Talk:Thich Quang Duc/Archive1

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Contents 1 Heart cremation 2 IPA 3 Pronunciation 4 Reference To Madame Nhu 5 He cut his tongue 6 His car 7 The Car Isn't His 8 Requested move 8.1 Survey 9 vietnam war 10 How did he do it? 11 Is there a definitive source for the JFK statement? 12 llamas 13 Margaret Higgins content 14 two choices 15 Censorship 16 Basic informations 17 Name of the article 18 the persecution of Buddhism

[edit] Heart cremation

The article states: "cremate his heart only resulted in it remaining intact". I assume remaining intact is unusal but does this defy scientific understanding? Would this be considered a miracle? If so, perhaps this statement should be qualified as a claim. WpZurp 02:12, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've yet to come across any sources investigating why his heart only shrank in size but otherwise remained intact from the cremation, most probably because no one bothered to examine it. The heart remaining intact is considered to be unusual since cremation facilities are usually more than adequate at melting even bone, but something about the heart may have allowed it to survive relatively unscathed, in a chemical sense.

To the Buddhist community, yeah, its considered a miracle, since apparently they've seen this sort of thing before. Perhaps we should note this in the article, that the Heart doesn't seemed to have been examined before scientifically, and is claimed by the Buddhists as holy. CABAL 11:16, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cremation does not melt bone, check the page you linked. If you were purposefully exaggerating, apologies. Also, I'd agree that this sounds like a claim made by a religious group. There might be scientifically sound and feasible explanations, but I don't know of any (I'm not a scientist, so I easily could be wrong). Now, if they took a fresh, moist heart and tried to burn it, that would fail, miserably, except under extreme heat for a fairly long duration. Think of it as a hunk of steak, which will blacken and char a lot before it ever gets close to really burning. That sounds like a possible explanation to me. Anyone know what sort of cremation process they tried? Sdr 21:11, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, it makes sense that the heart would survive his initial self-immolation. Think about its physical position in a burning body - the rest of the body would simultaneously insulate it and protect it, meaning it would be cooked very effectively but would be reached last by the flames. Also, the liquids in the body would move towards the middle to an extent, meaning the heart and central organs would be significantly moister. --boiled_elephant 10:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPA

Doesn't the little line throught hte D in Thich Quang Ðuc mean that it should be pronounced like a regular D? If so, either the IPA or the Vietnamese letters are wrong (I supsect the former). - Nat Krause 02:52, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

You're right, the IPA is wrong. The person who added it didn't know what they're doing. DHN 05:52, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Then instead of simply deleting the IPA why didn't you correct it? -Tydaj 2 July 2005 19:32 (UTC)

Because we don't know how to fix it, and it was busily misinforming those who made the mistake of trying to learn things from it. Deleting things is not only an option but a responsibility for Wikipedia editors. - Nat Krause 02:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

How is Thích Quảng Ðức pronounced? Scrooge 13:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Tich Quong Thuk--220.238.238.21 13:22, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

T'hich Kwang Duch?--220.238.18.253 05:57, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

How do you pronounce it? The sound thing is broken. MattTheMan 17:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The audio file is working properly. You must not have a sound client capable of playing OGG files. I highly recommend Winamp. - BalthCat 21:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe it's my laptop. I am using Winamp and did the whole add ;OGG thing. I will try it with my desktop - MattTheMan 04:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure how I could help you, unfortunately. It works for me. (What do you mean by "add ;OGG" exactly?) Perhaps updating Winamp is in order? - BalthCat 05:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Didn't work for my desktop either

It's impractical to have the name written only in accented script. It should also be written in its common Anglicized form at the beginning of the article. --Bentonia School 13:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference To Madame Nhu

Am I alone in the feeling that the sub-entry on this woman might be misplaced? The quote is somewhat distasteful - I know, it's only what she said, but it's still a very derogatory and racist comment and might provoke vandalism. I can see why it was inserted, but is it even relevant to this article, which concerns Thích Quảng Ðức as an individual, and not the political affairs in Vietnam of the time? Would it be better placed somewhere in the article for Vietnam or Self-Immolation, perhaps? --boiled_elephant 11:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It would seem to me that the self-immolation and the political affairs of the time are central to who he was. A better question: does this quote accurately describe the reaction of the administration? Orthografer 18:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I just finished a guided tour in Vietnam and our Vietnamese tour guide said she got the nickname Iron Butterfly. So which is it? Dragon Lady, or Iron Butterfly? 203.210.228.239 15:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)Curious Minds203.210.228.239 15:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] He cut his tongue

Some references I've seen cite fellow monks saying that he cut his tongue so he would not scream when he burned. Or was that an another monk?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.75.231 (talk • contribs)

• Cutting his tongue would not effect his ability to scream/yell. --Durin 22:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Did he know that? --Ptcamn 10:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

...He wasn't, by all accounts, a total idiot, so he'd have known. Besides, it's not really in character for a Buddist - the focus is on self-control, as I understand it. --boiled_elephant 13:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] His car

Quite interesting,could anyone clarify how he got a car? or it was someone driving him? I can't just imagine a buddhist monk having a car(maybe not today,but this is 1970s).Also this article needs to be expanded due it significance in Vietnam War I fount this on article page: Eyewitness accounts state that Thich Quang Duc and at least two fellow monks arrived at the intersection by car, Thich Quang Duc got out of the car, assumed the traditional lotus position and the accompanying monks helped him pour gasoline over himself. He ignited thegasoline by lighting a match and burned to death in a matter of minutes.

From the prevailing point of view he has been "exclusively conceptualized as a transhistorical, purely religious agent, virtually homologous with his specifically religious forebears and ancestors."

To express will by burning oneself, therefore, is not to commit an act of destruction butto perform an act of construction, that is, to suffer and to die for the sake of one's people. This is not suicide.

He is one of the leaders of one of the largest Buddhist groups in VN at the time. I would find it much stranger if he didn't have a car.--lt2hieu2004 09:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Car Isn't His

My Mother was witness to this, and she claims the car was not his. My Mother watched him walk from his pagoda to the intersection. The car happened to be there when the picture was taken.

Dan Harley, Jr. - danharley@yahoo.com

[edit] vietnam war

didn't this have to do with the vietnam war somehow? i'm no historian, but i read somewhere that this act changed many americans' viewpoints on the war. Joeyramoney 00:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge it had nothing directly to do with the war, although a lot of people seem to think that. Maybe I'm wrong. On the other hand, perception tends to trump reality, so if many Americans believed he was protesting the war, that might have changed their minds anyway. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 00:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

This had a lot to do with the war. I don't have time to provide a full history lesson, but a good start would be understanding what happened during the Geneva Conference (1954) and what the agreements were supposed to bring in 1956 (free and democratic elections throughout Vietnam). As you can probably guess, the United States became involved in preventing these elections (don't get me started!). This was due to the widely held belief tha Ho Chi Minh and the Vietnamese Communist Party would gain control of the entire country if free elections were held. The Western belief at the time was that Communism was 'spreading' and the domino theory meant that interference in the government of Vietnam was required (As an aside, this reading of the politics of Ho Chi MInh is incredibly naïve). The United States' chosen successor, Diem, was a strong Catholic (his brother was Archbishop of Saigon) whose administration began to persecute Buddhists, whom he believed were in league with the Communists. Bingo ... there's your connection to the war. Needless to say, there are numerous books written about all of this ... and plenty of articles here too, but there's a brief connection. Also, despite the date of this incident preceeding the arrival of US troops in Da Nang in August 1965, the city of Saigon was already filled with US advisers (CIA mostly) who were trying to construct a "legitimate" government with sufficient strength to oppose the North. --WibblyLeMoende 05:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

While you can argue that point, it is important to note that his act was not in protest against hostilities, as they had not yet broken out on a large scale. His main purpose was to bring Western attention to the oppressive totalitarian regime run by Diem. Tabmoc72 23:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If Diem's regime was totalitarian, how do we call the one, which came later? A hyper-mega-totalitarian? Xx236 13:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Which reading of the politics of Ho Chi Minh is better than the one presented above?Xx236 13:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC) "free elections were held" - who was to control the quality of the elections? In Poland no free elections were possible 1944-1991.Xx236 10:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How did he do it?

Does anyone have more information on how Thích Quảng Ðức commited self-immolation? I am doing a report on it for future use in classes —Preceding unsigned comment added by MattTheMan (talk • contribs) 10 June 2006

[edit] Is there a definitive source for the JFK statement?

U.S. president John F. Kennedy was so moved by the incident that he had Quảng Đức's picture in the Oval Office.

I do recall a documentary stating this, but I can't quite recall the name. Or is there a reliable link that proves this? 68.195.47.239 16:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be a pretty neat trick, given that JFK was shot by the CIA er, by Lee Harvey Oswald about seven months before Quảng Đức immolated himself -- indeed, before the US even started to escalate the Vietnam War. I'd love to see a source on this too. Micahbrwn 07:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

JFK was assassinated in November of 1963, five months after Quảng Đức self-immolated. —Captaindan 11:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, it depends what you call escalation ... By the time of this incident, the US was already calling most of the shots in Southern Vietnam. One of the great ironies is that JFK approved the deposing (and almost certainly the assassination on November 2) of Ngo Dinh Diem. Live by the sword, die three weeks later by the (same?) sword. One quote attributed to Madame Nhu (sister-in-law of Diem) is that she said to Jacqui Kennedy, "Now you know what it feels like." --WibblyLeMoende 05:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] llamas

23 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.154.10.249 (talk • contribs)

WTF? Micahbrwn 07:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do not post in the llamas section. Drutt 22:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Margaret Higgins content

I've just edited out a bunch of stuff about Margaret Higgins' books that dealt tangentially with the issue of self-immolation, but appeared designed to advanced political claims more than to provide information about Thích Quảng Đức, who wasn't mentioned at all in the four paragraphs I struck. That said, looking at the history that content appears to have been there for a while, so I'm not sure if some people saw the value of it. Chris 02:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

AGree. I did it before and someone re-added it. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] two choices

I am contacting user:Blnguyen on the talk page so a record will be left of the conversation regarding the main article's content (see pop-culture section (DO NOT ARCHIVE) for more details):

I’ve read over the WP:TRIVIA page and the material is not "speculation, rumor, invented "facts", or libel." It also says, "Don't simply remove trivia sections [like you did], but seek to integrate each fact into the article in a more organized fashion." However, the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons says that the articles should not have trivia sections. It also says the material should be integrated into the page or added to the talk page for future integration. So we have two choices: 1) integrate 2) talk page. I have a feeling you will pull for the talk page.

I’ll admit that the first bit about the science fiction movie that makes a reference to self-immolating monks does not necessarily belong on the page because it does not mention Thich by name. However, the south park info does belong because Chef holds a picture of Thich in front of him (on which the camera zooms in on). This material is of proper length and is not a series of bullet-pointed sentences. And the album cover does use Thich’s image as well. I feel with a little rewriting and an introduction to the material, it could be integrated into the page. It could be put on the talk page for now, but it can’t stay there forever. Thoughts? (Ghostexorcist 20:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC))

Yes, I think the material should be included, but rewritten as not just to be a list of occurrences with bullet points.-h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 14:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

As I explained above, they were two large paragraphs, not bullet-pointed lists. (Ghostexorcist 21:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC))

The info has been incorporated into the article. --Ghostexorcist 19:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Censorship

It's almost obvious that the two journalists were informed, where and when the suicide was to take place. It's the right place to discuss Communist propaganda, don't remove my texts.Xx236 09:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Basic informations

• The article doesn't inform, what were "the persecution of Buddhism by South Vietnam's Ngô Đình Diệm administration".
• How did it happen that two journalists eyewitnessed the suicide and noone Jan Palach's or Ryszard Siwiec's?

What is the source confirming the alleged Madame Nhu's phrase? What did Madame North Vietname leader say about the death of hundreds thousands? Xx236 09:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the article

The article is about the Self-immolation of Thích Quảng Đức, so maybe it should be moved to such article. If it's a biographical article, basic data are needed or stub.Xx236 08:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this is a question worth discussing. The subject of the article could be of one of three things - 1) Thích Quảng Đức 2) the self-immolation of same, and 3) the picture.

As far as I am aware, Thích Quảng Đức is not notable in and of himself, so if there deserves to be an article at all, perhaps the subject should be the incident or the image. Are there any sources indicating which is the more notable? Skomorokh ^incite 16:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the persecution of Buddhism

What was the persecution of Buddhism - how many believers were killed/imprisoned? Were all monasteries expropriated? Such were the persecution of Buddhism in the SU, Mongolian People's Republic, Tibet, not mentioning Democratic Kampuchea. If you don't know it's POV. You can write eventually what he believed to be ....Xx236 10:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Corrected. Skomorokh ^incite 04:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)