User talk:The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick

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Welcome!

Hello, The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} after the question on your talk page. Again, welcome!  The Ogre 15:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Name in red

How do you sign your name in red? I want to do the same.VK35 21:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map of the Portuguese Empire

Hello The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick! I haven't forgot our conversation. I'm working on it. Thanks. The Ogre 16:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gibnews

There have been many request for comment on this guy and many disputes, most of them ending when everyone just gives up on gibnews or when he pretends to agree to later change everything back to his liking. He effectively owns the article... Its not worth it getting into a protracted conflict with him. Just make sure that user Fayssal is watching the page and keeps him in line.--Burgas00 18:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map of the Spanish Empire

Hello The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick! I still haven't forgot the whole question regarding the map of the Portuguese Empire, but it will take some time. I'm writing regarding a different issue - the Map of Spanish Empire. There are lots of diverging points of view being discussed in Talk:Spanish Empire#Map. Why don't you came by and tell us what you think? The discussion is about the inclusion of the Portuguese Empire in the territories of the Spanish Empire during the period of the Iberian Union from 1580 to 1640. Thank you! The Ogre 13:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland Flag

The Ulster banne was the flag of the Northern Ireland government used between 1953-72, the flag ceased to be used in any offical capicity when that government was disbanded by the British government in 1973, the only offical flag is the Union Banner.--padraig3uk 14:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not the flag of Northern Ireland, and I don't need concencus to remove false information and POV from articles.--padraig3uk 19:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
You should read the rules of WP, concencus is not require to remove false information and POV, the Ulster banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland and is only used today by Unionist/Loyalists, it cannot even be flown for government building in the north, wishful thinking on the part of one part of the population dosent make it a de-facto flag, when it is rejected by a sizeable minority in a divided community.--padraig3uk 19:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Federal Commonwealth Society

Why did you change the reference in the website section about this organisation on the Commonwealth of Nations article? - (203.211.73.10 23:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Texas?

Howdy parter! Is you from Texas? I had this sort of itching-twitching bug in my stomach to ask ya. You see, when I get a feeling, that it comes slow, and then fast it just gotta be right, right? Well if you is not from Texas I should stick to something else. Another thing that makes me believe so is that there is a bar here called, Reddy Hot of Pat, it think it might be you. If you are from my zone, and know this bar, I think we might have gone to school together. Remember, I was the one that sitted at the back of the class with Mrs. Bolwer. Those were the days, I mighty miss 'em! I really hope ya is from my zone, perhaps one day we could meet up together again? Another thing, will the workload triumph outside the puzzled mixture? MorningRazor

That's a mighty shame partner. For one moment I though it was really Bill, I haven't seen that guy for 20 years or more. Well it was nice to meet such a nice person, in fact, all folks should be like ya! MorningRazor

[edit] Your edit to United Kingdom

Your edit to United Kingdom removed well-sourced and relevant material from the article. Please do not describe my good faith edits as vandalism, and please take more care about what you remove from articles. Thanks, Gwernol 23:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Gwernol here - you state that the information you removed is in a "picture caption" - it plainly isn't; the information is a useful, and well-sourced paragraph under the Economy heading, and you haven't provided any justification for removing it. You've now reverted this information three times, so please discuss on the article's talk page before reverting it again, as per wikipedia policy. Thanks. njan 23:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry Pat Ferrick, but you are wrong, the text you removed was the opening two paragraphs of Economy section, not the caption. Please don't remove it. And please stop accusing me of vandalism. Good faith edits are never vandalism. Please also be aware that if you revert again, you will breach WP:3RR and I will ask another admin to step in. Thanks, Gwernol 23:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I made a mistake. Someone changed the caption and put the closing square brackets in the wrong place. I thought someone had tried to create a mini essay within the photo caption. However, you should have assumed good faith in the first place. You were lightning fast to place a vandalism tag here, when I am not a vandal. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
That's fine, but perhaps you could consider taking your own advice on this, since you continued to put test templates on my talk page after I explained what I was doing and why that I was making good faith edits and you were making a mistake... Gwernol 23:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I got a bit mad there. A case of very crossed wires... me thinking I was improving the article but getting called a vandal by someone who I thought was being vandalistic... etc etc There's a good reason for always assuming good faith :-) The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gibraltar

Sorry to bother you but I notice you are edit-warring on the inclusion of a band there. I was particularly concerned you used the edit summary "revert persistent vandalism". This is quite clearly a content dispute, not vandalism. You both need to take it to talk please. --John 02:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes I saw that and warned him too. Where did you get the idea that two wrongs make a right here? They don't. Please don't do this or anything like it again. --John 16:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Please don't edit-war; I happen to agree with you on the issue but it really isn't worth getting blocked for. --John 01:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I do assume good faith! However, your many consecutive edits with very little attempt at trying to reach concensus - or just ignoring anything you don't agree with - has not left me with a particularly strong impression of good faith. By doing this, it puts you in the wrong rather than anyone else. At no point have I made 3 reverts on the article - you have. As you are clearly so observant as to have picked out my admittance of having poor english on my user page, and you "do not believe that your english is poor", it might interest you to know that "thank you" is two words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biofoundationsoflanguage (talk • contribs)
Amazing that! Maybe I'm slightly forgetful? I notice you've not actually responded to any of the other points I raised. Biofoundationsoflanguage 15:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Remembered that time. Biofoundationsoflanguage 15:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Referencing

Red, well done for adding references to many articles. However, can you please reference the articles properly using the citation method. regards. --Vintagekits 13:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Gibnews

Please don't make the situation worse. Thanks. --John 16:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Falklands Article

Since you seem to have strong views on the matter, I was wondering if you would like to consider finding a reference to support the Argentine view on the use of English names. I have found plenty of references to support how the Islanders view the use of Spanish names but not the converse. I really have tried to find them but not succeeded. The best I can come up with only obliquely refers to it and I don't think it satisfies WP:RS. Let me know what you think thanks. Justin A Kuntz 09:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese Colonies in North America?

Hi. I've discovered a source of 1570 that says that Portugal had a colony in Cape Breton. Take a look at the new thread I created in the Portuguese Empire discussion page. Yes, it is far from being contemporaneous...:P. Greetings,Câmara 22:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You may like to look here

[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abtract (talk • contribs) 01:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish empire map

You say Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Well, I think you may find that we can at least verify that Portugal should be in the map, and it seems you have accepted this notion. If you upload a map with Portugal joined to the rest of Iberia in red, and give me your word to uphold it as you did the last, I'll give you my word to drop the discussion in its entirety and not to push for the inclusion of the other territories once the new map is uploaded. Frankly, this is taking up a lot of my valuable time, and I'm sure the same goes for you. 68.179.176.9 10:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)Edward

Fine two colors, but you have to remove the border with Portugal in your original. Also, the description of the orange territories needs a slight change. It says they were in union with Spain, when in fact (and I have a quote backing this) Spain was that union of crowns under the Hapsburgs. It would be best to say the crown formed part of Spain. Or you could describe it as you did in the discussion, as European territories gained through inheritance. Then I will agree. There still will be the problem you mention, if Portugal is in why not the colonies? Well, you have a simple argument to make, it is original research to conclude that the colonies should be included if Portugal itself is. Or at least that was what you argued with us since those maps were found. 68.179.176.9 13:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Edward

I've been thinking about it more and I take back what I said. It should just be in red. There is nothing in the maps we have found that uses those descriptions. Why should it be that way just because you want it so? Labelling them as such would just raise more questions. There is already a map created that has Portugal in red (not the one I made). So if you'll agree I'll put it up. 68.179.176.9 03:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Edward

If you can find 4 or more maps that have that description we can upload that one instead. For now the simplest version will do, since we have both agreed that just Portugal should be included. 68.179.176.9 13:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Edward

First of all, it shows the Spanish Hapsburgs as a political entity which is synonymous to the Spanish empire. Second, Portugal is half-marked, because it is only after 1580, as it says on the map. And thanks for changing the wording on your map, it makes much more sense now. 68.179.176.9 01:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Edward


Hello, it's been a while but I've made a request for the Spanish empire map on its discussion page (near the bottom). Take a look at it please.

Here is a map of Iberia in 1600 which shows the boundary between Castile and Aragon, and of course Navarre is also there but it is rather small so we might as well leave it out. The distinction between Aragon and Castile is more important.

http://www.euratlas.com/travel_time/europe_south_west_1600.html#%20here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, ~Ed

[edit] British Empire

I dont see why the criticism isnt appropriate in the intro to the British Empire. I cited my facts and you have no right to delete my edits without proper reason. Peace. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations 04:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes it does, that British people cannot stand an inch of criticism about their Empire. So are you telling me that the Jallianwala Bagh massacre (I bet you never heard of that), the Bengal famine, the partition of India never happened ? I dont know about other British colonies but I am sure there are similar incidents. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations 04:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Noticed your recent edit adding "more advanced". Got to be a POV term, surely!Mariya Oktyabrskaya 12:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Reputable and sourced POV. Fine. Accepted. Thanks for your quick reply. Keep up the good work with your mammoth undertaking !!
Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya 12:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Busy

You've been busy, haven't you. Keep up the good work !!Mariya Oktyabrskaya 18:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor issue - money raising.

You: "and its mechanisms of raising money for colonial ventures were well ahead of England or any other nation at the time".
You know about the creative ways the Spanish raised money during the mid- to late 16th Century?
Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya 12:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Bit more to it than that, according to some. Professor Geoffrey Parker, for example, in "Spain and the Netherlands 1559 - 1659", Fontana Press, revised edition 1991, ISBN 0-00-686201-2, pp122-134 (Lepanto (1571): the Costs of Victory), says that the naval engagement that occurred in the Mediterranean in 1571 had no marginal cost to Spain.
Your mechanism does not seem to explain how that could happen.
Prof. Parker also has an interesting chapter in the same book, pp 178-204, (War and Economic Change: the Economic Costs of the Dutch Revolt).
Prof. Parker puts the decline of the Spanish down to trying to fight three wars (plus interventions in France and Portugal, with the Spanish Armada thrown in for good luck) for a very extended period of time, basically bleeding the coffers dry.
Plus, as an aside, I seem to remember that one of the Italian states is credited with inventing Merchant Banking, double-entry bookkeeping, and bookkepping in multiple currencies. Surely a prequisite for a colonial trade/commercial/capitalist empire?
Of course, as I am sure you know, the corporation (as a separate legal identity) was British - the Russia Company (I think that was it's name, without looking it up - something Russia, anyway).
But this is minor.
But don't let me distract you from your opus.
Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya 13:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, Hickson and Turner http://www.qub.ac.uk/mgt/efirg/Corporation.pdf state that the Dutch East India Company copied the concept of the Russia Company.
Back to Prof Parker. p100 "...the Spanish crown was able to draw on a relatively efficient financial system which enabled it to borrow (or "anticipate") the revenues of up to ten years in advance..."
The critical Dutch innovation was not the Stock Exchange at all, but the policy of the Dutch Government (Parker p102)"...which always paid interest and repaid capital on time." The Spanish crown typically paid 7% for loans, the Dutch government 3%. This was the (Parker, p102) "...'Dutch finance'...adopted in England" soon after the crowning of William of Orange.
Same still holds true today - pay your debts, and you can borrow at a relatively cheap rate next time, but default and ....
Parker (p 96) also says that by 1630's, Spain had an army of 300,000 men, more than the Dutch, French, English, Swedish, and Russians combined. The cost of all that, I am sure you will agree, is a much more realistic reason for the subsequent decrease in Spanish power than the reasons you posited.
(The Lepanto wheeze involved getting special permission from the Pope for a tax on clergy, selling "Indulgences", and a tax on the third-richest (yes, really) man in every parish (those three alone more than covered the marginal cost), getting the Venetians to pay more than their fair share, and sending less ships than promised, whilst getting half of the booty from captured vessels at the end.) Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya 00:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

Image:BOT barnstar.jpg The British Overseas Territories Barnstar
I, Biofoundationsoflanguage, hereby award you the British Overseas Territories Barnstar for your contributions to British Empire, United Kingdom, Falkland Islands and colonialism in general.

It's a bit kitsch, but enjoy regardless. Biofoundationsoflanguage 16:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] United Kingdom

I've found multiple sources asserting the UK is a major power with global influence. I've added them to the talk page. Wasn't very hard to find. A pointless edit war if ever there was. -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of List of atrocities

An editor has nominated List of atrocities, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of atrocities and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 14:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

This problem with crufty lists at the bottom of pages happens all the time. Sometimes there are valid reasons for breaking out the lists. But often there is not. I had similar problems with crime against humanity and just deleted the section after stating that I was going to do so on the talk page.[2] Another was Urban warfare: History (note the use of {{examplefarm}} there are others listed under Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup#Lists). More recently I have just hacked out most of Jolly Roger#Other uses after placing a {{refimprove|section|date=November 2007}} template for about a month on the section. I hope this is some use to you in the future :-) --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 15:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish Empire

Hello, Could you please take a look at the change in the map I suggested? Let me know what you think. It's the last message of the second to last topic. Thank you. ~~Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 01:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland

I am Irish and I don't feel its appropriate to group Ireland's situation in with the British empire. This was never done at the time and it's not the way things were, the British/Irish relationship is a totally different thing to the empire.

I have read that Ferguson book, IIRC he also discusses quite a few other non-empire issues though.

Ireland could perhaps be mentioned in the origins of the empire but it really shouldn't be bolded out as its own large sections to such an extent.--Him and a dog 14:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You completely miss the point. My mention of being Irish was purely in responce to your implication that mentioning Ireland there was somehow a Irish POV.

Ireland wasn't part of the British empire,this is a fact that most academics agree with. You're entitled to your oppinion but I'm afraid your opinion does not outweigh academic consensus.--Him and a dog 17:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Those sources of yours that I have seen say nothing of the sort. Often I have seen Ireland referred to as the first colony but this is not a literal term, its just an analogy and a way to prove a point. The only book I've got avaialble here right now is Ferguson's empire and it doesn't call Ireland a part of the empire, it's just briefly discussed in being the prototype for the empire with plantations and part of its downfall with trouble at home.

My main proof isn't secondary sources, its primary ones. Government records of the time quite clearly show Ireland to be held seperate to the empire whether as a full part of the UK or a satelite kingdom.--Him and a dog 12:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] German Empire

Ok, I see what you mean. Sorry for the confusion. Maybe this will warm it up?

- Milk's Favorite Cookie has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Cheers, and Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

[edit] Cleanup templates

Just to let you know that most cleanup templates, like "{{Unreferenced}}", "{{Fact}}" and "{{Cleanup}}" etc., are best not "subst"ed . See WP:SUBST for more details. Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 18:28 11 March 2008 (GMT).

[edit] Chav

Hi there - I see you removed some text from Chav regarding the vowel variation between 'chav' and 'charv'. I feel that the inversion of the vowels is of importance, as 'chav' has Southern roots and 'charv' is very much a North East term; which goes against the isogloss of the [a] - [ɑ]. It has been noted before in some circles that 'charv' couldn't possibly be a North East term (usually from people outside the area) due to the [ɑ] 'BATH' vowel, which is not present in the North East; this was the reason why I added this text. I'm not one for editing wars or anything like that, just wanted to hear your views! Cheers BNC85 (talk) 09:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello. What is your source for this? The source you provided does not make these claims. Besides, the words are spelled differently - the "r" in "charv" changes the pronuciation of the "a". The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Very true in regards to the spelling - hadn't thought of that! The source for the [a] - [ɑ] / North - South isogloss is Wells, JC (1982) Accents of England; but this isogloss is pretty much reproduced in any dialectology / accent phonology textbook. I felt that it was of interest that pointing out that these related terms had reverse vowels; one would expect a 'southern' term to have 'charv' with the BATH vowel and the 'Northern' to have the TRAP vowel of 'chav'. Not the most amazing of observations I admit, but of note since the very slight phonological difference and the same semantic meaning (for example, I wouldn't make a comparision with 'Ned' or 'Scally' to 'chav') BNC85 (talk) 14:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Yup, I don't dispute the [a] - [ɑ] distinction, what I do dispute is your inference that chav/charv is an "unusual" instance of the reversal of this because you are injecting two of your own views there: (1) that this applies to a/ar and (2) that, if it indeed does (which I don't think is true) it is "unusual". You'd need to provide references that make this observation for it not to be original research. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
One of my assignments due in the next few weeks is in regards to 'chav / charv' and its linguistic use in society etc, so I'll try and find some sources etc. I must have confused myself because I don't understand what you mean by 'unusual' and it's application to 'chav/charv' (basically the bit about my own views) My head's a bit frazzled with dissertation work at the mo, so it's probably me! But like I said, I'll have a root around when I'm doing my research and maybe something will be of use! BNC85 (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
You (I presume it was you, from what you say above) had written "What is unusual is that the vowel in charver is ɑ (as in 'far') and the mainstream UK equivalent uses the a (as in 'cat') vowel in chav which goes against the usual North-South (a/ɑ) vowel distinction". ie your argument is as follows: (1) in area A they say "chav" and in area "B" they say "charv" (2) in area A they normally pronounce a long "a" whereas in area "B" they pronounce a short "a" (3) observation 1 is the reverse of observation 2 (4) therefore, this is unusal. However, you are synthesizing your own argument here by assuming that chav/charv is the same as the pronunciation of "bath" (barth/bath), and then injecting your own view by saying that it is unusual. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 16:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish Empire - several maps and always the same issue...

Hello The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick! I just wanted to tell that a similar discussion as the one we are having in Talk:Spanish Empire is occuring in The Commons (don't know if you have an account). It regards the widely used maps of Image:Spanish Empire.png, Image:Imperio español.png and Image:Spanish colonization of the Americas.png. In this discussion I used a lot of your arguments and sources. Some of it is done in Spansih and Portuguese. Your input would be welcome! Thanks. The Ogre (talk) 14:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello Ogre - thanks for your message. When I clicked on "what links here" on each map, nothing of note seems to link to them? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, well, that's because nothing links to them in the English Wikipedia - you have to go to the Commons. Check Spanish colonization of the Americas.png, Imperio español.png and Spanish Empire.png (Spanish Empire(Total Expansion).jpg is also a problem). The main participants in the discussions are myself, Durero, Patstuart and Trasamundo. Please participate! The Ogre (talk) 16:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Maybe missing the point

Where in the MOS text is the "point already succintly made ("not all readers are familiar with all flags"))" Can you point me to the section with an anchor link?Gnevin (talk) 20:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Just following the logic you put down before hand Gnevin (talk) 22:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Not making a point , you said "point already succintly made ("not all readers are familiar with all flags") and just I applied that logic to the other flags .The point is already made In addition, flags can be hard to distinguish when reduced to icon sizenot for use to say which flags a user may find it hard to distinguish Gnevin (talk) 08:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Commons blocking

Hi - apologies for the inconvenience. We have had some stalker vandalism on a range of IPs & blocked them (it is probably the same here as it was cross wiki).

Sorting it - I see you don't have an account (at least in this name) on Commons. I could create the account for you & mail you the password - this might be the best option. Otherwise I can try and arrange a time to briefly unblock the IP to allow you to create an account then re-blocked. I'd prefer not to do that as I am fairly sure the stalker will be watching what is going on (equally our timezones may make that hard)!

Get back to me & let me know what you feel is best (other suggestions may be good) & we will get something done - cheers --Herby talk thyme 12:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced image

[edit] Image Tagging Image:British Empire Anachronous 8.png

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[edit] Dutch Empire

Hello. I saw you changed the Dutch Empire around. Please take a look at this site, it lists all the colonies/trading posts the Dutch ever held. http://www.colonialvoyage.com/ (Red4tribe (talk) 03:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC))

I've suggested a compromise solution on the talk page, which would see a different colour used for temporary military possessions, such as Acadia or Puerto Rico, which the Dutch didn't control for long enough to make them genuinely part of the Dutch Empire proper. Please feel free to share input. Bearcat (talk) 20:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I added a reference for Suriname and you deleted my reference for Indonesia. I have been to Indonesia a few times and if you go to Java(paticulary)you don't have to look that far to find someone who speaks Dutch. My rough estimate is 20% of people 65 and older there speak Dutch somewhat fluent. (Red4tribe (talk) 00:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Suriname languages

Yes. There's a categorization mismatch somewhere (because 24 and 58 don't add up to 87), but that would match my understanding of the situation, and the numbers seem in the right ballpark. There are a number of local languages with a small number of speakers in Suriname, and when people need to speak to people that speak a different local language, Dutch is the language of choice. I remember having to help a woman in Houston airport because people kept thinking she was speaking some kind of Spanish, when actually she only spoke a local Surinam dialect and Dutch.Kww (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I was rounding up to the next decimal it was something like 57.7% so I just put 58%. See? You don't need to question everything I do. (Red4tribe (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC))

Unfortunately your history of contributions, and regular failure to provide sources for your contributions mean that I do. You have led me on more than one wild goose chase, even when you have provided references: they turn out to be nothing to do with the contribution that you claim they support (e.g. Dutch bases in Pakistan and China). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 00:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I showed you they had trading posts there. Maybe not 100% correct but it's closer than them not being there at all. (Red4tribe (talk) 00:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC))
Erm, did you read what I replied to you on Pakistan? The "reference" that you provided discussed a fort in Indonesia. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 00:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm talking about the archive. It was there. Anyways please look at my reference. It is the Dutch Taalunie, which is the official regulator for the Dutch language. If you don't trust me on this either go ask someone else again. Feel free to re-word what I wrote if you think it is poorly written.(Red4tribe (talk) 00:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC))

There are 238 million people in Indonesia, and 2000 youngsters study it? That hardly constitutes interest by the young people. What was the study done by the writer to determine interest? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


2000 study it in 1 city. That seems like quite a bit for a language that is only official in 3 countries. (Red4tribe (talk) 01:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC))

That is 0.0008% of the population. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
You cannot copy and paste from websites because you are violating copyright by doing so. And language such as "even the younger generation is interested in the language" is not encyclopaedic, or backed up with any sort of objective evidence for such a claim. If the evidence is 2000 students studying it a year, again, that is an insignificant fraction of the youth of Indonesia. There are probably more students of Dutch than that in the UK, but that is not evidence of a Dutch legacy. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Language speaking groups in Indonesia - it is a generational thing - older and dying generation of indonesians have dutch still - but I would not under any circumstance believe any printed source even from foreign researchers on this matter - but thats from my personal research work in java in the mid 90's - to get a gross figure of speakers from any source is folly - and really in the end hypothetical - if you want a long and complicated reasoning to this - just ask - cheers SatuSuro 01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Anomolies - where some might study it is because up until recently all law students wishing to get a degree needed to have dutch to be able to utilise the colonial era materials - that is the likely explanation for learners but if the indication of non native english speaking in java- it would not constitute a group of individuals who could actually speak dutch - it would be more likely law students wh make as much a mess of english when they get their ways around it - non native english in indonesia is an experience to behld and savour - more colourful than singlish (sic) SatuSuro 01:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


It would actually be .02% and out of the 20,000 college students that would be 10%. (Red4tribe (talk) 01:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC))

You gotta be kidding you actually believe the stats? bah Do you know anything about Indonesia at all? I would say you are playing with misinformation at the best SatuSuro 01:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


You are playing with numbers there. Compare Indonesia to the countries colonised by other European powers: Brazil by Portugal, the rest of Latin America by Spain, USA, Canada, New Zealand, India, Australia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Kenya etc by England, Morocco, Algeria, Niger, Mali etc by France: compare how many people speak the language of the colonising power today and then look at Indonesia. Can you explain why, even though the Dutch were in Indonesia for as long as the English were in India, and until roughly the same time, there is a such a difference in the number of speakers of the language? Any wording that suggests Dutch is a serious language in Indonesia is misleading in the extreme. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


To write in the article you are both looking at to type in that Dutch actually modified the grammar of Indonesian suggest no knowledge of the language at all SatuSuro 01:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Reversion of my comments at his talk page and arguing from a very dubious source and odd anecdotal information suggest that I will probably take this to the Indonesian project noticeboard in time rather than user talk pages - please excuse my enthusiasm for this but the Indonesian project commonly has to cope with such misinformation. cheers SatuSuro 01:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

No excuse needed! I also recommend you open up the discussion as widely as possible. The empire articles are also the target of a lot of misinformation too. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your understanding - its odd the strange agendas we have to cope with at the Indonesian project - this is yet another we have to keep tabs on - cheers SatuSuro 02:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch Acadie

You complain about the name, so I change it, then you change it back to the name you didn't like. (Red4tribe (talk) 03:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Disputed Tag

I didn't remove it, I really don't understand why you think I removed it (Red4tribe (talk) 13:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC))


[edit] A number of Problems

I added references, but do I really need to prove to you that Dutch is spoken in Suriname, Belgium and the Netherlands? What about South africa? Do I really need to prove to you they speak Afrikaans there? Indonesia? They aren't self published websites.

[edit] Dodgy dude reply

Yeah, I see on his talk page that you've got more wrinkled brows from this guy then I have. What pains me is that unreasonable individuals don't listen to reason. All we can do is keep our heads up. Tourskin (talk) 00:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lets See

Lets see what others think (Red4tribe (talk) 02:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC))

Did you know my signature is the default signature? (Red4tribe (talk) 11:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Why?

Why? (SaudiArabia44 (talk) 02:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Gibraltar part deux

As we have finally found some common ground, can I suggest you take a look at This where someone has renamed that event and all the elections to something I consider horribly wrong. You too know the difference between Gibraltar and Gibraltarian and as another persistent PITA may find it a challenge to get it right - the other guy is not listening and says he is 'an English teacher and knows best'.

Unlike the argument over currency, where notes are copyright the official documents are public domain.

http://www.gibnet.com/texts/ref2002g.pdf


--Gibnews (talk) 09:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italy

Every time I attempt to discuss things you become exceptionally rude so I have little interest in starting a disscussion with you anywhere other than the history page. (Red4tribe (talk) 21:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] AN3

If you're dealing with a difficult editor who's resorting to abusing multiple accounts in the future, please don't edit war with them. Instead, seek outside, uninvolved assistance with communication on the talkpage, if that's ignored, try a neutral post to a relevant noticeboard. I was || this close to blocking you, but the person you've been edit warring with is behaving much worse. east.718 at 03:19, May 14, 2008

If problems like that are long-term, we deal with the problem by removing the guilty party from the encyclopedia. ^_^ Seriously though, most administrators are pretty clueful and can spot behavior like this pretty transparently. Just find one or several for assistance if you're really at the end of your rope. east.718 at 20:40, May 14, 2008

[edit] Red4tribe

Hey – I’ve had a few discussions with Red4tribe over at Indonesian National Revolution, and now left a polite note at his talk page. I think we need to back off while he’s blocked. Wikipedia needs passionate editors and they are hard to come by, but we need to first try to coax any wayward habits into shape first, before we crack down on them. So, let’s give him a chance. I know you’ve had your frustrations with him regarding sources for example; your concerns seem well-justified and your patience excellence. We all need to be mindful of WP:CIVIL – it’s not there to be all lovey-dovey, but it’s there to protect and foster a collaborative atmosphere, and not let it descend into combat. Thanks for you patience – let’s see how we respond if we can be a bit more gentle. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t – but let’s give him a chance and not try and make him fail.

I’ll leave another note for him, just to provide emphasis. Your work on the Dutch Empire article continues to be excellent. Regards --Merbabu (talk) 03:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


20 May

Hello there. There has been some odd activity over at Dutch East Indies. Ie, the addition of the infobox – although I don’t like this addition, that’s another issue. What is puzzling me is the contribs of this anon – he says he is Red4tribe(!?!). Now, that seems a little - um – dumb to admit it openly if one is blocked. I noticed that you reverted this anon on a American Empire map. Should we do a check user? Regards --Merbabu (talk) 02:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ???

Sorry, but i don't understand why you moved the content of Italian Empire to Italian Colonial Empire. There was no consensus on it and also, that's not the way to move an article. Now all the history to the article is split into two articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Udonknome (talk • contribs)

Hello. Whilst I may have messed up with the move (but relatively easily fixable, it seems), I don't apologise for my WP:BOLD editing, one does not need consensus to be bold. The article in its prior state was an absolute mess [3] of unsourced and often duplicated material. It is now [4] at least on its way to being a proper, sourced, article on Italian colonialism, to complement that on the British Empire, Portuguese Empire, Dutch Empire and Spanish Empire. Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be suggesting more than a history merge: you seem to be suggesting [5] that my edits should be reverted. As someone who is primarily concerned in improving the European empire articles series, I'd be interested to know why you feel that would be justified. I recently took an axe to the Dutch Empire article too, and took the article from this abomination [6] to, with the help of some other like minded editors, this respectable state [7]. As for why the move, Mussolini declared the "Italian Empire" in 1936. As Italy had colonies for fifty years prior, the article really needed a name that reflected that. Anyway, please read the new state of the article before jumping to any conclusions! The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
No no no no...your edits wont be reverted. only that the histories of the two pages will be ultimately merged together, so that the edit listings wont be lost. If I wanted to revert your edits, I could've simply done a mega-rollback, which is of course not of my intention Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 02:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


OK. So I rectified my move by doing the following. What existed at Italian Empire was moved, pre-my-edits, to Evolution of the Italian Empire. The Italian Colonial Empire article now contains my edits, which are basically a new article. At least that way the histories are preserved better. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh my, what have you done???? No offense, but by adding another articles to this mix you managed to make the situation worse. First, do not ever remove a tag like the one I put in the article. That's almost vandalism, and I had to revert it. I'd really suggest you stop editing these articles until I can get a hold of administrators to fix this. --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 02:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but what gives you the right to arbitrate in this way? And how dare you accuse me of "almost vandalism". You know perfectly well my intentions are good. I demand an apology. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Given that I was the only person to edit the article since the move, and given that I had essentially rewritten most of the article, my solution was a far better one than the one you have now left on the plate. You seem to be a bit trigger happy - this is the second time that you have reverted without thinking - the first being to do with the map which you failed to spot had been changed. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
What does that the map incident have to do with this? At first, I never reverted that, I just said I couldn't see the difference and warmly apologized after you corrected me! --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 03:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Did I ever say it was vandalism? I said it was almost vandalism, meaning that someone might misunderstand them as so. I also reverted your edits as good faith ones so...? The only thing I may be sorry for is if I didn't express myself clearly as i could've had. --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 02:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If "almost" murdering someone is attempted murder, what is "almost" vandalising a Wikipedia article? Please choose your words more carefully in future. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
What now?????? I think you are taking this 'almost' thing too far out of contest and losing focus on the real issue --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 03:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm just letting you know. Anyway, I think your proposed history merge will be more trouble than it is worth. I had left things in a state where the histories of the two articles were perfectly preserved, as though I had effectively created a brand new article, Italian Colonial Empire. No edits had been made to what was Italian Empire since I began my work this weekend. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, although I can understand what you mean, Wikipedia:MM#How_to_rename_a_page says :Do not move or rename a page by copying/pasting its content, because doing so destroys the edit history. (The GFDL requires acknowledgement of all contributors, and editors continue to hold copyright on their contributions unless they specifically give up this right. Hence it is required that edit histories be preserved for all major contributions until the normal copyright expires.) See? --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 03:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but my latest proposal did not involving moving or renaming a page by copying/pasting its content, did it, because I reverted the redirect at Italian Empire, and then moved the page using the standard move approach to Evolution of the Italian Empire, thereby preserving the edit history. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Look, edit history of ex-Italian Empire article fully preserved: [8] Edit history of new Italian Colonial Empire fully preserved: [9] Please explain to me what is wrong with that state of affairs? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, though that pattern of edits was an extremely complex one, I guess it's all savable. Now the only thing that's left is what to do with the two articles, and my suggestion would be to propose the articles for merge, since they are extremely similar. Then we may discuss the title of Italian Colonial Empire (way later though), which I still don't understand. Agree? --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 03:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
My experience of empire articles is that you need two: one for the chronological overview (British Empire), one as an outlet for editors that like to list every single territory ever held (Evolution of the British Empire). In terms of Italian Empire vs Italian Colonial Empire, as I said before, given that Mussolini officially declared the existence of the "Italian Empire" a full fifty years after Italy started acquiring colonies, it is not an appropriate name for the full history of Italian colonialism. But this is all stuff that we can discuss on the talk page of the article. Again though, I do not apologise for not seeking consensus on that first. Given the very poor quality of the Italian Empire article, it is clear that noone had actually read it top to bottom. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Can I be of any help, perhaps? I haven't read much any of this section, but am interested in helping. Basketball110 My story/Tell me yours at 04:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the situation has been fixed. Thanks anyways!! :) Do you know me? I can't tell you to shut up...so just SCREEEAAMM!!! You can still shut up if you want to, just don't blame me 22:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Mare Nostrum

I proposed the deletion of Italian Mare Nostrum. [10] --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I see I’ve been overtaken by events on this; I've posted at the AfD page now. In the meantime, I noticed that your Mare Nostrum page doesn't have anything in the Fascist usage section; is it worth copying some of this pages "MN of Mussolini" section? Say the 2nd and 4th paragraphs? they seem to cover it. What do you reckon? Xyl 54 (talk) 15:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sourced

The map is sourced. from the following pages. pg 36-37. Pg 69. Atlas of WWIII by John Keegan. You can see that if you click on the map. Red4tribe (talk) 18:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)