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, nationalism is different than racism. This isn't to say that nationalism is necessarily "good," but may diffuse some passions.
Put a concern based on nationalism for a product is NOT a criticism for the product itself. It fits in the triva section perfectly. Nobody agrees your point so far and can't you see you are too strong-willed in this issue? --Leo 01:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Um, wikimachine seems to agree with me. It is true that Thinkweird doesn't, but WM suspects he's a sockpuppet. There is hardly consensus for your point of view. --Karnesky 02:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
This is also a side point. Neutrality means that WP must not take a side in a debate (for ANY reason). Neutrality does not mean ignoring reputable sources because they are distasteful--it means using the sources & reporting on them in a detached way.
Perhaps you are right that the U.S. State Department has a nationalistic (or even a racist) bias, but we are only controlling the NPOV of the article--not of the State Department. --Karnesky 20:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
If you still can't understand, let me make up a sentence here: "Me, thinkweird, do not trust and will restrict Karnesky's work on wikipedia, because he has a dark skin and speaks Spanish". Now put this on the British Blasphemous Castigation (B.B.C) website and make it 'neutral'. Thinkweird 20:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Neutral version: "User Thinkweird raised credibility concerns for user Karnesky because of his Hispanic origin."
good rephrasing but how come you call this neutral? Thinkweird 06:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The fact that this is in the criticism section makes the observational statement on the attack against Karnesky neutral. (Wikimachine 21:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC))
What you said above have serious logic problem: It is not neutral simply because it in criticism section. Prejudice is prejudice, no matter where it is. Thinkweird 06:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
So what if it's prejudice? According to you, I can't say that there is prejudice within the Department of State b/c saying that there is a prejudice is prejudice in and of itself? "What you said above has a serious logic problem". (Wikimachine 18:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC))

This is the most ridiculous thing to be listed in the criticism for a product. A product is being criticized solely because it is produced in China. For some brain-washed people, there is a sin for any Chinese product no matter what. --Leo 23:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Well... it's not that Department of State banned ThinkPads b/c Chinese products are terrible. It's more of communism vs. capitalism thingy... Also, US perceives China as a new emerging power & thus a threat. (Wikimachine 01:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC))
It is NOT a criticism for a product. It is just a political fight. I don't understand why somebody can not comprehensive this simple thing and constantly claims it IS a criticism. Well, justice is never being given. You have to fight for it. I will fight for the justice for this. A tiny Sino-American war has began! ...--Leo 01:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The section seems to be a better fit than trivita. There is clearly criticism her. The initial Lenovo-State Department deal drew criticism and Lenovo, itself, drew criticism because of the Chinese government’s large investments and influence in the company. All of this was to do with the ThinkPad line specifically, as opposed to other Lenovo products or services. --Karnesky 02:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
(1 )It is a political policy by a country A based on nationalism to a product by a country B. Let's say Chinese government issues a restriction of hiring USA people for classified work. Is it a CRITICISM to USA people???? (2) By the way, where on earth did the term CRITICISM appear in the BBC link you provide? Have you read the article at all before jumping into a conclusion that the concern was a CRITICISM? (3)At least two other editors(Piotras, Wikimachine ) agreed to put it into trivia section just in this discussion. Your assumption that a US government 's concern is non-trivial is purely an American-centric view, even not liberal American's view. Most of people in this world won't pay an attention to such concern when considering Thinkpad at all. It IS a trivial issue because it takes effect only when USA government(There are 200 countries in this world, if some people need to be reminded) wants to use it for classified work(not daily routine public work)! You are really lack of common sense and are against NPOV even after several people disagree you. --Leo 12:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Re. point 2, the word "criticism" need not appear for something to actually be criticism (look at the sources on the other points of criticism. Further: many other articles DID say that the US SD was criticized for the initial purchase or that they had instituted the policy because of criticism over Lenovo's stakeholders.
Re. point 3, I don't think Wikimachine agreed to put it in trivia. He explicitly states
"I think it does belong in the criticism section."
If I'm wrong on his opinion, I'll acquiesce to consensus. Otherwise, I think you're (again) singling me out for no reason. --Karnesky 14:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, since Wikimachine just cleared that he agrees to put the US SD concern into trivia section. The consensus so far should putting it into triva section as it is I think. Problem solved. Cheers :-) --Leo 01:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that the criticism section has been cut, I'm OK with leaving it in trivia. If a criticism section is reintroduced, this question should probably be revisited (as WM proposed that the section be cut AND (rather than "or") that the US SD point remain in trivia). --Karnesky 00:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Wait a minute. Who authorized you to cut the major part of the criticism section? I thought any major cut should go through some discussion. I revert it back and will watch it unless you have shown enough support for the cut. --Leo 01:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standard of sourced or not

Per Karnesky's "dead/stuck pixel criticism which isn't properly sourced; US SD criticism IS sourced and IS "criticism"

I just want to say Karnesky's standard for sourced or not is too biased. While a US government's concern is sourced(regardless if it is idiotic or reliable), he will feel obligated to add it, non-trivially. And if there are end-users' complains for dead/stuck pixel, he treats it not well-sourced since no newspaper/TV/Radio reported it. Isn't there anything fundamentally wrong with his standard by trusting propaganda rather than end-users' life stories? Why do you care editing Wikipedia if individual users' experience is not a kind of source equal to TV/newspaer/Radio? Anyway, it is just my opinion to Karnesky's standard used here. I welcome any comments regarding this if you are interested also :-) --Leo 13:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know of this, let me check it out later. (Wikimachine 14:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC))
It isn't my standard & I don't appreciate being singled out. You had actually convinced me that the forums (though FAR from ideal) were borderline "good enough," but I wasn't the one who removed the pixel criticism in January with the comment
"deleted the so called "poll" for pixel problems on Thinkpad, a 59 votes poll should never be included in any citation as it have a huge error margin.)"
59 votes poll is good enough for sample of end-user experience unless you can find a larger one. It is often more reliable than most reviews shown in paid magazine, newspapers, TV. How many votes do they have? --Leo 01:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
WikiMachine criticized the forums being used as a source in this talk page, invoking WP:RS several times. This has convinced me that my initial opinion -- that forums weren't reliable sources -- was correct. So, why are you singling me out--others have expressed similar concerns! --Karnesky 14:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The entire criticism section is not properly sourced. It should be deleted. The US Department thingy looks nice on the trivia section. (Wikimachine 04:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC))
I apologize if I confused your original target for "isn't properly sourced". But I do want to point out that end-user opinions are most relevant ones regarding to product quality, not a paid magazine/newspapers. We can have a rest and enjoy wikipedia from now on since it seems the arguments have reached agreement now. The article is in good shape indeed. --Leo 01:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I'd agree with WM's remark (the downgraded return policy seemed to meet WP:V), but I removed the "criticism" section due to your apparent agreement with him. --Karnesky 00:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been around for a while and I see that this article is on a good way to become an advertisement. I understand User:Wikimachine has an agenda, as he stated on Dec 5, 2006: Maybe we don't need any criticism to begin with (now that's the spirit!) but then you (Karnesky) replied: There's nothing wrong with criticism. In fact, it is important to include it to remain NPOV if it is verifiable. My solution would be to point out criticisms in those other articles, rather than to white wash this one.. I fully agree with what Karnesky wrote then and I am going to restore this section, because this is Wikipedia, not Wikiadia. Piotras 13:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there should be criticism, but the criticism needs to be well-sourced & forums/wikis just don't cut it. Per comments from Wikimachine and Leo, above, I've excised those points of criticism which were under-sourced. We should probably put this in paragraph form & make use of citation templates to fast-and-loose additions. --Karnesky 21:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand your cutting. Where is my apparent agreement with him about what? We were discussing the US statement stuff within the criticism section, nothing to do with the other part. There must be some misunderstanding. So, I moved this section into the right place and I reverted the criticism section back. We spent a lot of time in justifying one single item in the section, but you just deleted all without hesitation. :-( --Leo 01:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
On the 15th, Wikimachine proposed cutting it because it isn't properly sourced. On the 16th, you said "it seems the arguments have reached agreement now." Since this came after Wikimachine's comment & in a section on reliable sources, I thought you were agreeing with him. --Karnesky 03:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another place to put it

If you don't agree this should be in Trivia (maybe you're right, it made significant news after all), another option I see is to rename the Design history section to Brand history (even now it's not only about the design) and put the information about the acquisition there as another paragraph, where this "criticism" could be mentioned. Piotras 14:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ransom

Please give Lenovo a call (866-96-THINK) and verify the price before suppress this information. When I called, the price for that laptop was over $3000. Thinkweird 15:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Main Picture

The main picture for this article should be of a ThinkPad T series, since the T series is IBM/Lenovo's flagship series. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.227.190.55 (talk) 05:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

I like the current picture & it's a featured picture. An article needs only one picture, buddy. (Wikimachine 22:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC))

I agree, I think a T60 wide should be featured, why is there an old R model on there? The R series is entry level and that is an old unit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.52.184.149 (talk • contribs) 03:27, Feb 7, 2007 (UTC).

I personally think that R52 was one of the best (and the R50 & R51) laptops ever introduced in the history of mankind because it's 1.5" thick but it looks so thin. But, I don't care a bit about whether or not T or R gets featured. The R52 picture is a featured picture. We're going to keep it. Simple as that. Thanks & have a nice day editing! (Wikimachine 23:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
Plus, (I didn't post the picture) it's really insulting to those who worked to get those pictures done when other people replace them & say that their pictures are simply better or that the current works are poorly done. (Wikimachine 23:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

I second the opinion that the picture should be the flagship T series, preferably T60. Thinkweird 00:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that the current R-series picture is fine, but if it were to be replaced, the T4x would be a nice replacement, because it's an original IBM design.(Myscrnnm 17:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC))
Like I said, Thinkweird, have respect for the featured picture that this user created based on R52. Pics have always been focused on necessity and not based on "slight improvement"s. It's pretty unreasonable to sacrifice 3 megabyes of the server's space just to get the flagship pic of the ThinkPad... right? Plus, where's the guarantee that the picquality will be better? R52 pic is featured pic, and we're staying at that.
P.S. I personally think that the 6th generation ThinkPads look disgusting. The T60, X60, R60, Z60, etc. all lack the blue & red colors on the mouse buttons. The PCMIA slot eject button & the CD drive button lack the purplish blue color (now white)... The T60 widescreen has the "Lenovo" sign under the screen. All the new ThinkPad's look boxy & ugly & heavy & thick. Plus, they have really short battery life (compared to 6 hours for R40, 5 hours for T41, etc.) (Wikimachine 21:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC))

(Wikimachine 21:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC))

[edit] No mention of the S series ?

These Thinkpad subnotebooks are ultrasmall, and still unique in their range, here's an article i found elsewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.244.150.223 (talk) 22:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

What about the PC100? I played with one at IBM once, and they were incredible small... I am not sure if that is the one that could fit in a PCMCIA Type III slot, but at one of the IBM labs I saw a Thinkpad branded unit that when closed would fit into a slot in a normal size laptop. 70.242.112.141 11:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To whoever keeps readding the section under critisism that Lenovo has a poor return period

To whoever keeps readding the section under critisism that Lenovo has a poor return period, I am a Lenovo employee working in direct sales where we have a 30 day no questions asked return people with NO restocking fee.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.52.184.197 (talk • contribs) 06:03, Feb 4, 2007 (UTC).

That's not what this Lenovo page says. --Michael Geary 07:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Your link is to a special offer, which isn't official policy. Also, since the special offer had now expired, the page current does not work. 24.222.16.170 (talk) 17:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
PS, I had removed this particular criticism for the reasons given here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.16.170 (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

That's Lenovo USA, Lenovo Canada has no restocking fee and is 30 days. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.52.184.149 (talk • contribs) 03:08, Feb 7, 2007 (UTC).

"Courtesy of International Business Machines Corporation. Unauthorized use not permitted."

If this statement applies to the suspiciously professional-looking photo of the ThinkPad, then perhaps the photo should not be here. -- Wapcaplet 05:50, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree. This image should be under GNU or not here at all. Ilyanep 16:44, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)


Ugh... I made some minor changes and the formating got all messed up :(

[edit] First Thinkpad

How could the first thinkpad be a 486 model with a color screen when I own a 386 model with a monochrome screen? X570 04:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't even think it was 486 nor 386. But IBM introduced lower-end ThinkPads after the 1st one (numbers go down) 700C was the 1st. (Wikimachine 04:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] First ThinkPad was a PEN COMPUTER

As of 2007-04-20, the article says "The design of the commercial versions differed significantly from the prototype's keyboard-less tablet design." Indeed the original and first use of the name "ThinkPad" was on a pen computer from IBM that ran the PenPoint operating system from GO Corporation. I believe this was the 700T. IBM sold this in limited quantities, primarily for some corporate trials, so it was more than a prototype but less than a widely available model. (I was there: I worked at GO, saw the launch machines, and borrowed some of the ThinkPad logos because it was so obviously an amazingly cool product name.) -- Skierpage 07:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Tell me more about it. I'm a ThinkPad fan & I have the book "ThinkPad: A Different Shade of Blue". (Wikimachine 16:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Lenovo Ultrabay

I think this whole section goes into too much detail and is of limited relevance in a general-purpose encyclopedia. ThinkWiki is a better place for such information and it already has an exhaustive article about Ultrabays [12]. My idea is as follows: let's (1) get rid of the compatibility table, (2) rewrite the text into a single, general paragraph and (3) rename the section to 'Accessories' (or something similar) so that eventually other gadgets could be mentioned there as well -- but in brief. Piotras 12:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serious rework potentially needed?

This article seems to be awfully large and unwieldy, and seems to focus far too much on specific model details. Is a complete guide to each ThinkPad series really necessary, or would a link to something offsite (like thinkpads.com or ThinkWiki) be more wise? Or, perhaps something along the lines of how the Chevrolet Camaro article is split, with a quick rundown in the main body and an article detailing the finer points for each laptop and/or series? Ayocee 16:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the specs are unnecessary. Rather, we should focus on the development of ThinkPad. I have a book ThinkPad: A Different Shade of Blue. I really love the book & you can order it for 0.50 cents plus shipping on Amazon, but I just didn't have time to fully implement the contents from that book to the article. (Wikimachine 22:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC))

Let me comment about the new section "Lenovo's Contributions to ThinkPad". First, the title is POV & inaccurate.... "Changes", "Fixes", "Additions", "Improvements" are better candidates. Second, it is my personal opinion that ThinkPads were as good as they are now even when they were under IBM... You can make a powerful computer without using carbon fiber, "roll-cage", etc... I think that recently companies have been adding these features as "technologies" that used to be inherent part of the products but lost or reduced over time due to price competition. (Wikimachine 16:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Is the first line of Trivia subjective?

The first line of the Trivia section states that "The ThinkPad is widely regarded as having the highest-quality laptop computer keyboard available" but provides a link <http://laptopmag.com/Review/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T60.htm> that does not support the claim. The author of the cited source feels that the ThinkPad T-series has a great keyboard, but he does not mention experts who share his opinion. Stating that the ThinkPad's keyboard is "widely regarded" as the highest-quality laptop keyboard is misleading at best. (Dsrguru 18:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC))

I think that it would benefit from either rephrasing to "Some regard the ThinkPad as having....." or adding a few more citations. Do note that the current review is overwhelmingly positive about the keyboard (calling it "unsurpassed," "excellent," and "best"). So your only gripe is the quantity of people who share this opinion. Surely similar glowing reviews could be listed too? --Karnesky 18:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
That is correct. My gripe is with the adverb "widely," which is unsubstantiated by the cited review. I have heard many positive comments from ThinkPad users about the keyboard, but unless supported by many sources, the claim seems too subjective. Besides, even if other similar reviews were cited, the claim that the ThinkPad is "widely regarded as having the highest-quality laptop computer keyboard available" would remain unsubstantiated because the reviews would not be in comparison to every other laptop on the market. I think that the original wording should be rephrased as you stated to "Some regard the ThinkPad as having... ." However, then it wouldn't be very noteworthy to put in Trivia, would it? (Dsrguru 19:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
Lenovo describes the keyboards as "award winning." If we can determine which specific award(s) it has won, I think that the best solution would be to note that in the accolades section. --Karnesky 20:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
That is a good solution. (Dsrguru 22:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
I can't immediately find the awards, though other accolades are listed at lenovo. For now, I'll just replace the quantity of people. It'd be great if someone did find the specific awards, though..--Karnesky 22:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R40 based on the T30?

"Based on the T30 series, this line of notebooks includes the R40 and the R40e." How is this true? The R40 was Pentium M/Centrino, and completely different. The R32 was very similar to the T30, the R40 was not.

[edit] APS and ISS

The APS is claimed to detect whether the ThinkPad is falling and to shut down the harddrive if it does. On ISS one is under constant free fall, so how comes the APS doesn't immediately shut down the harddrive? Is it possible to deactive APS or do the astronouts have specially designed ThinkPads? // Jens Persson (193.10.117.53 07:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC))

Yes, APS relies on software to shut down the harddrive. It can easily be deactivated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.248.13 (talk) 18:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] R60 Series

I noticed that the Thinkpad article doesn't have a section for the R60/R61 series. I don't know enough about them to add to the article but it would be nice if there was one! Thanks. Aqua32 (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] THINKPAD PASSWORDS

Does anyone know how to clear all of the boot password. I have tried taking the CMOS battery out. I have even taken it (T-22) apart and still can't get it to clear. IBM / LENOVO support told me that the motherboard hat to be replaced. This can't be the only way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.188.191 (talk) 11:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC) - of course there was ways to clear it. the password is writen to a security chip, usually amtel, try google it instead of making a wikipedia entry. 24.193.251.249 (talk) 06:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Remove shipping issues from critism section

to put these into a section of critism, i mean, you gotta be kidding me right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by O1001010 (talk • contribs) 07:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The entire criticism section is pretty heavily slanted. I just removed a line complaining about how new Lenovo Thinkpads don't use the same AC adapter connector as the one IBM used for roughly a decade or so. Sure, if you've got a stack of old IBM power bricks (...like me) it sure is nice not worrying about which one you grab, but do other manufacturers use common power bricks across their lines for years on end? I consider the previous design more of a happy convenience, rather than calling the switch to the new design a serious criticism on Lenovo's part. Ayocee (talk) 16:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thinkpad 110

Should the Thinkpad 110 be on this page? This was a Japan only palmtop model. I nearly bought one as a grey market import while I was living in Hong Kong, except it was a little under powered compared to the Libretto 100 that I eventually bought. Apparently journalists loved it because they could type with one finger while holding it in the other hand and because it had a built-in modem, allowing them to transmit typed stories back to the office. It ran Japanese Windows 95. More details at http://www.alfar.com/~amanda/pc110/ Stepho-wrs (talk) 08:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)