Talk:Theremin

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To-do list for Theremin: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Expand the "How it Works" to be more useful
  • Expand section on Moog in "History"
  • Add "Tin Hat Quartet" band to "The theremin in use", song is called "Tin Hat Trio - O.N.E.O."
  • Settle apparent Ondes Martenot/Loulie Jean Norman Star Trek contradictions
  • Add Lucie Rosen as early thereminist and financial supporter of Leon, related Caramoor history
  • Describe Theremin's connections and work with KGB using tuned circuits, etc
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Please see Wikipedia:Requested recordings for more on this request.




Contents

[edit] Beatles

Just out of interest, which Beatles record has a Theremin?

None of them, according to http://www.phish.net/faq/btheremin.html I'm getting seriously out of touch - who the hell are Phish?

I'll remove Beatles... Phish are a "Jam Band", spiritual descendent of The Grateful Dead

[edit] Mixup with invention dates

In the first paragraph it says that the theremin was invented in 1919. Later on in the article it says that it was invented in 1918. Which one is it?

I've read in Russian sources that the correct date is 1920. Paranoid 14:05, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Grove dictionary gives 1920 as the date of the first demonstration.

According to Glinsky (2000), the invention occurred somewhere between "early in 1920" (p. 23) and his demonstration of it to Abram Ioffe in October of 1920 (p. 26) Porphyrous 17:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Article Electronic musical instrument gives 1917.
—DIV (128.250.204.118 02:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC))

The "Harvard Dictionary of Music" says it was "invented about 1924"... 142.162.130.163 (talk) 00:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other inconsistencies

There are inconsistencies between Theremin and Leon Theremin articles, particularly regarding Leon's return to Soviet Union and his work in sharashka. These versions need to be reconciled. Paranoid 14:05, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I added Glinsky's version of Theremin's departure as alternate information, that Theremin fled the US willingly to avoid his considerable debts. (Glinsky, 2000, p. 185-192) Porphyrous 17:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


"The Theremin was the basis from which all twentieth-century electronic music was developed." - An outrageous claim. Evidence, please??

--> Robert A. Moog, the inventor of the sinthesyser, started building theremins at his garage when He was a teenager... he did it for 51 years. Evidence enough of the influence.

I think to claim that Moog was the inventor of the synthesizer is pushing it a bit. He wasn't even alive when the Dynamophone, Theremin, Spharophon, Dynaphone, Ondes Martenot and Trautonium were invented. Yes he invented the voltage-controlled oscillator but even that was already worked by Harald Bode, inventor of the Melochord. Just a suggestion, why don't you do some research before passing stuff of as truth. (Kelcey)

There was at least one very famous instrument in use actually called a "synthesizer" long before Moog invented voltage-controlled synthesis, and that, of course, was the RCA Synthesizer favored by Milton Babbitt and others. My impression is that the Ondes Martinot was developed independently of the Theremin and that Martinot had no knowledge of the Theremin while he was developing the Ondes Martinot. The Ondes Martinot was popular with French composers. You can hear it on Brian Ferry's "As Time Goes By" record (and on many other recordings as well, probably, but that happens to be one in my record collection). --Scotch

[edit] Phonetics?

"The theremin or thereminvox (originally pronounced /tay-ray-meen/ but often anglicized as /there-uh-min/) ..."

What on earth is this system of transcription? I've never seen it before, but it seems somewhat official, with its slashes. Whatever it is (if it is anything at all), it should be specified. I tried reading it as IPA, but hit rather a sticking point almost immediately. Anyone? - Vague | Rant 08:45, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what it is, but the system seems pretty clear to me (western American). The problem with IPA is that it is inscrutable for someone who hasn't been trained in it. That makes it effectively an independent language complete with its own character set— which is fine for the specialist (because it is unambiguous) but not for the average English speaker. I wonder why the "dictionary English" long and short vowel marks and syllabic accent marks (for example) do not seem to be available on Wikipedia? --Blainster 01:54, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I've converted them into IPA following Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation). I'm not sure what language "tay-ray-meen" was meant to be representing, but I assumed it was a representation of the French thérémine. If it should be pronounced as English, [teɪɹeɪmiːn] might be better. --bjh21 16:55, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

The conversion to "IPA" makes it unscrutable for me at least, and it looks very strange. --Scotch

[edit] unique

I read the first paragraph as "[As a musical instrument] the theremin is unique in that it requires no physical contact in order to produce music and was, in fact, the first musical instrument designed to be played without being touched." If it is truely unique, then it goes without saying that it was the first.

--> Forget the D-Beam or the E-Bow? --> Get over yourself, unique is unique by definition, there are no degrees of uniqueness, not even " truely" unique. Correctly- ... if it is, in fact, unique...

[edit] Some musicians who have used the theremin

Am I out of line by suggesting that this section is getting a little out of hand? Perhaps rather than being notable musicians who have used a theremin it should be musicians who have used a theremin in a notable fashion. That would cut a lot of the questionable personnel from said list. The long of the short of it is that a lot of musicians have used a theremin at some point or another. Just because a few freakish theremin wails appear on one song from one album doesn't seem, to me, like a valid criterion to put a musician this list. Compare this article with guitar or piano. Personally, I'm in favor of removing the entire section. Comments? -- Krash 00:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Hearty agreement here. If we can get it down to a handful, fine. Otherwise dump the whole list. --Blainster 02:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Good deal. I just cut the whole section. I think anyone worthy of mention is listed above in the In popular music section. If anyone sees the need for this list, let's use this talk page to weed out an appropriate handful.
Maybe I'll next take it upon myself to clean up the link repository...
-- Krash 14:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I find it sort of sad that this list has been removed, as I'm really quite interested in hearing (even brief) examples of bands utilizing the Theremin... especially great artists like Add N to (x), the flaming lips, edward ka-spel/the legendary pink dots, and the polyphonic spree. Now that I think about it, it seems to me that many of these artists have used the instrument in a significant way... If I recall, the last track on The Polyphonic Spree's debut album contained a 30+ minute long noise/drone/music track which was probably mostly theremin. I've no doubt in my mind that much of the stuff done by Edward Ka-Spel contains theremin, but it must blend in well with his semi-creepy musical aura. I think this is just another example of a fine section for an "expanded" version of a wikipedia article. Is it really a consensus that this information doesn't belong in the article or somewhere on wikipedia? Many of these artists seem to me to serve as good examples of what a theremin might add to contemporary experimental and pop music as an atmospheric (rather than the center of the musical piece). Jxn 06:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
As for the The Polyphonic Spree - the track you mention is based on vocal samples; nevertheless - the band _has_a_thereminist_as_a_regular_member_ - I can't see what could possibly be more significant. (Well, theremin solos, I guess...)
I agree with scratching the one-time and unconfirmed uses (the notable ones, like the Beach Boys, are already in the "popular music" section anyway) - but there's still going to be enough artists to fill (and justify) the list (some of them were not even there, like The Avalanches). Squeal 20:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, so I was probably out of line undoing an undo of a friends change to this article regarding theremin used in a song. I think the theremin is a novel enough instrument that it's useful to keep track of where it's been used, but the list is a growing one and doesn't belong in the main article. Has anyone considered creating separate articles tracking theremin use in singles and bands that include theremin in their lineup? --mkiwala 05:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed material

Pato Fu has something worth mention in this article: their video for that song tells the story of Léon Theremin's abduction by the KGB. [1] -- Stormwatch (talk) 19:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nomenclature and other business

Okay...what's the dude's name. Because I've always thought it was Léon. The bulk of the literature that I have on hand calls him Léon ad nauseam. Even though it was his birth name, to call him "Lev" just seem neologistic. I'm going to change the article to reflect this.

I just pulled off mentions of Bill Bailey, Goldfrapp, and Mentok the Mindtaker per my sentiments from September expressed in the section above.

I don't know about the others, but Goldfrapp I'm putting back. (I figure she's _the_ most famous comtemporary user of the instrument, at least here in Europe...) Squeal 21:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, Jimmy Page is a lot of things but he is not a theremin virtuoso. -- Krash 01:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sample?

It would be great to have a few .ogg files to give us an idea of what the heck this thing actually sounds like ... Ppe42 03:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merger with Electro-Theremin

Merging would make this article too long. — Shadowhillway 05:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Electro-Theremin is different instrument. Similar to Ondes Martenot. Do not merge them. Aum.en 10:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

And now 3 editors disagree with the proposed merger. I'm going to remove the tags. -- Krash (Talk) 13:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Theremin Enthusiasts Club International" link

Anonymous user 209.139.215.129 asked on my talk page why I deleted the link to "Theremin Enthusiasts Club International". My answer here: after browsing the site, I concluded that the site is not the type or quality of site that should be linked from this encyclopedia article. Request comment and consensus from other editors. — Shadowhillway 00:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Easily reproduced

I don't agree with this statement:

Even though theremin sounds can be reproduced easily on modern-day synthesizers, many musicians continue to appreciate the novelty and uniqueness of using an actual theremin.

The 'sound' of the theremin itself is usually something resmebling a modified sine wave, which is easy to emulate. Emulating the performance of the instrument, however, is a different matter entirely. 'Modern-day synthesizers' use discreet notes on a keyboard, and even with pressure-sensitive XY touchpads such as on the Korg Z1 or the ribbon controllers on the Kurzweil K2500 and up, an emulation of a theremin performance on anything other than a theremin is poor at best. I'm going to rephrase this. If there are any objections, I'd like to hear them. --Overand 02:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I never liked that statement because it is not demonstrative of a full appreciation of the instrument. Please do rephrase. Sounds approximating a theremin timbre can be synthesized on contemporary equipment, but a faithful software emulation of all the characteristics of a theremin would be much more involved. — Shadowhillway 02:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I concur. "can be approximated" or "can be simulated" would be better. No synthesizer can reproduce the microtonal qualities of the instrument. Porphyrous 17:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Star Trek theme: Theremin or Ondes Martenot?

The Ondes Martenot article claims that that instrument was used in the theme. This needs to be researched. Ibadibam 22:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC) The article on the theme itself lists a vocalist. I seem to recall hearing that different seasons had different versions. Ibadibam 00:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, http://www.retrothing.com/2006/06/theremin_ghostl.html has a comment apparently by a thereminist who says a singer was imitating the theremin in the "Star Trek" theme. The article on the original theme song the theme itself currently says the theremin was used. http://www.tv.com/star-trek/spocks-brain/episode/24939/summary.html says that there is a female soprano AND theremin, starting with the Spock's Brain episode. Confusing indeed. Goulo 12:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


Lengthy discussions on the Levnet e-mail list have uncovered suggestions that only one of the recorded versions of the theme song contained theremin, but that it was never used with any actual episode beyond possibly the original pilot "The Cage". Porphyrous 17:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It is probably worth including this in the main article simply due to the fact that a meme is making its way around the internet in which it is asserted that original Star Trek Theme was played using a theremin. 24.3.142.198 18:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doctor Who TV programme

Good day chaps. Over on this side of the pond, i might be so bold as so suggest that the most popularly-known use of the theremin over here is in the theme to Doctor Who. Perhaps it should be added to the TV programmes section. --Glastonbridge 19:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Funny, I thought that very thing on reading this article for the first time today. (And I'm on the "left" side of the pond!) I'll be bolder and add the reference -YorkBW 22:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've been educated, and I take back my boldness. Several resources on the web (such as http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mark_Ayres/DWTheme.htm) claim there's no theremin in the Doctor Who theme! -YorkBW 22:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no theremin - the entire theme was concocted by putting together samples of tones that were re-recorded at different speeds to produce each of the required notes, which were then spliced to get the right length of sound. In effect, just about all the notes were hand-crafted in this way by Delia Derbyshire. It was the subject of a documentary that has been screened as part of different "Doctor Who Night"s on BBC TWO -AlanJenney 22:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] La Niña Santa

The theremin is also a recurring theme in the 2004 movie La Niña Santa, but it seems unuseful to me to add this trivia info when there is no page about this movie yet.


Hi. If someone could put up a reference to the fact that theremin was mentioned during a game of scrabble by Alan Alda in an episode of the sitcom MASH, just as a sidenote, it would be great.

[edit] Marriage

He married while in New York, and this was an interracial marriage (he married an african-american woman.) This caused interesting reactions from people here in the states. When he was kidnapped, he was kidnapped away from his own wife, and I believe she never learned what happened to him. This was all well covered in the documentary of a few years ago. Some synopsis of his marriage and all of these events would be good to flesh out this article and add perspective and humanity, I think... but I don't have a copy of the documentary so I can't do it accurately.

Well researched and accurate info about Theremin's personal life can be found in the book by Albert Glinsky -- Theremin Etherwaves and Espionage. It seems Theremin wasn't kidnapped but fled the US of his own free will, and there are other pertinent facts abut his life in the Soviet Union.

According to his grandniece, Lydia Kavina, he was not kidnapped, but talked into returning to the Soviet Union by KGB agents. --megA 13:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modifications made 14 September 2006

Well, without really knowing what I was doing, I dove in and began rewriting big chunks of this article based on my knowledge of the topic. I discovered later the discussions on the article. Ignorance is not an excuse for any rules I may have violated, but I hope you will forgive any rashness on my part. Here is a summary of modifications:


  • Moved link to demonstration by Armen Ra to Overview
  • Added reference to Glinsky's account of Theremin's departure to History
  • Reworked Moog section to emphasize that interest in the theremin mostly revolved around electronics hobbyists up to and around the time of Moog's work. No modification of information, just rearranging.
  • Added reference to current manufacturers of the instrument in addition to Moog Music.
  • Added the section on Technique, based on multiple sources and discussions on Levnet. This section needs more firm citations to bring it up to Wiki standards, but the information is sound. The Rockmore quote is from the e-book "The Rockmore Technique", but I am working on verifying its authenticity. But she also mentions this in the "Gift Tape" interview recorded by Reid Welch.
  • Reorganized the "Theremin in Use" section to clearly distinguish between ongoing classical, jazz, and avantgarde applications ("art music") and the popular music section. Moved references to Kavina, Kurstin, Ward-Fernandez, and Project: Pimento to this section, and added references to Buchholz, Eyck, Armen Ra, Ross, Pringle, Takeuchi, Ii, and Hoffmann. I mentioned Hoffmann here rather than in the films section to group him with other thereminists.
  • Removed the agregious reference to Kirstie Korth, who is totally unknown in the theremin community and not an authority on theremin composition. The Wiki article on her is in dispute anyway.
  • Reworded Beach Boys reference to emphasize the myth status of the "Good Vibrations" story. Unfortunately, Wilson reinforced this myth himself in the Martin documentary (1994) (due to his mental health, Wilson is not considered an authoritative source on this topic), though it is described accurately in the Glinsky book (2000).
  • Added "in some versions of" to the Star Trek theme reference to make it at least a tad more accurate, but it still needs sources
  • Added a reference to the terpsitone under "Related instruments", described in detail in the Glinsky book and also mentioned on Ms. Kavina's web site.
  • Added an external link to Spellbound, a brief program of music for theremin, a webcast/podcast music program I produce. Please let me know if this is not appropriate.


Here are some things I did not change but need changing:

  • I'm not sure of the value of the list of modern bands that have used the instrument. The band database at thereminworld.com contains over 750 references to artists using the instrument. Very few well-known artists really use the instrument enough to be mentioned. I can provide a verifiable list of modern artists, most of whom are not very famous, who use the instrument routinely, if you wish.
  • The section on film use could use reworking. Some should probably be moved to history, some to the "art music" section of "Theremin in Use". Some references are apocryphal: the theremin was *not* used in Forbidden Planet (according to public apperances by Louis and Bebe Barron), and its use in Mars Attacks is disputed; in spite of the fact that Tim Burton asserted in interviews it was used, it was not used according to people who participated in the recording of the soundtrack. It was verifiably used in the soundtrack to Monster House (performed by Charlie Lester), so that reference is safe to add.
  • It's already noted that the TV section needs reworking. Its use in "Dark Shadows" is in dispute, and most likely false, although one song (not the theme) featuring the theremin does appear on the TV show soundtrack album.


Sincerely yours and awaiting your feedback. David Vesel (porphyrous) Porphyrous 17:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions of 13 October 2006

On 13 October 2006 Shadowhillway deleted several entries. If this article, like so many others, is going to include pop culture references to the subject, where does one draw the line? I suppose imitating a theremin with one lips crosses whatever line one might draw. That aside, why leave some TV appearances but delete others? Why delete the theremin reference in Hannibal (although it does not deserve a Level 2 headline of its own)? I do agree with deleting the recently inserted unsourced section on LaVey, which seems bogus: theremin performers are not "registered", and there were certainly more than 2 US performers ever since the instrument was introduced here. But I question the other textual deletions (I haven't looked at the deleted links). I welcome others' comments. Finell (Talk) 06:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

These types of lists should be long enough to offer some representative examples, but cannot be made so long as to be comprehensive. The actual members need to be determined by consensus if there is disagreement. I am content to let others make the choices. --Blainster 21:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
By all means revert what you believe is relevant. It's just that fancruft seems to be an increasing problem on Wikipedia. Simpsons references are polluting a lot of articles, and those cartoons that were mentioned in this article are especially not notable in my view. • Shadowhillway 04:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I think pop references should relate to bands that either (a) Use the instrument extensively (e.g. Pere Ubu with their last album) or (b) are well-known and their use of the instrument is notable though uncommon. Using the instrument once or twice, or in the occasional live performance, isn't good enough (notable exception: Led Zeppelin because they used it so frequently live). Otherwise, as I pointed out above, there are over 700 band references in the Theremin World band database.
"Fancruft" is a new word for me. :-) I assume that means a drive-by edit of a fan. But we also need to watch drive-by's by would-be thereminists. Based on my research into and knowledge of theremin recordings, I have tried to keep a bozo filter active for self-adds. The girl from Salt Lake had no business being there, e.g. On the other hand, I've never heard of Beatrix Ward-Fernandez at all, in any theremin circles, but that doesn't necessarily mean her inclusion isn't valid. There are still a lot of "isolated" thereminists. The thereminist community, such as it is, doesn't number a whole lot of people anyway (in my research over the last 18 months, I've turned up only about 60 active thereminists with enough profile, skill, and recorded output to be deemed "notable") and so it can be difficult to ascertain whether or not someone is notable enough to mention.
I think pop culture references, like the Hannibal excerpt, could be included if put into a "trivia" category of interesting appearances. Interesting is, of course, in the eye of the beholder, but I think it's not out of the question either. There are several other notable but light and fluffy references to the instrument, such as the scene in The Delicate Delinquent where Jerry Lewis faces off against a vintage RCA theremin, or the Scrabble reference in an 8th season episode of M*A*S*H. They're fun but certainly not crucial.
Thank you for not deleting the reference to my Internet radio program. I know of no other regular media program in any format that covers the topic. I was afraid some folks might think it was spammish.
A couple folks here do seem particularly knowledgeable about the instrument. Feel free to contact me via e-mail if you ever want to discuss or coordinate edits.
Porphyrous 17:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Look before you link, people

Not just this article, this is justwhere I've fixed so many of these I'm breakingdown and saying something...

There's an annoying phenomenon where people will automatically link up any name they see (even if there's no real famousness there). It's easy to understand they hope someone will come along and fill in an article on that person later. Great. Except... the problem is that oftentimes those names are already in use by someone else.

This article was edited to end up indicating that a sportscaster or somesuch who was born in 1965 suggested theinvention of the theremin, after which it was invented in 1919. Uhm... all it takes is looking to see if the name you are linking has an article and making sure it's the right person!

Use the Preview button, then if your new link-up isn't red, follow it!

If it's not the right person, take out your link.


[edit] Neutral Milk Hotel

The sound in the song In the Aeroplane Over the Sea is a musical saw, played by Julian Koster. I've left this bit, but corrected as it's a common misconception that it's a theremin.

Liam Markham 14:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] blue meanies

dischordant ska/punk jazz ensamble the blue meanies use a theremin quite a bit in one or two of the tracks on their album full throttle (1997) on thick records, (eg track 16) this is once crazy bnd; swing-jazz to punk-noise and back again within the sapce of a bar and half:) excellent! G00fd 21:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nutritional?

Why do I keep associating this word with some concept in nutrition? What am I thinking of? Should there be a helpful link to the topic at the top of this article to help people as confused as I am? -- Lenoxus 19:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you are thinking of Thiamin. I don't think we need a "helpful link", I don't think this is a common confusion (just guessing though). Cheers, Doctormatt
That's the one; thanks! And yeah, you're probably right; I read more often than I listen (if that makes sense) so a lot of the pronunciations in my head are really just "made up" (given the non-phonetic tendencies of English). — Lenoxus 16:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I do, too. I think it's the combination of "therapy" and "vitamin", as well as all the "thermogenics" and "pheremone" stuff we hear about. There is also a product called "Thermogen". 68.165.172.247 05:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catfights and bannings?

The performance section ends with an admonition that the world of Thereminitude is marked--nay, scarred--by brawls, catfights, and presumably murders and cannibalism over whether it's all right to touch the coil-thingys... Could we have a citation of a theremin-induced brawl or something?

Man... over a freakin' THEREMIN...DougRWms 05:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In popular music

The "In popular music" section list of bands/musicians who have used theremins is getting a little out of control, both in length and in lack of references. Anyone mind if I delete those bands whose WP articles do not mention the use of theremins? That would cut things down to a bit more reasonable size I think. What d'y'all think? Doctormatt 21:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for everyone's input on this... I went ahead and trimmed the section to include only those bands/musicians with WP articles mentioning theremin use as a first step toward verifiiability. If you think a band should be on the list, please improve the band's page with verifiable theremin use information first. Cheers, Doctormatt 02:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I support this. At uni I built a theremin, and in my research found a lot of conflicting reports on where the instrument could be heard. Most commonly, "Good Vibrations" by the Beach Boys... I was actually surprised, despite playing the theremin, to find out that this song does NOT include one. Perhaps a section on "instruments commonly confused with the theremin"? :-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.86.138.193 (talk) 22:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
Well, someone should probably eliminate the external link to publicbroadcasting.net, "Theramin Music Gaining Popularity", because "Good Vibrations" is the first thing you hear when you click on it, even before any dialogue. 68.165.172.247 05:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boogiepop Phantom

In the last episode of the anime Boogiepop Phantom a theremin in used but does anyone know if it is accually a thermin being played? And should this maybe be mentioned in the TV section.

[edit] Muse

Matt Bellamy does not posess a Theramin, much less one built into his guitar. You can easily see that it's a Kaoss Pad! (Source: Matthew Bellamy). How did this get let into the article?

"However, this is not a standard theremin; it is a pad on Matt Belamy's guitar that uses the movement of his finger or plectrum on the pad to create the sound."

How does that describe a Theramin!? I'll delete the whole part about Muse for now. If anyone wants to put in about how he's commonly mistaken to own one, be my guest. Enaku 14:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting that. And in case anything thinks it's a good idea, please don't add that he's commonly mistaken to own one: this is unverifiable (what source could one give for this?), and I cannot imagine how this would be notable. Cheers, Doctormatt 17:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Gallery

I've read that the song The Gallery by Muse uses a theremin, but I am not able to find any source other than the mentioned Musewiki page and an old version of this Wikipedia article mirrored on Answers.com (search for "the gallery"). Danilo.Piazzalunga 17:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] non-linearity of pitch distances

I've heard that the distance from whole tone to whole tone is non-linear, meaning from C to C# might be 3 mm, but from A to A3 might be 4.5 mm. But I didn't see anything about that in the Performance technique section where I would expect it, and I didn't see it in a quick skim of the rest of the article. Is this true or just misinformation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.83.131 (talk)

It seems that theremins are designed to be as linear as possible, but that perfect linearity may not be possible, at least with classic theremin design. (google "theremin" and "linearity" for a variety of webpages on the topic). This should be somewhere in the article - we should find a good source for this info. Cheers, Doctormatt 01:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's an okay source, go down to the section called playability. http://www.thereminworld.com/article.asp?id=31
definitely not linear. i own a theremin, and it definitely not linear.

172.162.60.139 22:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attention Doctormatt

Doctormatt,

I am very easy to contact -- someone of your stated credentials would have needed only a few keystrokes to locate my email address and contact me. To remove my contribution unilaterally without making contact was unnecessary.

Indeed, the reason I added the link was because there were other such links. Again, no one from Wiki or the theremin community ever advised me that the link was inappropriate.

The problem I have with the removal of the link was that you left another thereminist's self-promotional link intact. I trust that this was unintentional and I went ahead and corrected this oversight.

I have better things to do than to fight with you over whether a particular link should or should not be on this page. However, since you have taken it upon yourself to remove so-called "self promotional" links then I hope you will continue to do so with fairness to all.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kissinger Kkissinger 00:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words and thanks for participating in Wikipedia by removing inappropriate external links - that helps a lot. Cheers, Doctormatt 06:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Doctormatt,

The tone of my message to you was unkind. Thank you for being gracious about it. Since then, I read wiki's guidelines on links to personal web sites and discovered that it is inappropriate for one to post a link to one's own website. Perhaps in the future my work will rate a citation on Wiki so I'll just keep on with what I do.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kkissinger 13:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consideration for the Spellbound program

The link to the Spellbound program was removed. If this link does not violate the Wiki standards, I'd suggest that it be reinstated.

The program has secured rights from all the major working thereminists today including many of the celebrities that are cited in the article. While it is not a "major" podcast compared to mainstream instruments, it is the only program that consists of theremin music from beginning to end. The program has no commercial advertisements and features Theremin music that covers the world and a full compass of theremin styles. For someone that wants a "crash listening course" that covers the breadth of theremin music, the "Spellbound" program is, to my knowledge, the best source of such information.

Rather than add this link myself, I think it would be better if this is added by consensus. The "Spellbound" program is doing a great service for theremin music. Thank you for your consideration.

Kkissinger 03:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Music articles present an interesting situation in that sound is not particularly easily incorporporated into Wikipedia, as text can, so it seems natural that music articles should have more external links than some other articles. Spellbound seems like a decent resourse. I note that, while there is currently no advertising on the podcast, it says here http://spellbound.purplenote.com/ads.htm that they are working on having "on air" advertisements, so that decreases my interest in supporting linking to them. We have the link to thereminworld.com, and they link to Spellbound pretty well, so Spellbound is not hard to find. MUSTARD's guidelines don't really address this kind of article (unless I've missed something). I'm interested to hear what others think. Doctormatt 06:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
With the pre-stated disclaimer that I am not totally objective on this issue, I nonetheless (as a previous editor of this article) would like to present my views for consideration. I can tell you with great certainty that there will be no advertising on Spellbound, a brief program of music for theremin any time in the near or mid future. It's a bit of a pipe dream to think that anyone in their right mind is going to buy advertising time on a podcast, to be perfectly realistic, and the upcoming revision of the Spellbound web site will not have any reference to advertising. So if that is worrying you concerning including it as a valid informational resource worthy of the External Links section, you needn't worry further. No money is, or ever likely will, be made on the program. As for it being linked to from Theremin World, you must ask yourself if being linked to by another listed site is truly a veto-worthy trait of a proposed link. A link is either worthy, in and of itself, on its own merits as a secondary source of relevant and reasonably objective information, or it is not, regardless of who else may link to it. I would assert the program, being unique, is worthy of listing, but I am biased, being its producer and host. All that I ask is that whoever takes it upon themselves to maintain this article does so with fairness and objectivity, and consults with people in the thereminist community if any portion of the article is beyond their expertise. I humbly submit these viewpoints and leave it to you.

Porphyrous 02:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Being linked to by another listed site is, as you call it, a "veto-worthy trait of a proposed link" in that it is a stated guideline on Wikipedia that external links by kept to a minimum (see WP:EL). If there is a resource out there that can be found by a reader following one of the links already in the article (e.g. Spellbound via ThereminWorld), that decreases the need for a direct link in the wikipedia article, and that helps keep the number of external links to a minimum. One common technique for reducing external links is, indeed, to link to directory sites (e.g. [www.dmoz.org]). For this article, it seems to me that the thereminworld link is acting as a kind of directory link, since it is well-connected to lots of other theremin sites. This decreases the need for additional external links in this article. Doctormatt 03:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theremin use in Midsomer Murders theme

Note: I moved this discussion from my personal talk page to this one. Perhaps someone can find more information.


Hello. I notice that you removed a "citation needed" tag from Theremin without providing a citation. Can you explain why? Thanks. Doctormatt 18:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It's Celia Sheen performing on her Henk theremin. Can't remember where I read it, but since it's use is that prominent, it's a well known fact in the theremin community. You may look at the imdb entry, too. (Which isn't a scientifically reliable source, either). I still wonder why the tag was there anyway. It's obviously a theremin. As a thereminist, you learn to tell the difference from synths or ondes martenot. If you want citations, you might as well tag every second sentence in the article. --megA 11:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: Or you may perform a google search: http://www.makingmusiclondon.com/londharm/LH%20May05.pdf, on page six. Case closed? -- megA 11:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Please read WP:CITE and WP:VERIFY for information about why citations are needed. Saying it is "obviously" a theremin is not sufficient to let other readers verify anything. I think the article link you gave is a decent enough reference: I'll add it to the article. Thanks for your cooperation. Doctormatt 23:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I am aware of the relevant policy articles. I still do not see why you picked out this particular information. There are 26 examples in this section alone without either a reference or a CN tag. If you had any doubts about this information you may have voiced them on this page. Better than applying CN tags at random. It is obvious why e.g. German Wikipedia abolished the "citation needed" tag altogether. If you are sure an information is wrong, change it. -- megA 13:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Many of the examples mention theremin use on their own WP article (where issues of citation can be dealt with instead of on the theremin page), or the theremin use is implied to be visually apparent if one actually views the show (etc.), so the show itself constitutes a reference. In the case of theme music, there is no way to verify it by simply listening, and the Midsomer Murders article makes no mention of theremin use. And anyway, we have to start somewhere. Thanks for helping to improve the article. Doctormatt 17:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
"In the case of theme music, there is no way to verify it by simply listening."
I am (almost) speechless. This is a completely baseless assumption. Just because you can't doesn't mean anybody else can't. Anybody with some ear training can tell an oboe from an oboe d'amore or a cor anglais. Same thing with the theremin compared to an ondes or a synthesizer. (or an electric violin). It's the way they are played. You cannot emulate a theremin's characteristic attacks and tone shape changes on a synthesizer. The Ondes is also a completely different thing, acoustically. If you have played the theremin for some years (as I have), you learn to tell the difference between different manufactureres, models and players. You always recognize Hoffman. Rockmore. Kavina. And you can tell RCAs from Moogs and, in this case, Henks. Since the theremin is used not only in the theme music, but also throughout the show, you can find plenty of listening material. So please apply the high standards you seek in others to yourself and abstain from unsourced claims like this. Thanks for your understanding. -- megA 18:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the trouble is that just because you can verify, by listening, that something played is a theremin doesn't mean the average wikipedia reader can. This is one reason why citations are needed: so that claims can be verified by the general reader. Also, one can take a theremin recording, edit it and run it through a variety of processors so that it is not recognizable as a theremin, yet, since it is a recording of a theremin, it can be claimed as using a theremin (this applies to all instruments, not just theremins). As a result, in order to maintain consistent policy, I think it best to request citations for these claims, and I do believe this is standard Wikipedia policy, as described at WP:CITE and WP:VERIFY. I don't see why you seem to oppose adding citations: the citations make the article better, by allowing average readers to get more information about this instrument, and I believe they help keep incorrect claims of theremin use (of which I'm sure you've seen many) out of the article (if you don't opppose the adding of citations, I apologize for reading that into your writing). By the way, unsourced claims are, by Wikipedia policy, allowed on talk pages, but feel free to continue to correct anything incorrect I might write; you are clearly very knowledgeable, and I hope you continue helping to improve the article. Doctormatt 22:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
As for the argument about whether a recorded instrument is still this instrument, that is a rather philosophical topic and the discussions have been going on at least since the invention of samplers. (probably much earlier). In the case of "thereminspotting", I'd say you can trust the community, who watch eagerly over the theremin "canon". If someone claimed a theremin was used in, let's say "My Left Foot", (it was an ondes, btw) that claim would soon be removed. I am not against adding citations. Goodness, no. But, as I see WP:PROVEIT, citations are needed and should be provided by the editor if the content is challenged. (or likely to be challenged) (Besides, too many quotation tags clutter up the text, IMO. I prefer a cleaner look. But that's just aesthetics.) You may apply the "fact" tag if you have doubts about a claim. In this case, you should voice your doubts on the talk page. If you know better, you should change or delete it (WP:BOLD). If you are not sure, a quick search on the net might bring up the appropriate citation and you can do the fix yourself instead of waiting for the original editor to come back to the "scene of his crime". I consider this more productive than adding a tag which will be left there forever, if nobody else cares. Those are my opinions and interpretations of policies. As I stated before, German wikipedia, where I also do some work, abolished the "fact" tag altogether. If something bugs you, fix it. (If you know how.) -- megA 20:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't like the look of citation tags either, but I like uncited material less. For myself, I don't leave citation tags around forever: I always date them, and give about one month for a citation to be given; if one is not, I remove the claim and the tag. I also try to leave a message on the contributing editor's talk page, letting them know that a citation would be appreciated. After all the nonsense I've seen people add to Wikipedia, I don't trust any uncited claim of theremin use, so I add citation tags to this article a lot. I don't believe we can "trust" the "community" regarding thereminspotting any more than we can trust all the other "communities" regarding everything else on Wikipedia: Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not truth, and certainly not trust. Doctormatt 23:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abandoned site in external links?

Thereminvox.com seems to be abandoned. It hasn't been updated since May. 68.165.172.247 04:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russian?

"Delicious carbuncle" has, without discussion, removed the Russian musical instruments category on the grounds that the theremin is "not generally associated with Russian music". I move to revert this edit because the instrument was developed in the Soviet Union by a Russian inventor.Ibadibam (talk) 19:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

A Russian inventor and a Russian instrument does not automatically become categorised as Russian music. The Russian music category is for the music of Russia, not people or instruments. Now if there are "Russian musical instruments" or "Russian inventions" categories then go for it, meanwhile Delicious carbuncle's edit is correct. --WebHamster 20:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Please review the category of Russian instruments. They are all instruments associated with Russian music. The theremin is not, and therfore does not belong in that category. The fact that Theremin himself was Russian is very clearly covered in the article. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Our problem is that Category:Russian musical instruments is subcategorized differently than categories related to other countries in that it is a subcategory of Category:Russian folk music and Category:Folk instruments. If the category is meant to refer only to those instruments associated with Ethnic Russian music, it should be renamed Russian folk instruments. If not, it should be should be recategorized.
In the latter case, I would agree with WebHamster that a category titled Russian musical instruments is a category of nationality and not of genre, and thus this article would be part of that category.Ibadibam (talk) 23:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I disagree for the reasons already stated. The other "national" categories refer to instruments that relate to music associated with that "nation", which are generally folk musics. Perhaps you are right about moving Category:Russian musical instruments, but please do not alter its name or purpose. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually my comment about the "Russian musical instruments" category was a brain fart on my part. I meant to type "Russian-made musical instruments". I actually agree with Delicious carbuncle's rationale about how the category relates to instruments used to make ethnic Russion music. A look at the category's existing contents will attest to that. I can't say I've ever heard a Russian folk tune played on a theremin, at least not whilst sober! --WebHamster 03:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay. We have a consensus on the theremin; it will stay out of the category, because the category is intended only for folk instruments. But I still think the category is confusing if it's going to refer only to folk instruments and not be called "Russian folk instruments" (as the categories for Ukrainian and Georgian instruments are). Do you see what I'm saying?Ibadibam (talk) 05:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The Georgian category is only a few days old. Both it and the Ukranian category should probably be renamed to be consistent with the other category pages, if they are of any value. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I also think this is a good idea. William Ortiz (talk) 02:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Portishead (once and for all!)

I, for my part, have never seen any proof that Portishead actually used a theremin. In the videos available on youtube they use a monophonic synthesizer. Although credited with "Theremin" on "Dummy", Utley used an analog synth, as he "confesses" here. -- megA (talk) 10:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tagged: Unencyclopedic, trivia, examplefarm

I have tagged various sections in this article per the official policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, in particular Wikipedia is not a repository of internal links and Wikipedia is not an indiscrimminate collection of information. I'd say about 75% of the examples given don't need to be there. There are probably millions of examples of people using a theremin. There is no need to list them all, especially if the theremin use (or the user) isn't notable in any way. (And that includes Portishead mentioned above.) =Axlq (talk) 06:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, but where do we draw the line? And who is to decide who gets a place in here and who doesn't? Until there isn't a consensus here, no drastic action should be taken. I, for my part, see the "Theremin in use" as a guide for someone who wants to hear or see what a theremin is. So accessibility of the reference should be a criterion. For example, a movie featuring the theremin, which is accessible nation- or worldwide is IMHO more important than thereminist Wrxldrmbr performing with her band Xlbfft, which apparently is a huge success in and around Topanga, CA... Accessibility. Or we create a separate page: Theremin Usage or something like that.-- megA (talk) 10:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
EDIT: It should also be considered whether it is appropriate to have, as the only photograph of a living thereminist, a promotional shot of Carolina Eyck, not even playing but leaning on her instrument. (Except that she is cute.) Lydia Kavina, apart from being way more important than Carolina (and almost as good-looking as well), actually plays the theremin on the photograph on her article. -- megA (talk) 12:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia policies don't exist for the sake of existing; they exist because they are possible to implement and comply with. Where you draw the line is simple if you follow the notability guidelines. Artists notable for using a theremin (i.e. a critic has commented on it) should be included. Notable artists who use it as an integral part of the majority of their music should be included. A theremin's presence in a critically-acclaimed or top-ranked work probably deserves mention. All others — especially non-notable works, as well as artists who just happened to experiment with a theremin once or twice — should be excluded.
This isn't a matter of consensus. It's a matter of policy, which has already been established by consensus. =Axlq (talk) 18:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I am aware of Wikipedia policies, thanks for the lecture. "Integral part of the majority" and "probably deserves mention" are expressions as flexible as chewing gum. (By the way, the notability guidelines are about whole articles, not separate entries within an article. Furthermore WP:NOTABILITY is a guideline, not a policy. "Common sense" should be applied as well, if present.) Nobody "owns" this article and nobody is an appointed editor to this article. So you will only achieve anything if you find a viable modus operandi from and with as many as possible. If not, people will add random content again and again, and flaunting your sacrosanct policies won't keep them from doing it. (By he way, thanks for not adressing any point I have made above.) This isn't a job for politicians, but for people who know what they are doing. -- megA (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome. :) Thank you, in turn, for your condescending remarks.
I didn't address your points because I didn't find them relevant. I'll do so now:
  • "No drastic action should be taken". Drastic action is always appropriate to eliminate accumulated listcruft, linkspam, editorial comments, whatever. It grows gradually by dribs and drabs, and eventually someone notices the mess. At that time, you prune it, not nibble away. Note that I have not yet done so; I am only discussing it.
  • "Accessibility of the reference should be a criterion." No, that's subjective. An artist's use of a theremin mentioned in verifiable, reliable sources should be the criterion. A work may not be accessible (say, it exists only on a vinyl LP now out of print) but may have earned a comment from a notable critic about theremin use, and should be mentioned. Similarly, an accessible work (last month's top-40 pop song) that happened to include a theremin, but wasn't noted by critics or anyone else for using a theremin, isn't worth mentioning in the article. A bunch of works utilize the flute; but the flute article doesn't, and shouldn't, make an exhaustive list of all flute users and works employing it! Accessibility is irrelevant except insofar as it's related to notability, which is relevant.
  • "For example, a movie featuring the theremin, which is accessible nation- or worldwide is IMHO more important than thereminist Wrxldrmbr performing with her band Xlbfft" - I agree, but accessibility isn't the criterion here, it's notability. A work having a worldwide audience is more appropriate, but only if the work is notable for its use of a theremin.
  • Caronina Eyck vs Lydia Kavina: I think both pictures should be included, but that's not the topic of the discussion in this talk page section.
Finally, I never said WP:NOTABILITY was a policy. You are correct, that guideline is primarily for articles. I should have instead pointed out that we have a policy requiring Verifiability, as well as guidelines covering reliable sources and trivia sections. Some of the listcruft reads like trivia now, is not sourced, and if sources are found, the only one might be the liner notes of the album - hardly a criterion deserving of mention.
You have a valid point about maintenance and preventing further accumulation of detritus. Many articles on Wikipedia have this problem, and they are kept under control by editors with an interest in the subject. This article has gone out of control.
The only reason I haven't started pruning down the examples is because I think it'll be a daunting task to see if verifiable and reliable sources can be found for each example, one at a time. The task wouldn't be so hard if a simple standard for inclusion were enforced from the outset (i.e. requiring a citation for any new example). Finding a good 4 hour block of time in which to do this will be difficult, at least for me. =Axlq (talk) 02:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, now we've all been nice to each other, let's talk business. (Sorry for my remarks, but I am sensitive about (probably unintentional) WP:WL, because it offers no practical approach to a specific problem) Your points are, theoretically, absolutely valid, and I think we can agree that many of the entries in the "Theremin in use" lists are apocryphical. But the problem here is not notability, but meta-notability. How notable is an artist who has a self-promotional article on WP? What are notable critics? You will not only have to check the entries, but also the sources behind the entries. I agree with you that this is a lifetime task.
On the other side, take as an example Anis Fuleihan. By some strange fate, he has not yet an article on WP, yet he has been a prolific composer of classical music and at least one movie soundtrack (which, even stranger, doesn't appear on imdb) and Guggenheim laureate. And what is more important for us over here, he has written the only Concerto for Theremin and Orchestra available on CD, performed by Stokowski and Rockmore, who there shows a virtuosity that hasn't been matched again by anyone since 1945. So what do we do about him? I consider it an important work do display the possibilities of the theremin, and it can easily be accessed by a researcher. Yet, it's composer is not "notable" in the sense of the word, despite the work being featured all over the internet.
Another point is that the theremin is still an obscure instrument. I feel there aren't enough "notable" sources actually dealing with performers. Certain musicians could be considered notable among the theremin community, but are still unknown by the majority. The most notable use of the Theremin, in "Good Vibratons", is a misconception. The Samuel Hoffman/Les Baxter LP "Perfume set to music", apart from being more successful in it's time than Crosby's "White Christmas", is considered a milestone by the community, but is it really notable? I for myself do not consider a (potentially self-promotional) WP article as enough evidence for notability, or verifiability.
So, what is the practical way to approach this mess? The most "sanitary" way would be to delete everything and only allow new entries with proper citation. (and I say excluding personal WP articles) But this would leave a wasteland for a long time. We have to think about what a reader coming to this article really needs. A video showing a Led Zeppelim member waving his hands and guitar around a theremin may be notable, but I'd rather include someone less notable, who shows an excellent playing technique. Verifyable information, yes, but also relevant and _informative_ information. -- megA (talk) 11:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)