Talk:Theresa, Countess of Portugal

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[edit] Was Theresa, Countess of Portugal a decadent of prophet Muhammad

Acording to this site this is true... I wonder if there is anyone here whom has knowledge about this. Acidburn24m 21:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

No, she wasn't. Bishop Pelayo, writing during Teresa's lifetime, explicitly calls her daughter of noblewoman Jimena Muñoz (Alfonso's other mistress), and this is universally accepted by scholars. Agricolae 04:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

As I said in Talk:Afonso I of Portugal:Hello Acidburn24m! Well... everyone in Europe and many of the Americans (in all of the Americas) are most probably descendents of prophet Muhammad... and of everyone at that time that reproduced sucessfully (let's say... had granchildren!) - see Last universal ancestor, Last Common Ancestor, Most recent common ancestor, Descent from antiquity, etc... Now, regarding the site you cite - they are wrong! Not in saying that Afonso I is a descendent of Muhammad - I believe he is and even remender seeing the present pretender to the Portuguese throne (Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza) stating that in several occasions (I'll try to find a source and more info on that). But the genealogy presented is wrong - first of all let me tell you that early Islamic genealogy does represent some problems, secondly Afonso's mother, Theresa, Countess of Portugal, was not the daughter of a Zaida (Isabella), Princess of Denia, as that site say, but of Ximena Moniz or Jimena Muñoz, daughter of Munio Moniz, Count of Bierzo and Muniadona Moniz. So... the lineage presented does not hold! I'll try to get back on this. See you soon. The Ogre 15:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Teresa's mother

Hello Agricolae! I see you have reverted my inclusion of Teresa's mother's parents (Munio Moniz, Count of Bierzo and Muniadona Moniz), saying that that they're still "still very much in dispute". Could you tell wahat the dispute is? You see, Genea Portugal, presents her, Ximena Moniz, as such, giving the following sources:

• Actas do 17º Congresso Internacional de Ciências Genealógica e Heráldica, Instituto Português de Heráldica, Lisboa, 1986, Tábua III, p.317.
• Luiz de Mello Vaz de São Payo, A Herança Genética de D. Afonso Henriques, Universidade Moderna, 1ª Edição, Porto, 2002, p.283.
• Felgueiras Gayo & Carvalhos de Basto, Nobiliário das Famílias de Portugal, 2ª Edição, Braga, 1989, vol. VI, p.51.

Could you enlight me? Thanks! The Ogre 15:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

That Teresa was daughter of a Munio Munoz comes originally from the interpretation of some charters in which she appears with a man of this name, reported by:

Quintana Prieto, Augusto. Jimena Muñiz, madre de Doña Teresa de Portugal. Revista Portuguesa de Historia. 12:223-80 (1969).

There are two problems with this interpretation. First, she is said by Bishopp Pelayo to be of a "most noble family", and this Munio Muñoz is rather obscure. More importantly, these don't say she was daughter, she just appears in the same document, so she could have been sister or even more distantly related (and if this Munio Muñoz really is the husband of Muniadona Muñoz, Jimena could he sister of her instead).

Canal Sanchez-Pagin, Jose Maria. Jimena Muñoz, Amiga de Alfonso VI. Anuario de Estudios Medievales. 21:11-40 (1991).

Looks for a family that might be called "most noble" and concludes that Jimena was probably sister of Count Rodrigo Muñoz, who was one of the most prominent nobleman of the first part of the reign of Alfonso VI, and father-in-law of Count Gomez Gonzalez (favorite of Queen Urraca). He then evaluates the possibilities for the parentage of this Count, there being three Munios of appropriate age and status who could be father: Munio Muñoz, Munio Gonzalez and Munio Rodriguez. He excludes Munio Muñoz, because of chronology and the existence of documents that appear to name all of the children, Jimena and Rodrigo not being among them. He excludes Munio Rodriguez because his son Rodrigo is given a biography that seems at odds with Alfonso's count. He then decides on Munio Gonzalez, who he also links to the Lara and the old Counts of Castile. In this he is followed by one of your source's references:

Vajay, Szabolcs de. Structures de Prouvoir et Reseaux de Familles du VIIIe au XIIe Siecles. Genealogica & Heraldica: Actas de 17o Congresso das Ciencias Genealogica e Heraldica. 275-315 (1986).

Which shows Jimena as daughter of Munio Gonzalez and sister of a Munio Muñoz distinct from the count. Later, though, Canal changed his mind. In a recent article on Gomez Gonzalez, he concludes that Rodrigo Muñoz (and hence Jimena, although he doesn't mention her specifically) was child of count Munio Rodriguez, and cites an earlier work by Jaime de Salazar y Acha, which I have been unable to get hold of, but which deals with Alfonso's various wives and mistresses:

Canal Sanchez-Pagin, Jose Maria. El conde Gómez González de Candespina: Su historia y su familia. Anuario de Estudios Medievales. 36: 37-?? (2006)

Salazar y Acha, Jaime de, Contribución al estudio del reinado de Alfonso VI de Castilla: algunas aclaraciones sobre su política matrimonial. Anales de la Real Academia Matritense de Heráldica y Genealogía, Nº. 2, 1992‑1993 , pags. 299-336

Thus we have three alternative fathers published within the last two decades: Munio Munoz, Munio Gonzalez and Munio Rodriguez. Given this disagreement, to maintain NPOV we need to provide a full discussion, or not name a single option. However, the issue is not directly relevant to Teresa, so I think it better to leave it off here, a detailed discussion being more appropriate for a page on Jimena herself (although I would be hesitant to provide a summary without seeing the Salazar Acha material. Agricolae 20:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)