Talk:Theory of relativity/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

What is relative and why?

I think the reason for the word "relativity" should be explained on this page. What is relative, and why?

appears to be done.

Regarding a recent change to this article--I'm no physicist, but I always thought that relativity states that mass increases as velocity approaches the speed of light. Am I wrong on this?

Rest mass is a constant, but mass itself indeed increases in such a way that one can never accelerate an object beyond c.

Twin paradox

I'd like very much to hear about the twins paradox. Never been much comfortable with that one.

The basic non-symmetry is that one twin must accelerate to return to the other to compare ages face-to-face. Whilst they are in inertial frames, it holds. Dave McKee

Indeed, so it is not really a paradox (as is also the case for many so-called paradoxes). The twin that goes into the spaceship will be younger when arriving back, which is possible (and easy!) to describe with special relativity in the frame of the twin at Earth, but you'll need general relativity to describe correctly in the frame of the traveling twin, only to get the same result in a harder way, of course. -- JBC

It's a convention, not an absolute. In the way that mass is used currently in physics, it's an invariant between reference frames, i.e. it doesn't change with velocity. Mass = "rest mass", and "relativistic mass" is not used. There is an alternate formulation of relativity that uses the concept of "relativistic mass" because using it lets you keep using some familiar Newtonian mechanics (e.g. F=mr a). But the invariant mass approach turns out to be somewhat easier to generalise into GR, so that's what basically everyone uses now. You'll still find "relativistic mass" in some textbooks (e.g., Feynman's Lectures on Physics) and in a lot of popularisations (I think it's in "A Brief History of Time"), but not in, say, graduate level textbooks and research papers.

For more on this, see [ http://www2.corepower.com:8080/~relfaq/mass.html]. Come to think of it, this should probably be written up in mass. -- DrBob

Time dilation

I remember reading once upon a time in some primary school-level book on relativity that if you approached a black hole you might never experience enterring it due to time dilation -- as you approach it your velocity approaches c, but time dilation reduces subjective time to the point you never enter it. Is this true, or is this just some mangled garbage? -- SJK

That happens according to a frame of reference far from the black hole. in your frame, you are swallowed in a finite time. (from what i remember)--AN

Galilean relativity?

Galileo was actually the fella who first proposed a relativity principle. I would like to (1) redo the article to review the various relativity principles or postulates. (2) Remove material that duplicates material in the Special Relativity and General Relativity entries and replace the removed stuff with links to them. (3) In short, do a more general treatment that links to more specific entries.

If there is no objection, I will replace the entry with my revision on the 16th of August, this month.

 - change of mind August 20 - I think I will do a separate article on The Principle of Relativity ( new article ).

Hilbert, not Einstein ?

Some things are missing here:

The formulas of special relativity ("Lorentz transformations") where first published by Woldemar Voigt in 1887 in his paper "Über das Doppler'sche Princip". FitzGerald, Lorentz and Larmor later published the same formulas. The name "Lorentz transformation" was chosen by Poincaré, but Lorentz prefered the to call them "Relativistic transformations" because he was aware that Voigt and FitzGerald found them before him.

The theory of special relativity is not by Albert Einstein but by Jules Henri Poincaré. In 1898, Poincaré stated that simultaneity is relative. In 1902, he discusses relative space and time in "Science and hypothesis". In 1904 during his speech in Saint Louis, Poincaré stated the principle of relativity for electromagnetism (The Galileo relativity is about mechanics). On July 5th, Poincaré published his paper ""Sur la dynamique de l'électron"". This paper contains the proof that the Lorentz transformations are a group. We know for sure (from the Einstein-Solovine letters) that Einstein has read "Science & Hypothesis" in 1902. There are also good reasons to believe that Einstein has read the 1905 Poincaré paper (Einstein made summaries & translations of several physics journals for the Annalen der Physik, including the journal "Comptes rendus" in which Poincaré published.)

The theory of general relativity is not by Albert Einstein, but by David Hilbert. Hilbert sent a pre-publication of his paper to Einstein. On November 18th, 1915, Einstein writes to Hilbert to confirm he has received the article. On november 20th, Hilbert submits his paper "Die Grundlagen der Physik. (Erste Mitteilung)" - it was published in January 1916. On November 25th, Einstein submits his paper "Die Feldgleichungen der Gravitation." - it was publised before the Hilbert paper on December 2nd 1915.

In 1763, Robert Joseph Boscovich sj. anticipated the "principle of Mach", "length contraction", "time dilatation" and "invariance" in the appendix of his book "A Theory of Natural Philosophy".

In 1782, George-Louis Lesage already knew that gravity propagates at light speed.

In the 1870s, Robert Stevenson (a.k.a. "Kinertia") anticipated the principle of equivalence.

In 1872, Camille Flamarion, published the "thought experiment of Einstein" in his book "Lumen".

in 1801, Johan Georg von Soldner anticipates the effect of gravitation on light.

in 1875, S. Tolver Preston predicts atomic energy, the A-bomb and superconductivity - based on the formula E=mc²

Here are the sources (and, very convincing, I'd say) that claim Hilbert's primacy in formulation of GR:

http://www.nobel.se/physics/educational/relativity/history-1.html

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Einstein.html

A neutral view: http://physics.rug.ac.be/Fysica/Geschiedenis/HistTopics/General_relativity.html

This one bets on Einstein, but half-heartedly: http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/gen.GR8.html

And this one is emotionally charged against Einstein: http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/einstein.htm Mir Harven 07:55, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

move here

Unfortunately the result was a theory that was based on circular postulates (eg. time dilation is attributable to velocity, but velocity is distance divided by time) and one which, though it is widely claimed otherwise, ultimately conflicts with empirical evidence (eg. data from GPS satellites; Miller's, and Michelson-and-Gale's interferometer experiments of the early 20th Century that strongly suggest an ether; the objectively measurable, as opposed to observer-based status of so-called time dilation). It was without any reasoning that Einstein had assumed atomic oscillation to be the true measure of the flow of time, and the famous 'twin paradox' that followed from the fact that ageing is not a subjective process that depends upon reference frame, is in direct conflict with Einstein's basic postulates and reasoning, to the effect that Einsein's later general relativity must collapse also, and relativity, which is rejected by NASA and many prominent physicists, is of interest only in a historical sense. Famous anti-relatitivity papers include Guy Burniston Brown's What is Wrong With Relativity; Herbert Dingle's equally critical 'Science at the Crossroads' was published in 1972.

"In 1782, George-Louis Lesage already knew that gravity propagates at light speed." What is your basis for this wild claim? Considering that gravity waves are incredibly weak and were only detected in the 20th century (Nobel prize in 1993 to Taylor and Hulse, according to Wikipedia), how did Lesage determine this? Crystal ball? Tarot cards?

As for 3 of your other statements, I notice that you qualify them with the word "anticipates". I can anticipate the first contact with an intelligent alien race - does that mean you should start putting up monuments to me?

The only claim that may have any merit seems to be Hilbert's contribution to the general theory of relativity. There's a lively discussion about this in the article on Einstein. Clarityfiend 07:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis

I agree this page should be a synopsis, in which the charcater of general principle of SR and its application inside ordinary matter should be apparent. Thus I reverted to the previous mention of these issues; please let me hear opinions.

This isn't generally accepted science.

Special relativity thus makes a general principle with applications in physics, chemistry, and even life sciences. It not only depicts relationships between the perspectives taken from loose moving bodies. Often together with quantum mechanics, special relativity is also employed to describe microphysical motions inside lumps of condensed matter, like pebbles and biological organs such as kidneys or brain. It, e. g., was of help to electroneurobiology researchers trying to explain physiological mechanisms that enact variations of attention, and disconnection states such as sleep and coma, as electric field-mediated relativistic effects in brain biophysics.
    • Hi, Roadrunner! You had avowed, "The only thing I care to reveal about myself is that I am a subscriber to Time Warner. Roadrunner." But here you seem also revealing to hate relativity physicists, one of whose more recent sources of revenues is biophysics. You're also contributing to keep students thinking that relativity is just concerned with heavenly matters. I don't believe that a Time Warner subscriber may harbor such bad sentiments, so please remake the paragraph, if you like, but kindly put the concept back on the entry - which becomes too much impoverished otherwise. David--200.42.95.188 17:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • While Roadrunner comes back on changing the above paragraph, I'm reverting to its previous version.

I concur for reversion of this paragraph. Even if it is scientifically founded (I take no position on this question here), it is too particular an issue for a general article about relativity. --French Tourist 14:09, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

      • Too drastic. Since Roadrunner did not yet edit the paragraph of her/his interest, I'm pruning it into a proposed version that keeps the concept (special relativity is being growingly used in basic biomedical research) and wait for her/his opinion. Cheers.

Hi. The users trying to add here the text about the influence of the special relativity in "brain biophysics" are doing the same at es:. They provide little or no evidence apart from their own works, and answered with insults and threats when questionned. We have blocked the article and currently we are trying to decide what to do. If anyone can read Spanish, please take a look at es:Discusión:Teoría_de_la_Relatividad. Thanks. --es:Usuario:Dodo

I don't know whether I'm wrong on this, but I thought that the theory of relativity also states that energy and mass are interchangeable depending on the speed? Can anyone enlighten me on this subject?

That's just a minor consequence of special relativity. The article on that has more on the subject. --Carnildo 06:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removed links

I've removed links to www.anti-relativity.com for the following reasons:

  • The first sentence on the first page is an attack on the reader
  • The first sentence in the "paradoxes" section is an attack on the reader's intelligence. Further, the author demonstrates that he doesn't understand either the twin paradox or the doppler effect with respect to light.
  • The author confuses zero-point energy with aether.
  • The forum only has three threads and four posts.

--Carnildo 17:52, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Relativity Joke

I don't think this (well-known?) joke deserves a place on the main article page (others may disagree), but I thought I would add it here just in case:
Einstein's Theory of Relativity: Time appears to pass slower... when visited by relatives!

Law or theory?

The List of laws in science lists relativity as a law. Either this theory of relativity page should be changed to reflect this or that page be should be changed (if relativity isn't a law). DarthVader 23:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Under physical law, laws of science are, among other things, "always true", "universal", and "eternal". Einsteinian relativity has problems with these, in particular in the quantum realm (see Quantum gravity) and over long timescales (see Cosmological constant). --Carnildo 00:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes I agree. DarthVader 01:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I have found the problem: Whoever created that list did not distinguish between categories and individual laws. In the case of relativity, the editors of that list seem to have had no idea of what the laws of relativity are. I have editted that list to clarify things a ways. --EMS | Talk 03:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

DAB page

I've reviewed this page and believe it should not be listed as a DAB page. Please comment. Thaagenson 22:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree - it's not a dab it's an article explaining the term "Theory of relativity". I recommend removing the {{disambig}}.--Commander Keane 23:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

General relativity date

In the section about general relativity, it says that general relativity was first proposed by Einstein in 1916, then it says it was 1915. This doesn't make sense to me, so I would suggest that you clear that up.

relativity opposition

There are lots of people that don't believe in relativity, some widely known names too. Is there a list of figures and research programs on the wikipedia for anti-relativity research?

I know of no such thing in Wikipedia at this time, or at least not in an article focussed on relativity iteslf. At the least, it is not reference from category:relativity, nor is anything similar in category:special relativity or category:general relativity. I assume that you mean actual opposition to relativity theory itself instead of some variation on the theme such as may be found listed in classical theories of gravitation.
The place where you may find something related is List of alternative, speculative and disputed theories#Physics. Beyond that, if you know of such research programs then perhaps you can create an article on them. The subject, if done properly and with some respect both for the efforts to disprove relativity and for relativity theory itself (or in other words being more or less NPOV) would IMO be quite encyclopedic. --EMS | Talk 15:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Please don't duplicate articles

I did a significant revert just now due to this page having come to contain a lot of text brought in from the special relativity and general relativity pages. Those details do not belong here. Instead this page is to direct people to the proper page based on their interest. Also, duplicating text means that it needs to be maintained in two places! I am not against some thoughtful expansion, but this must remain a high level, broad brush article to be appropriate and effective. --EMS | Talk 15:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal February 2006

It seems to me that the pages at Theory of relativity and Principle of relativity have evolved to the point where they could be merged: there are many duplications; and the reason for starting Principle of relativity -- the emphasis on Einstein's theories at Theory of relativity -- no longer holds, as each of those has been moved out into its own page. Ewlyahoocom 20:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Strongly object - First of all, the de-emphasizing of Einstein's theories in this article was inappropriate, and I have undone it. Secondly, the principle of relativity far predates the theories of relativity, having been used in the formulation of classical mechanics. So the principle and the theory are really two seperate and encyclopedic subjects. --EMS | Talk 15:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I there are no other comments forthcoming, I will soon remove the merge tags. I cannot see this proposal going anywhere. --EMS | Talk 01:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't think we should merge. Freddie 02:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite of intro & removal of talk of "classical theories"

I rewrote the intro since the current one had somehow come to describe "relativity" in a way that even includes Newtonian physics. Let's just say that this is most incorrect. Although Newtonian physics also uses the principle of relativity, as it does not include a locally constant and isotropic one-way lisght speed it is not in the venacular of physics a theory of relativity. I also got rid of the talk of previous theories on the behavior of light since that is best described in an article like the history of special relativity, but is only a distraction at the high level of this article. I also got rid of the {{expert}} tag: I think that this article is fine as is as a high-level review of the subject. It is much better to let the special relativity and general relativity article deal with the specifics of those theories, yet that tag also begs for people to expand this article. --EMS | Talk 15:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Opposition to the "Opposition" section

User:GalaazV added to this article:

==Opposition to the relativity theories==
Main article: Aetherometry
There have been dozens of modern scientists that have pointed out internal inconsistencies and unwarranted assumptions of standard relativity theory [1] [2] and there was already advanced plausible alternative explanations [3] - which includes the model of a dynamic ether with density proportional to the density of any physical substance occupying the area of space concerned, increasing around large bodies such as stars and planets, acting as a refracting medium and affecting the speed of propagation of light and electromagnetic forces, etc. - for all the experimental data and astronomical observations currently cited in support of the special and general theories of relativity.

I find this text to be inappropriate to this article and not very well written. I am therefore going to revert it out. However, I will put a link to the anti-relativity article into the "See Also" section to replace this. --EMS | Talk 23:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that would be because my mothertongue is not English. Anyway, my intention is not to build a section or article about this subject, but just to point out that in different countries there are individuals with attention to current-day Physics (and other science fields as e.g. Geology) status and mainstream 20th century science established thought, although made possible so many advancements in technology (as in my Telecommunications field), is not not to prevail if found that is flawed (as mainstream thought during our western middle ages was proven to be). Regards, --GalaazV 23:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Let me put it to you this way: You cannot place your ideas into Wikipedia at all until they have obtained some mainstream attention, and in any case you cannot showcase alternatives to relativity in an article on relativity. A discreet reference is one thing (which is why I added the anti-relativity link to the "See Also" section), but extensive discussion on alternative ideas inan article for a well established theory like relativity is off-topic and usually lacking in NPOV. Indeed, if Wikipedia had existed in 1908 (when special relativity became respectable), a relativity article back then would certainly have been expected to mention and cite the luminiferous aether but not to discuss it in detail. --EMS | Talk 17:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I understand your point, but who knows if in the 1908's hipothetical Wikipedia, or earlier, a Theory of relativity article would have been much more welcome than the efforts made a few to explain in a decent article what Aetherometry brings and purposes (which was from the beginning subjected to constant and biased negative labeling, ad hoc deletions and final erasion; Talk:Aetherometry). Respect should be mutual: respect is not a subjective attitude, it is a required attituted when discussing so important issues and conceptions, it is not an attitude required only to have toward a "well established theory", but extensive to both approaches, and this was not the case. So, my editions here were highly discreet if compared to the brutality of other wikipedian 'mainstream science' users' editions at the earlier mentioned article. --GalaazV 19:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a soapbox. ... Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collector of information". I hear you on the issue of respect, but you need to respect Wikipedia and its mission. The purpose of this project is to document current human knowledge. The standards for inclusion in Wikipedia is based on part of the NPOV standard, which states that "[i]f a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. In other words, views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." That is why your contributions are getting bounced. Also, do not expect any sympathy from myself on this issue. If you look at my user page, you will see that I am engaged in my own original research, and have very much chosen not to attempt to document it in the article space. Unlike others, I see no need to treat my own unproven viewpoints as some kind of God-given fact, nor to treat Wikipeidia as my personal billboard. --EMS | Talk 06:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Relative realisation

When an astronemer in a ship with relative speed does not note any change in mass or time unless n untill he doesnt look out of his window....

then how come he has to increase the thrust to reach lights speed cuz according to his instruments his ship weighs the same amount when he was stationary?

mass becomes infinite according to the observer so why and how would the traveller get effected by increased mass and would be stopped from reaching lights speed?

vijay(vijay.rajonline@gmail.com)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.17.44.135 (talk • contribs) (Dishnet DSL Limited; geolocated near Hyderabad, India)

I'd love to respond here, but Wikipedia is not USENET. I advise you to place this query onto the newsgroup sci.phyiscs.relativity. --EMS | Talk 04:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Vijay, it's a bad idea to put your email in a Wikipedia talk page because you are likely to get spammed (the spambots troll through Wikipedia looking for email addresses). If you register as a user, you can set an option which allows other registered users to email you, without knowing your email address. ---CH 06:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Expand the article?

I was dissapointed at the lack of size and depth of this article. I may try to expand it.

Benjaminstewart05 15:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Be careful about this. The last time someone tried to expand it, all that they did was to import large pieces of the special relativity and general relativity articles wholesale. That does not work, since duplicate texts tend to become unsychronized fairly quickly in Wikipedia.
If there is something more that you feel needs to be said about relativity theory as a whole, then feel free to add it. Otherwise, I strongly counsel you to let the specific article on special relativity and general relativity do the in-depth describing of those theories. --EMS | Talk 16:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by optus.com.au anon

An anon using IP 61.88.131.189 (talk · contribs) registered to OPTUS COMMUNICATIONS in North Sydney, New South Wales, Australia tried to insert a silly hoax.---CH 04:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

"Sorcerer"'s call for a "concerted, concentrated and united front"

"Sorcerer"'s post

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.93.135 (talk • contribs)

Hi, 62.56.93.135, yes we know :-/
For others: the cited post (which was crossposted to a half dozen or so UseNet groups) is by someone using the handle "Sorcerer", who also uses the handles "Androcles" and "Hexenmeister", and who recently started to edit the Wikipedia as Der alte Hexenmeister (talk · contribs · block log). The kind of namecalling to which this individual has been prone in Usenet (the cited post is a typical example) would of course not be tolerated at WP, so I am cautiously optimistic that this isn't really anything to worry about too much.---CH 12:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
For others: I have requested the WP board of trustees to have Schaefer blocked from editing, I shall now make the same request for Hillman to be blocked.
Der alte Hexenmeister 00:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hexenmeister/Sorcerer/Androcles, please see WP:DR for a summary of dispute resolution procedures at WP. Note that this and other articles suggest ways to avoid escalation of disputes, which seems reasonable. In that spirit, please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Der alte Hexenmeister. If you add a polite comment at the bottom of Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Der alte Hexenmeister, I will move it to the proper place on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Der alte Hexenmeister; I suggest this because I think you are having some trouble formatting your comments in a way which helps keep talk pages readable. Please see also WP:AGF. TIA ---CH 06:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

merger proposal

The current version of "relativistic mechanics" outright duplicates this article. I will convert it into a redirect to this page now. I cannot see it as being controversial under these circumstances. --EMS | Talk 14:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

2 assumptions for SR => 1?

How about rewriting the end of the section on SR to read:

The great strength of special relativity is that it can be derived from a single premise:
  • The laws of physics are the same in any inertial frame of reference. This means that the laws of physics observed by a hypothetical observer traveling with a relativistic particle must be the same as those observed by an observer who is stationary in the laboratory. In particular both observers see Maxwell's equations (which predict the speed of light to be 299,792,458 meters per second) obeyed; so the speed of light is the same, relative to all inertial observers.

It would make SR seem a lot less mysterious and ad hoc. --Michael C. Price talk 20:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Updated as indicated. Sorry if this clashes with any off-line re-writes in progress. Overwrite as you wish. --Michael C. Price talk 22:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the business of SR being derivable from just one postulate. Technically, this may be true, but it is not common knowledge. Furthermore, you are asking the reader to consider the meaning of Lorentz invariance, which I find less than proper since that is an advanced concept. Ideally, this article should be a breif overview of what the theory of relativity is (or rather what the theories are). --EMS | Talk 01:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
See Talk:Principle_of_relativity#merge_with_theory_of_relativity; this article will probably become a disambiguation page. When the text is ported over to principle of relativity I believe the extra paragraph will make more sense. (BTW not being common knowledge is not a good reason for deletion -- indeed I would have thought that was a good reason for inclusion, since it logically follows from the previous paragraph.) The reader doesn't have to understand lorentz covariance to understand the superiority of a system derived from 1 postulate rather than from 2. I propose that we reinclude it for the moment and take this discussion to the talk:principle of relativity page after the merge above is complete. --Michael C. Price talk 05:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have moved all the material to principle of relativity, in addition making some minor changes: Indian relativity created, link between lorentz covariance in GR and SR clarified. Newtonian mechanics tie in with with Galilean transformation not yet made. This article is now a disambiguation page.--Michael C. Price talk 06:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Vote for deletion

Frankly I don't understand why this article exists at all. There's no such thing as the "theory of relativity". There's a theory of spacetime symmetry called "the special theory of relativity" and a theory of gravity called "the general theory of relativity", but those are inappropriate and misleading names that we're stuck with for historical reasons. The only reason Wikipedia should even have an entry for "theory of relativity" is that it's a term that people use, sloppily, when they should use something more specific.

My proposal:

Agreed. --Michael C. Price talk 13:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. The theory is and will always remain ambiguous, always controversial, although I'd call it "inconsistent".

It is circular and contradictory for Einstein to use the term c+v

 (http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif)

to derive c = (c+v)/(1 + v/c) , "with the help of the equations of transformation developed in § 3"

  (http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img76.gif)

even if he changes "v" to "w" to hide his spoof. (forgot to add signature on previous edit.) Der alte Hexenmeister 23:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Also Galilean invariance = Galilean relativity. But I think there is enough material common to Galileo's and Einstein's x2 relativities to justify it being more than just another disambiguation page. It's possible to speak about the concept of relativity without specifying any theory in particular. (Relativity is a horrible, misleading term, invariance is much better, but that's history.)--Michael C. Price talk 13:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Put information about the theories (like MichaelCPrice's suggestion) in their respective articles.

-- BenRG 12:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure these proposals would help the average person find out more about "the theory of relativity". They might help those who already know a lot about it, but then, they wouldn't be searching to find out more information in the first place. --Dweller 13:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Granted we have to think very carefully about what approach will help the average reader. My suggestion is that we do NOT say that SR rests on the assumption of the constancy of the speed of light to all observers, since it poses the natural question of "why the hell should we assume that". That SR is often presented this way is unfortunate and is probably why the field attracts so many cranks. I suggest that SR be presented as a natural outgrowth of Galilean relativity, extended from mechanics to include electromagnetism. BTW, did Galileo actually write down the Galilean transforms, or did he just enunciate the principle with his "below deck" example? --Michael C. Price talk 13:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment Sorry, I understood your first sentence, but then you lost me, around the point you wrote "My suggestion is that we do NOT say that". Thereafter, you weren't addressing my point at all. And if you were, I didn't understand a word of it. All I'm saying is that people looking for info about this topic will type in "Theory of relativity" or "relativity" and expect an article about Einstein etc. And, guess what, that's what they get currently. --Dweller 14:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, yes I wandered from addressing your point to addressing the issue I raised in the previous section. As for your final comment, yes most people will expect to see an article solely about Einstein when they type in "relativity" -- well time for them to learn something new :-) --Michael C. Price talk 15:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know he just stated the principle. In any case, you've convinced me that the principle of relativity deserves its own article. But it already has one (principle of relativity). So my new proposal is:
-- BenRG 13:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Sounds OK. Be bold! --Michael C. Price talk 15:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what is being achieved with all this. The current Theory of relativity page suits me fine, but I do not want it expanded any more. (I do admit that it is already a effectively a disambiguation page.) As for principle of relativity, we very much need to condense the relativity-related parts of that. I find them to be poorly written and the general relativity related part isn't even correct. My suggestion is to do the merge with Gallilean Invaraince and fix what's there. --EMS | Talk 16:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've made a stab at clarifying the relationship between Galilean, Special and General relativities. See what you think. --Michael C. Price talk 23:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Some more changes completed. Updated the GR intro and pointed Galilean invariance and Galilean relativity together. I think the principle of relativity can now be merged into theory of relativity. --Michael C. Price talk 10:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Relativity is now a straight disambiguation page that refers to primarily special relativity, but also general relativity, galilean relativity and theory of relativity, before listing the non-physical meanings. --Michael C. Price talk 12:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I have undone the redirect. The result is just plain ugly. Someone looking for information on the "theory of relativity" does not care about all of the other uses of the term "relativity". As a short, quick sketch of relativity theory, this is an excellent page. It answer's its question: "What is the theory of relativity"? If you want details, you go to the pages on the individual relativity threories. It may sound silly to you, but as a "semi-disambuguation" page, this works very, very well. --EMS | Talk 14:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
At the cost of maintaining the two pages' subsections in line with each other. They've already diverged. Urghh... We obviously have different ideas of ugliness. --Michael C. Price talk 15:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Theory of relativity is now factually incorrect, since Galilean relativity is a theory of relativity. Granted, most non-physicists are not aware of this, but shouldn't we educate them? --Michael C. Price talk 15:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)