Talk:Theotokos of Vladimir

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[edit] Article's name: Our Lady of Vladimir or Theotokos of Vladimir?

The name of this article should be changed to Theotokos of Vladimir, to reflect the correct translation of its Russian name. (Theotokos means Mother of God.) --Matrona 23:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

This is English Wiki. Theotokos is not English translation, but a Greek original. --Ghirlandajo

The word Theotokos was adopted directly into English. It's used without modification in English hymns of the Orthodox Church. Therefore, it is an English word.  :) --Matrona 06:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

The article has been moved recently (not by me) from Our Lady of Vladimir to Theotokos of Vladimir. I think this should be moved back to "Our lady..." Theotokos may be also English but it seems to me that it's a less common name. I would like to express this here briefly for comments and will raise this at WP:RM. --Irpen 05:23, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Theotokos is the correct translation, and it is definitely the more common name among Orthodox. I've noticed that sources and people that describe Orthodox icons as "Our Lady of X," tend not to be familiar with the nuances of Orthodox Mariology as it differs from Roman Catholic Mariology. The "Our Lady" epithet carries a lot of the implications of Roman Catholic Mariology that do not belong in an article about an Orthodox icon. --Matrona 09:26, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I will get back to the naming issue later. In the meanwhile, do we have any proof about the '41 event? In any case it might belong to the article, but if it is a legend or a rumor the article should simply speak of it as such. --Irpen 01:46, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Once again, I think "Our Lady of Vladimir" is the correct English name. When creating this article, I found it in the Britannica 2004. --Ghirlandajo 05:56, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Google search shows an advantage of "Our Lady.." by about a factor of three. Among the sites, were even the ones that belong to Orthodox organization. But if Britannica too, I see no reason to wait. I will post it at WP:RM. I deeply respect the religious feelings, but I don't see how the coinsidence with a Catholic name somehow undermines the Ortohodox nature of this subject. That Theotokos is the word used more frequently in Church affairs is an argument, I agree. But not strong enough to overcome the clearly prevailing English usage. If anyone needs, I will bring references to appopriate WP policy pages--Irpen 06:04, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

This article should remain under the title Theotokos of Vladimir. It's an Orthodox icon, not a Roman Catholic one, and the name ought to reflect that tradition. Philip Arthur 06:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Very well, I respect your opinion. I agree that it is a good name for the icon, but I disagree it is a right name for an article in WP. Since people don't always agree on everything, the move proposals are brought up for a vote at WP:RM. Sincerely, --06:15, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Exquisite icons

pasted from my talk. --Irpen 06:09, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

My main problem with describing the Theotokos of Vladimir as one of the most exquisite icons created is that it sounds like an opinion on the part of the article's author -- something we generally steer clear of. Could we source it, do you think? It's certainly exquisite, so it should be no problem finding someone of note and reputation who says so. Philip Arthur 06:25, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. I will look/ask around. Thanks and please don't take our disagreement over an article name personally. As I said there, I consider all religious topics with outmost respect. As I said at talk:Theotokos of Vladimir, I just think that "Theotocos of ..." is not the best way to name the article. The word can certainly be introduced in the very first sentence and redirect from it will not be deleted. Anyway, we'll see how and when the consensus emerges. --Irpen 06:33, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Legend related to Stalin

I moved the following text here for clarification:

...In December 1941, as the Germans approached Moscow, Stalin ordered that the icon be placed in an airplane and flown around the besieged capital. Several days later, the German army started to retreat.

If this is a known fact, I would like to see sources. If it is a legend, it should be presented as a legend also with some explanation of its origin, if there are any. I have my doubts because if this was done, I don't see why Stalin kept this in secret. To boost patriotism and devotion of people, this story would need to be publicized rather than left in obscurity. He could have done this in secret if he honestly believed this could help. Knowing what we know about Stalin, this is doubtful, although not impossible. Still, we need some clarification for this to remain in the article uncommented. --Irpen 20:25, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Please address the issues raised above about the WW2 story. I don't want to remove it for the second time in row, but we cannot keep this unsourced. Online links aren't necessary. Just site the book or anything, whatever's applicable. Thanks! --Irpen 20:18, 14 September 2005 (UTC)