User talk:The undertow/Archive 11

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Archive 11

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RfA

I think I'm being sockpuppeted, and I don't like it. However.....--Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, tell me about it. Let's see what we can do. Or just stay cool and ride out your well-deserved, no-brainer of an RfA. Up to you, but I'll help. the_undertow ^talk 04:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Just briefly, I've never heard of this guy. So I wondered why Jeffrey O. Gustafson would have emailed him- I went through their talk pages & contribs and cross-correlated them and found only one obvious article they had in common- Spoo, when User:Edward Morgan Blake reverted a hidden comment that JOG had inserted. That didn't seem to be a sufficient nexus to establish that sort of relationship, to me. ALso there are large gaps in Blake's contributions, which means he's away doing something else. His talk page shows that right from the beginning of that account he has a good grasp of mechanics and policy, so had been around for a while. To be honest, to me, it sucks, but if that's the only Oppose I get I won't worry. What does worry is that it might blow up, after all, it's a long time ago now and I have moved on a long way. Advise as you think fit; there's no way I can sleep now. Regards, --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Well as a user with a fun-filled existence of anxiety disorders, former agoraphobia and plenty of klonipin usage, I would recommend that at this point, simply ignore it. The user admitted to bias at the end of the oppose, and that generally draws very little inquiry. People know that dealing with Jeffrey can be very difficult for those who are not accustomed to his style. Admittedly, this is his friend sticking up for him. But if every user that had a diff with Jeffrey... I mean, I admire him, but as a user, we have had it out before, but it's because his style is one of an acquired taste for me. Consider what the opposer said, and I wouldn't even reply. Candidate's who reply directly to their opposers can be seen as aggressive. Other people will come to your rescue, given your history. But seeing as how it's gone unnoticed, it means that the community doesn't view it as a problem. You are doing fine. I know it's easier said than done, but I'd stop watchlisting for a while. We'll be here when you wake up. the_undertow ^talk 04:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try & chill. Perhaps there might be a future for me as a checkuser. Regards--Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a future for you as anything here. That's why you have ONE oppose. If you didn't have any opposes, I'd be more concerned, because it means you didn't participate enough! :) the_undertow ^talk 04:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Two now. Shame about the herd mentality, but what I really need now is the sleep I didn't get last night, and some Effexor. Re the sockpuppetry, perhaps that wasn't the right word to use. However, I do prefer honesty and transparency. That's why this, which I found on a more detailed analysis, makes me interested, but not paranoid. Ho hum. Regards --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I just spent the last week on Effexor XR. That shit fucked me up big time. I don't know how anyone can get through the side effects of the first week. I seriously was leik the guy in Office Space and just decided not to give a shit about anything. I used to take the non-xr, about 7 years ago, which worked really well. But the XR shit really fucked with my head, so I'm just relying on clonazepam for now. Obviously I'm transparent as well, haha. Hey, it's a chemical thing, just like your thyroid or diabetes, right? the_undertow ^talk 02:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Something to peruse whilst you are reading...

Image:Youlikedit.jpg

To all those who don't realize that I think Chip is sexy. Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 05:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

the_undertow ^talk 05:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this the bit where I throw up? Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 05:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Was it you or the Parasite?

Probably unless you are secretly in love with him? :) Typical of the Bathrobe Cabal, and an excellent way to prove Lara wrong. (The cabal is full of half-naked people) — DarkFalls ^talk 05:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this the_undertoe's talk page or Hell? Cause it's fucking hot in here. Lara❤Love 05:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Image:Couch2.jpg
the_undertow ^talk 05:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC) That is the coolest couch. Write it in your will that I get it. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 05:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

So you can have a reason to off me? Hell no! I'm going out with a broken neck and a sense of unsatisfied homo-erotic curiosity. the_undertow ^talk 05:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Lara, remind me to note this against the Bathrobe cabal. "Today, the undertow has expressed his desires for "Chip" and the funny-looking couch" :) — DarkFalls ^talk 05:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I admit, that narcissism could be a problem, but who doesn't love Chip? the_undertow ^talk 06:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Me. I don't. Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 06:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I am watching To Catch a Predator right now. I don't feel comfortable partaking in this conversation anymore! (PS The couch is mine!) <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 06:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

HAHAHA. LMAO. Trust Me. the_undertow ^talk 06:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

LMAO!!!<3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 06:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

DarkFalls, I can't help it if Chip loves himself... nor can I blame him. And Giggity Gig, the caption of your owl image contradicts this latest claim of yours. Lara❤Love 06:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude, seriously - you've seen American History X one too many times. ;] Tparameter (talk) 22:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Just kidding with you. ~~But, check Ed Norton out on the movie poster. You look a lot like him in the above pic. ;)~~ Tparameter (talk) 12:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologize

I did not intend to come off as "obsessing" but someone had just levied an ad hominem attack against me and accused me of being a sock puppet for simply expressing an opinion. I am unsure how I can defend myself, but have left a final note on that and shall not leave any more, even if people were to continue to attack me and accuse me of breaking policies (with apparent administrative support). I am not here (meaning that RfA and your talk page) to troll or anything (please see my overall contributions), I was just caught off guard by those accusations and was fairly exasperated. I apologize. There will be no more from me. --Edward Morgan Blake (talk) 05:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand. But you really put the guy on the defensive. Accusations of unprofessionalism, troll-like behavior, your revealing off-wiki conversation, accusing him of attacking, flipping out and being dramatic? I'd say he's stayed pretty cool so far. the_undertow ^talk 05:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)r

Photo Comment/Question on Myspace

Answer it! <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 05:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for delay

Three deadly sins (not often indulged in), Pizza, Coke, & Garlic Bread delayed my reading your issue. My apologies for that delay - my congratulations on remaining calm.--VS ^talk 10:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wow. I totally missed the latest developments. Don't sweat it, sweets. Thanks for handling this for me. You da man, srsly. Lara❤Love 16:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Image:Jake.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Jake.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Jusjih (talk) 03:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

They're trying to keep the man down! :) Jmlk 1 7 05:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems a bit odd in my opinion... Jmlk 1 7 05:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If you upload at Commons, I'll wheel war to keep it alive. Not really...OK, maybe. Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 05:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll be shocked if it gets deleted. And wait intently for every image with a simple name to get tagged. Lara❤Love 05:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

????????????????????

Isn't it, though? lol Doczilla (talk) 06:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the random chuckle in the middle of this nonsense. Doczilla (talk) 06:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Responses to HoserJoe concerns

Responses to your legitimate comments at my talkpage have been left. Further actions have been taken. --VS ^talk 07:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I hated to use your talk page as a forum, especially when you weren't there, but eh, my page is a zoo, why not spread the love, right? the_undertow ^talk 07:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

bump*<3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 07:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No problems - my archives are your archives.--VS ^talk 07:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Please

Zen, please don't post any off-wiki content here. It's a bad idea anyway you look at it. I realize that there is an issue, but please remember that any such post can be altered, so it's not reliable. In addition, it will open up a huge can of worms because it's not actionable and can only cause strife for all involved. the_undertow ^talk 12:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Is what you say true? For instance, as I understand it, any and all relevant information can be used by administrators. It just so happens that it's usually only Wikipedia edits. In the case of something like WP:COI, outside information is critical.

I don't want to dig up any can of worms. Since IRC logs are not actionable, how should I write the posting to WP:ANI? I re-included the post but removed the quote from IRC. Is merely mentioning the IRC discussion okay? ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 12:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Zen, I read the ANI, and I can't comment, seeing as how I try to stay neutral, and since I've talked with you, it would not be so. But having read it, it is not clear if it is an edit dispute (which should stay on the discussion page) or a problem with incivility. Measures for incivility don't apply to 'outside' conversation. I hope you understand why, as anyone can cut-paste a log, with little or no verifiability. If Gurch is pissing you off, you guys need to work it out. If it's an edit conflict, then look for consensus on the article talk page. If neither works, then go back to ANI. This seems like an issue where you disagree on edits, and then the profanity has escalated. I would be happy to mediate as that is probably a better and easier route than making an issue out of it. the_undertow ^talk 12:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Off to work...

So yea, I gotta go, but I noticed something in your contribs that made me smile, but I'm a little confused. Ha, I'm sure you can figure out what I'm talking about. Text me and tell me what happened. Lara❤Love 19:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Show me diffs. I don't do anything off-wiki that I wouldn't do here. You know that. the_undertow ^talk 07:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ha, yea I saw. You missed one, by the way, in your follow up. 3/4 ain't bad, but I'm just sayin'. Lara❤Love 13:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

RfA

Passed, in the end. Can't thank you enough for your help, but I don't believe in spamming around pretty pictures. I guess this is pretty much unprecedented as I've never seen an RfA generate an SSP, CU and an ArbCom case before, but then I'm pretty new on the block. I turned down a job in Anaheim about fifteen years ago- if I hadn't, I'd drive over & buy your beer for a week. No, there's a mess to sort out... where's that darn mop? Again, many thanks. Time for some sleep. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You just call me when it's time to ween of the Effexor dood. It's gonna be hell and I'll be right here to chill with ya. the_undertow ^talk 07:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Tool

Thanks, but I can't be dedicated to Tool unless I post crackpot theories on Tool Navy. Getting on stage was worth it, I couldn't even breathe on the floor during this nonsense. –Pomte 08:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not the video I was expecting. I thought you were claiming to be the do0d that tried to give Maynard a sweet little hug and got put in a headlock and taken forcefully to the floor, sat on and later dry-humped by the man himself. Fun times. Lara❤Love 14:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Igor

Sorry did not expect your name to be trawled by this user but it has with abundant untruth so pointing your attention to this edit. As you will see I had blocked him as he had been warned before by Mattinbgn for similar disruptive edits (he had quickly moved all messages to his archives- after requesting an unblock (since declined)). Obviously he is gaming the system and trying to make our conversation about another thing altogether (ie sinebot getting me) into a story in what appears to be an attempt to disrupt wikipedia. You might also wish to look at the off-wiki link he put up on Jehochman's page which probably shows that his efforts to disrupt are keenly watched by the off-wiki community--VS ^talk 08:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue has been addressed. Per my conversation with Jimbo, we can no longer use reptilian nomenclature during wiki-conversation. With that, I strongly advice you to refrain from such things as:

Draining your lizard
Releasing the anaconda
Chastising the chameleon
Introducing the Iguana
and 'fucking like a frog,' which obviously isn't a reptile, but this is MY talk page, so it pretty much is. the_undertow ^talk 09:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Cheers and understood - no more slapping the snake. Got it!--VS ^talk 09:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I do not think the issue is resolved because VS has a vendictive bone in him and he is not interested in peace! So here goes. Igor Berger (talk) 21:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Did you want to be reblocked? Lara❤Love 21:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
  - This cracks me up - the situation and the comments above. --Veritas (talk) 00:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
    - Now LaraLove why would you want to block me again? I am a nice Troll, even Veritas likes me now..:) Igor Berger (talk) 08:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It is too late to use this?

If you supported my RFA...

Haha. Wow. Talk about delayed response. I like it... for everyone else. But I think my card to you was better. XD Lara❤Love 05:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The whole premise is predicated on the fallout during the delayed response. To give it out immediately would have been presumptuous, and well, come on, that is simply not my style. the_undertow ^talk 05:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hahaha. Good night, sweets. Lara❤Love 06:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Userpage

Blame Gurch for deleting all his shit and making my page look absolutely gaping and ugly. :( Mike H. Fierce! 01:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Like three of his boxes (since the template from the page was originally his). So it comes up as huge gaping red links. Mike H. Fierce! 01:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

RS Noticeboard

Yeah, I find noticeboards useful when I'm about to post a reply and think "Wait...I don't really know what I'm talking about do I?". Cheers, Skomorokh ^confer 02:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thats what makes this place go round :) Tiptoety ^talk 03:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like you lucked out on this one...Skomorokh ^confer 03:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yet not quite enough, according to the Noticeboard ;) Skomorokh ^confer 03:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Ohh........you gonna take that? ;) Tiptoety ^talk 03:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure. The noticeboard agrees that the sources used can only attest to the opinion of the writer and cannot be used as fact. This issue isn't very heated after all. The sources could just have easily been replaced reliable ones - it's not like they are revelations or anything. the_undertow ^talk 03:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Blatant theft

Word up dude? Y'know how everyone is ripping off your "ignore all rules" bar (myself included). There's a contradiction if you ignore the rules, you'd have to ignore the rule that states you ignore the rule. You should change it to "ignore all rules - except this one". Stay cool! Dfrg_msc 00:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

No dood. Ignoring all rules isn't a rule. It's a lifestyle. the_undertow ^talk 00:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

overzealous newbie admins on my tail!

Hi Dude, hope you're online. Check the HIST of my talk page (which should be a redirect to my user page, so it'll take an extra step. Thanks! Ling.Nut (talk) 04:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I fixed this before I saw this message. Note it's also being discussed under ANI which I think is odd, but whatever. --Veritas (talk) 04:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Those two admins have been trying to intimidate me by threatening to go to ANI. I said, go on, do it. Whatever. Ling.Nut (talk) 04:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the best one for the job. I actually protected my talk page once, and had an admin unprotect it twice. The I deleted it, then I was taken to ANI, so I'm not really neutral, because IMO, people have far too much time on their hands if they give a fuck what anyone is doing with their talk page. I really don't care if you redirect it, archive it, undo it, merge it, delete it - none of it matters to me because 1) everything that happened there is still available, and 2) nothing that happened there is probably worth mentioning. the_undertow ^talk 04:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The point is not what's on my talk page; the point is bureacratic instruction creep like kudzu that threatens to make this an inhospitable place for real editors. But thanks anyhow. :-) Later! Ling.Nut (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What admins are on your ass? Igorberger isn't an admin...so who should you be adressing? the_undertow ^talk 06:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent) User:Viridae (an admin) started the whole thing. I also thought Igor was an admin. I don't wanna bother you, though. You've already said you don't wanna wade through this junk. That's OK. 06:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ling.Nut (talk • contribs)

It not that I mind, it's that this is one issue where nobody is going to see me as being neutral, because I'm fine with your redirect. the_undertow ^talk 06:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent) You love colons! I hate them. I wish I didn't have one. Oh... back to the topic... don't worry, and thanks.. and Noli nothis permittere te terere. Ling.Nut (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Every house needs a crocodile or an Igor

To help solve problems..:) Igor Berger (talk) 07:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

However, Igor, one must ask, if you could have simply ignored what Ling did with his talk page, would it have had a greater overall affect? Yes. It would have. There is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit. Nobody is going to deny that you were in the right, but perhaps consider that much time and effort was put into the redirect of one user's talk page, like requesting name change to Igor Berger, which would coincidentally coincide with your signature. the_undertow ^talk 07:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh the crock is a joke..:) I guess maybe we should have left Lin alone he is one of the good guys! But I saw some editors raise an objection to the move so tried to fix it, stirring the kettle. But as soon as I realised he was a good editor I just toned down the deathcon! And name change? If I ever do, it will be Igor The Troll same as my Website http://www,igorthetroll.com you need to pass through the door and go to the blog to see the human side of me. Igor Berger (talk) 07:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude please add me to your next picture. Write Troll on top of my head..:) Igor Berger (talk) 08:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You should create the account for Igor Berger and then tag it as a Doppelganger, in order to prevent impersonation. You can't edit with it, but then no one else will be able to as well. the_undertow ^talk 01:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you think any one is dumb enough to impersonate me? And if they want to try they can just go a head and do it! I would love to sniff them out! But then It is not a bad idea if I ever get blocked for a year like Gohde did I can impersonate myself..:) Just joking, I rather go travel India! But thanks for the tip. Igor Berger (talk) 01:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

A Sock attack

A particularly vicious vandal known as Wikzilla has surfaced again in the form of socks: User:68.244.171.75 and User:68.245.43.252. See:[1] and [2]. Can you do your new admin' 'thin? FWIW Bzuk (talk) 12:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC).

What do you think of my infamous essay

User:Igorberger/Social engineering (Internet) I want to clean it up and take it main space! Igor Berger (talk) 01:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You want to take it to mainspace as an article or as an essay? the_undertow ^talk 01:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

As an essay. Igor Berger (talk) 01:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The idea of social internet engineering is interesting, but you would have to differentiate it from all policies you mention. the_undertow ^talk 01:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

How about adding {{Humornotguideline}} Not too happy with that but if it will fly willing to compromise! Igor Berger (talk) 01:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I got support for the essay from User:Durova. The undertow do you have time to prooread it for me? Igor Berger (talk) 19:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

We got it proofread, and I moved it to main space. So please no WP:SEI or we will have to block you..:) Igor Berger (talk) 05:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice work. But don't you think that by having others help you, and eventually getting it to the mainspace, that you are somehow a victim of social engineering, but are not aware yet? haha. the_undertow ^talk 06:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Should we try for WP:FA I think it is a masterpiece..:) Igor Berger (talk) 06:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Beta tested it works great! Was a surprise to an admin, but think he understand it now! Even put an offical stamp on it..:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Igorberger (talk • contribs) 08:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:SEI is A Samurai sword from Shogun, it has to edges. Guard it and use it well, Igor Berger (talk) 08:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

bauble

The Resist Hivethink Award, for... you know... resisting hivethink. Ling.Nut (talk) 03:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ya know, love....

It might not have affected me this long had it not also put a rift in my personal life. I mean, the BPD most certainly kicked in full force, so it's quite possible that I'd still be fuming over the core issue alone, however, it spawned a much uglier child. So no, I'm not getting off my tangent right now. Lara❤Love 05:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say you were on a tangent. I said anyone who makes you the bad guy, and forgets about the ass-raping pedofucks, has forgotten that pictures are not inherently evil - it is the people that twist them who deserve the blame. I'm sick of people blaming guns and not the shitheads who use them. the_undertow ^talk 06:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You've got a text. Lara❤Love 06:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I fixed my AFD mistakes... rolled it all back. That's a handy tool, everyone should have it. ;) Haha. Ugh, but yea. Avoided some shit there. Good times. This is why I avoid AFD. Not really, but you know what I'm sayin'. I'll try closing properly later... maybe. Haha. Lara❤Love 21:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous

Thought you might like to walk through the facts of this case in your mind: R v Collins. Only in England! --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 16:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You are joking right? You have to know that the U.S. courts are full of these kind of technicalities. So sad... the_undertow ^talk 19:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking more that he had kept his socks on, allegedly a peculiarly English trait. I did get a laugh at some of the links though. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 19:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

HAHA. People can always tell when inlanders (10 miles in from Laguna Beach) are at the beach because we were shoes on the sand. the_undertow ^talk 01:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Teh dramaz

Avoid it. Don't be worried about me, peepz got my back. I've been chillin' in IRC for teh lulz. It's been good teims. Lots-o-support and such. No stress. Gnome stuff or Tool stuff or something. :) Lara❤Love 02:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Haha. Lara❤Love 17:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Logic

Hey, the undertow. I was about to reply to your most recent comment on Ansell's talk, but decided to drop the issue, given Lara's most recent comment. Now I have a tangential comment. :-) I must say, a (somewhat) formal logical discussion is something I have rarely seen on Wikipedia, and something I wish to see more of! I, unfortunately, do not understand your references to causation & David Hume; my training in logic is limited to only a part of Aristotelian logic and a lot of mathematical logic. I now, however, have plans for research. :-) Again, thanks for a nice change in discussion. --Iamunknown 05:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Hume is the opposite of logic. He truly asserts that when you rack a set of billiard balls, and break the rack, that the balls would have scattered REGARDLESS of whether of not you actually hit the cue ball. In essence, you may smash a window with a baseball bat, but that window would have smashed, at that time, regardless of whether you are not you were there. It's nuts, but it's also brilliant because you can never prove him wrong. I assumed you had studied Hume, so I was poking some fun at you during a very rambunctious discussion. Nice of you to engage in philosophical debate - very much more refreshing then throwing around Latin phrases, of which I always HAVE TO LOOK UP, unless it was in Silence of the Lambs. the_undertow ^talk 06:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

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