Talk:Theory of everything/Archive 3

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Remove time cube?

Remove time cube. It's not even pseudoscience, it's just pure entertainment, and only belongs in articles on entertainment/humour. It has absolutely nothing to do here. Remove immediately.

The article does not purport to cover only one type of theory. Your anon. POV is an opinion. Wiki is not a filter for certain opinions. The range of human thought is presented, as long as it is respectful. --Blainster 21:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And even sometimes when it's not. siafu 02:28, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So because ONE senile old man has a crackpot theory, and somehow figures out how to post it on the internet, and it becomes popular purely out of mockery, it's somehow encyclopedic? Give me a break. I hope it doesn't get reinserted. Ever. 68.205.78.247 09:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the cube of theories you get when you let G,h,1 / c (Gravitational constant, Plank's constant, Reciprecal of the speed of light) vary between 0 and their finite values should be mentioned. Namely Newton Mechanics when all the constants are assumed to be 0, going through varyous theories, arriving at the TOE when all the constants have their finite values. --SurrealWarrior 8 July 2005 07:09 (UTC)

Interesting

The universe seems to be arranged in hierarchies. There are various levels at which you can understand it. The level we are most famililar with is the level of everyday life. Going down we run into the levels of organs, cells, molecular biology, chemistry. Each level has its own laws which work in certian "special cases" with all violations at the "extreams". Complex Adaptive Swarms exhibit similar layered behavior also, at each layer the swarm is made of smaller complex adaptive systems. This layered behavior doesn't appear in swarms made of simple systems. This all seems to imply that either there is no bottom to the layers of the universe(and no TOE) or, the bottom layer is made of smart, adaptive particles.--SurrealWarrior 01:49, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The bottom layer of particles are smart? Sounds like bogus new age pseudoscience that sometimes is pushed by Art Bell types. But, if you have any references, I'd be interested in reading them. Given my understanding of artificial intelligence, fundamental particles can't possess intelligence because intelligence is made from many component parts. (See Society of Mind). WpZurp 03:21, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
This poor Surreal fellow is spamming identical comments from his talk page (which he is using as a blog) on many different articles, some of them with duplicate entries. Please help to keep an eye on him. --Blainster 14:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Limitations of TOE?

I think these sentences in the Limitations of TOE section lack appropriate evidence:

...the finding of the TOE cannot (dis)prove the existence of a God, gods or other supernatural ultimate being. While it is permissible to have other literary interpretation, it is best to confine it in its subject matters, i.e. physics and other related fields. It would not have much significance to, for instances, phycology and social complexity.

Why is it best to confine a TOE to physics? Is it because it could have religious implications that some people may dislike? And why wouldn't it be significant to other areas as well? We need references here, and until someone finds them, I'm removing these sentences. 04:14, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Amateur Efforts

The recent discussion about "Expansion Theory" highlights the trouble of including a section here on "Amateur" or "Speculative" theories of everything. I certainly agree that such efforts should be mentioned, but I've come to believe that a complete list of them could quickly grow to overwhelm the central content of the article (especially if the list included summaries as the current one does). There are dozens (hundreds?) of these alternative TOEs out there, and as their authors or proponents discover this article they will all want to be included.

Thus, I believe that a better approach would be to move all of these to a separate list somewhere: either to a separate article on amateur TOEs or simply into the physics section in the list of alternative, speculative and disputed theories. The discussion of amateur theories in this article would be limited to something like the current introductory paragraph and a link to the longer list.

Any thoughts?--Steuard 19:41, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think Thar's the best idea since girls. You are absolutely right that the article will get swamped by this if it isn't dealt with now DV8 2XL 19:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I support this proposal. The existing summaries of these theories are of little value. It's not possible to fairly or neutrally describe them within such confines to begin with.Atraxani 21:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Theories of everything must meet the following criteria to justify inclusion:

1) They are explained in a verifiable source (available online or in a published text.)

2) They are of general public interest (have been described in widely circulated publications.)

Therefore it will not be possible for random jackasses to just put their theories on the article. McCutcheon's theory has been described in a published book and reported on in a magazine article; therefore it meets the criteria.

Your attempts to suppress amateur theories of everything are doomed to failure as they are un-Wikipedian.

You would be taken more seriously if you had an account, signed your name, and used less accusatory language. DV8 2XL 20:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

There's a better way to discourage every Wikipedia user's TOE editing whims than saying "What you're thinking has probably already been thought of and is probably wrong." Hopefully I've found it. CleffedUp 05:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

TOE and religion

Religion in general has no clear relationship to a physical Theory of Everything. Most theists believe the universe should operate according to consistent principles because they believe it to have been designed by a good God. Some theists believe no ToE will be found, perhaps because of a desire not to exclude God from the normal workings of the universe. Others speculate that a ToE would provide a new conception of religion. Finally, many expect that a ToE, like modern physics, would be agnostic as it would by definition describe only the universe.

Some theorists believe that a comprehensive ToE will, out of necessity, include information on how the primary creative force relates to the rest of creation.

String Theory as a cult

Gravity theory and Quantum Mechanics are the two pillars of modern physics. A TOE obviously has to encompass the two and resolve any weakness or inconsistency in them. Granted, LQG is still in its infancy, but it shows the unmistakable potential to fulfill the role of the TOE by building a quantum gravity theory based on plausible assumptions. String made some ridiculous assumptions so that the perturbative technique of QFT can be recycled, ending up with a lot of even more ridiculous "predictions". It is highly disingenuous of String people to criticize LQG for its lack of calculated results so far, since slow progress is the expected price to pay for making honest assumptions.

As for the meaning of QM, can anyone really honestly live with either the Copenhagen interpretation (basically, "don't ask, don't tell") or the many world scenario ("reality, what reality?)? The question here is not just about QM but about reality, which is probably the most fundamental question one can ask in physics. If a TOE cannot answer it, what will? If this is not physics, what has Prof. 't Hooft been doing?

Science, or at least Physics as I know it, is all about CYNICAL comparisons between mathematical models and measurable reality of our universe. Since such comparisons have been and will continue to be impossible in the case of String, one should be constantly amazed by the following facts:

1. String followers draw numerous employments and sizable funding from supposedly physics-focused departments and institutions.

2. String people continue to get their papers published in otherwise respectable academic journals on physics.

3. String people label their own creation "Theory" with a capital T and have been successful in co-oping the mass media to propagate the misnomer. This is actually more significant than it would appear to laypeople because, in science, a "Theory" is something that is tested and accepted, as in the case of "Theory of Evolution". This is actually part of the arguments at recent trials regarding Intelligent Design. Luck that the Intelligent Design proponents did not think of citing "String Theory" as a rebuttal.

Talking about Intelligent Design, an interesting comparison exists here. Superficially, there are many similarities between String and ID. Both are faith-based believes that nominally attempt to explain the world. Both are safely tucked away from any foreseeable experimental checks. Both are zealously guarded by their followers who do not care about reality. Yet, deep down, there are significant differences:

1. String inspires new math, not necessarily very interesting in its own right, but interesting enough to mathematicians when it is wrapped in the clothes of a "physics" "theory". It has not occurred to Intelligent Design proponents yet that a little math may be just the magical ingredient for legitimacy.

2. String people are insiders of academia. They work hard to get fellow followers hired. The same people also make sure String papers get published, which in turn justify more hiring, making String a perpetual motion machine. Intelligent Design proponents have no clues how this works.

3. String zealots are motivated by self-interest beginning as young adults. Intelligent Design proponents are driven by doctrines imposed on them during childhood.

4. String has no mature competitors yet, while Intelligent Design (or Creationism) has been on the endangered list since Evolution came out.

I am neither a String disciple nor a LQG pioneer, so I believe my comments are a lot less self-interested as far as TOE is concerned. Unfortunately, String proponents continue to behave as if they are God's chosen people and entitled to censor any suggestion to apply objective, scientific criteria on String. The sad truth is that they remain an insignificant and unproductive minority among Homo Sapiens and that their beloved faith remains just that, a faith and nothing more. At least, LQG followers have the integrity to base their theory on plausible assumptions, however difficult the calculations become. Do String people honestly believe that, at Planck scale, space-time will remain a smooth BACKGROUND and not participate in the dynamics? Maybe they have enough faith to do so, but real scientists do not have to buy it, unless the experiments say otherwise. Before then, String people should refrain from posting self-aggrandizing changes to this article, if they have any human decency left.

You note that you are neither a string theorist nor an LQG expert. So why do you feel so confident in making claims about what "String people" believe about fundamental physics? Of course string theorists don't think that space-time is a background at the Planck scale: the whole point of the Planck scale is that it's the scale at which quantum gravity becomes important. We simply take a different approach to the issue than the LQG folks do: we start with the perturbative regime and work toward an understanding of the non-perturbative, while they do the opposite.
Perhaps when all is said and done the two approaches will turn out to be equivalent. Perhaps diffeomorphism invariance is only an approximate symmetry of nature, and LQG is based on a flawed assumption. Or perhaps the string hypothesis does not correspond to physical reality, despite its mathematical beauty. The point is, we don't know whether any of these possibilities are true, not yet. And until we have some sort of experimental data that addresses them, there is no physical reason to prefer one over the other. So different people pursue different possibilities, based on their own hunches or philosophical preferences. That's a very human process, and one that doesn't deserve your harsh words or accusations of academic dishonesty. But all of this is tangential to what should be in this article, so I will not continue to discuss the merits of string theory with you here.
For this article in particular, the point remains that the main thrust of LQG today has nothing to do with being a TOE as the term is generally used. That's supposed to be a benefit of LQG, not something to be downplayed or disguised. And as for quantum mechanics, both string theory and LQG are by construction theories of quantum gravity (together with many other things, in string theory's case). Understanding quantum weirdness is certainly an important goal for physics, but again, it is orthogonal to the goal of constructing a TOE as the term is generally used. So it doesn't belong here, as far as I can see.--Steuard 15:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


This comment from Steuard is somewhat more rational than the previous one, so I will go into more specifics.
There will not be a point when it "all is said and done", at least not in anyone's grandchildren's lifetimes. Experimentation is not just the only way to verify a theory but also the only way to motivate meaningful conceptual leaps. Since Planck-scale experiments are all but impossible for the next few centuries, any attempt at TOE is ultimately a waste of time.
Efforts in TOE in general and String in particular started out as legitimate physical questions but have grown into a self-sustained monster of a mathematical pursuit for an utterly useless end. As a string follower, you will do well to understand that your contribution to the rest of mankind amounts to little more than the mathematics developed for String, which is rather worthless in itself. Even if you disagree on this point, I don't think there can be any rational objection to a decency standard of asking self-interested parties to recuse themselves from affecting the postings here. (I know. I know. Even the founder of Wiki himself has embellished the reference to himself, but do we have to join in the race to the bottom?)
No one can write an article without injecting his/her own view. At the end of the day, it boils down to your view against mine, or more precisely, a String follower's view vs that of a third party. I think it should be clear from numerous other examples in REAL life that a plaintiff makes a poor judge. Do you really think that the American Umpire calling the Japanese base runner out is a good thing for baseball? Or, being a patriotic American and a pious String disciple, you think the end justifies the means?
As for quantum weirdness, if it is not resolved at Planck scale, where is it going to be resolved then? There are numerous strong hints that QFT itself is an effective theory. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to consider the possibility that the entire quantum theory is an effective theory as well. My definition of TOE is Planck scale physics. If you disagree, please propose something concrete, but I doubt that anyone can come up with something that allows String but none of the others, which seems to be the only goal of your argument. Anyway, have you not noticed the last section of this article titled "Other Efforts"? If Eino Kaila warrants a mention, it is ridiculous to exclude 't Hooft just because you don't appreciate it.
As for my credential, it is a lot more stellar than yours, but you will have to take my words for it because it is not something I like to brag about and ultimately not really relevant to this discussion. What is relevant here is that this is an article about TOE, not String. An objective discussion on TOE has to be written by someone who is NOT feverishly devoted to just one possible candidate for TOE. You can enjoy the companionship of people sharing the faith in the String Gospel at the String page, but acting as a self-appointed thought police everywhere String is mentioned is both inappropriate and offensive. -- User:Duduong March 14
First, your suggestion that the search for a TOE is pointless without access to Planck-scale experiments is one reasonable point of view (even if folks like me hope that we can do better). It might be worth mentioning in the article. That is of course a concern about the general TOE idea, not about string theory in particular. Given that, every scientist working on issues related to this article is by your definition a "self-interested party"; forbidding them all from contributing here seems tantamount to forbidding any expert from contributing to articles on their area of expertise. That's clearly not in the best interests of Wikipedia.
Second, you say that this boils down to "my view against yours". I'd rather see Wikipedia in less hostile terms: "building a consensus article around all mainstream views". To the best of my knowledge, as far as mainstream, developed science is concerned string theory is the only current effort to construct a TOE (whether that effort is misguided, doomed, or whatever). For that reason, I argue that string theory deserves prominent mention in this article. I don't see that as reflecting my personal point of view, I see it as a statement about the current state of mainstream science. If you disagree, let's discuss that (rather than discussing your beliefs about the merits of string theory).
Third, you say that your definition of TOE is "Planck-scale physics". I don't think that such a definition is very similar to what most people mean by the term. In particular, the article says that
"Current mainstream physics concepts require that a TOE unify the four fundamental interactions of nature: gravity, the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, and the electromagnetic force; it should also explain the spectrum of elementary particles."
Your definition does not imply any sort of unification of forces or explanation of the observed particle spectrum. "Planck-scale physics" to me sounds closer to a definition of "quantum gravity" than of TOE. For that matter, "Planck-scale physics" actually implies more than "quantum gravity" does: your phrase assumes a particular scale for quantum gravity, but there are at least a few models out there (often involving "large extra dimensions") in which quantum gravity becomes important at much lower energy scales. I claim that by the definition quoted above, string theory is the only mainstream science effort that qualifies as a TOE, whether one approves of string theory or not. I would also point out that "Planck-scale physics" implies nothing about whether the philosophical issues surrounding quantum mechanics have been resolved.
Fourth, regarding the "Other Efforts" section, you can see earlier on this talk page that I have argued against its inclusion altogether. There are so very many non-mainstream TOE efforts out there that it would be impossible to do them all justice in this article. Any effort to list some of them here will suffer from substantial bias and lead to heated arguments about which ideas merit inclusion. The vast majority of such efforts would also fall afoul of Wikipedia's "no original research" policy. I would prefer for this article to simply mention that many such non-mainstream efforts exist, and then link to an appropriate other article that discusses such things in more depth.
Finally, I'm really not interested in anyone's credentials; I don't think I've raised my own in this discussion at all. I commented on your self-description as someone outside of the string and LQG communities only because it seemed at odds with the certainty with which you seemed to claim to understand what "String people honestly believe". Your summary of what we believe sounded much more like the rough summaries of string theory that I have seen in discussions of LQG in the popular press than like what I have heard practicing string theorists actually say (or what I believe myself).--Steuard 20:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I am glad that we are finally talking about real issues. Many of the views you mentioned are not objectively wrong, just not proven (or provable). I certainly think that stating categorically that String is the ONLY mainstream TOE candidate is something ONLY String followers do, and hence not suitable for inclusion in an article here.
We are in agreement that credentials and background of posters are irrelevant to the debate here. I had to mention that I am no practitioner of either String or LQG to imply my outsider status. It is not germane to use it in your previous argument.
String has developed into a thriving community with many smart people dedicating their lives to it. My point about it not being proper physics is not meant as an insult to their intelligence. Quite the contrary, my issue is that so much good talents should not be wasted on something built on a false or unprovable premise.
Of course, being worked on everyday by so many creative people, String is morphing continuously and adopting new ideas all the time. The fundamental problem is not that String will have difficulties adjusting to new trends or new results (e.g. LHC) but exactly that it is TOO adaptable. Without direct experimental checks, String's adaptability is limited only by human imagination, which makes great arts but not physics.
As for LQG's shortcomings, particular its inability to say anything about the other forces yet, I think everyone can agree that, given its relative immaturity and the difficulty of its math, they are to be expected. Yet, no one can deny that quantum gravity is the hard part for a TOE. Incorporating the standard model is trivial by comparison. String people like to mock LQG's lack of concrete mathematics, but they should be reminded that mathematics is not physics. Having indifinitely many universes should have sounded alarm bells all over. The fact it has not yet can only be attributed to the lack of better things to do for theorists in the past 37 years, but this will change in 2007. In a few decades, some smart young PhD may look back and write a paper on the social underpinning of the String phenomenon, and we will all be wondering how a crazy idea could have wasted the energy of the most talented physicists for over two generations.
I guess my question to you is whether you can point to any statements by leading LQG researchers indicating that they believe that current work on LQG is aimed at developing a TOE? (Not just that they believe that LQG may someday be a part of a TOE: that's very different.) As I said before, most of the discussions of LQG that I remember have said almost the opposite: that one major advantage of LQG is that it should be able to quantize gravity only, without incorporating all of the other forces and the observed particle spectrum. Your claim that LQG is a TOE candidate would seem to undercut what was supposed to be a selling point of the theory. I don't think this is an "inability to say anything about the other forces 'yet'" [emphasis added], and I don't think that many (if any) LQG researchers view these as "shortcomings". If I've fundamentally misunderstood the goal of that field, please do point me in the direction of experts saying so! But otherwise, I really do think that string theory is the only mainstream TOE candidate.--Steuard 15:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
What LQG people are advertising is irrelevant, since they cannot possibly know what the elephant looks like when they are just touching the tail. Let me remind you that a run-down of what String people have advertised over the decades would make Jon Stuart's show look boring in comparison. You are obviously too young to remember how many times String changed its big-picture stories.
As for TOE, defining it as the grand unified theory for the four forces manifests either arrogance or naivity. We do NOT know that there are no other forces. We do NOT know how far up the energy scale QFT can hold. TOE is theory of EVREYTHING, so it should not stop until the Planck scale, thus it should be a synonym of Planck Scale physics.
The quantum weirdness is not a philosophical question. Quantum Mechanics is itself incomplete without a clear understanding of what constitutes reality. The issue has been put off not because it is irrelevant but because it is so old and the solution is so far. Yet, since there is a good chance that the solution resides at Planck Scale, of course the TOE should address it.
Tell me if I have understood you properly: your primary claim appears to be that the usual meaning of "Theory of Everything" (namely, a theory that at a minimum unifies the four known forces and explains the known particle spectrum) is not the best definition for the term. You further seem to assert that although experts in LQG do not believe that it describes anything beyond gravity, they are likely wrong.
If that is accurate, then I would counter that this article is intended to address the usual concept called "TOE", whether that term perfectly describes the concept or not. I would also suggest that Wikipedia defer to the LQG experts' opinion of what their theory describes, unless the number of non-experts who dissent from that opinion becomes notable in its own right.
As for quantum weirdness being a philosophical question, I still claim that it is. "What constitutes reality?" is not a scientific question. A scientific question is "What will be the outcome of a given experiment?" Quantum mechanics, no matter what its interpretation in terms of "reality", gives unambiguous answers to such scientific questions (its answers are probabilistic, but that's not a problem). Because the theory already answers any scientific question we can formulate in its language, the questions about the nature of reality that remain must relate entirely to our interpretation of the theory, not to the science of the theory. And to my mind, that makes them matters of philosophy.--Steuard 00:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say that QM is not self-consistent. I said that it was incomplete. Whether or not there are many parallel universes branching off at every Planck time interval, each being as REAL as any other, is of course a physics question. It only seems philosophical becaues we cannot do Planck scale experiments yet. If this is philosophy, String will automatically be a philosophical pursuit as well, but I would rather think of String as a mathematical plaything that has the potential of being relevant to physics in the very long run. -- Duduong 14:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Duduong edits

You need to obtain consensus from the other editors before placing your opinions into the article. Wikipedia is edited by a community, it is not a free-for-all. If you persist in these actions, you risk sanctions from the community, upto and including being blocked from editing. Please read Neutral Point of View, What Wikipedia is not, and Etiquette. If you can convince the others to accept your changes, well and good. Or if you wish to make non-controversial edits, they are welcome as well. But revert wars will not be tolerated. --Blainster 19:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The key difference in opinions here is that the String people think that String is the ONLY "mainstream" candidate for TOE, while I, as a representative of non-String physicists, disagree. Exactly what do you mean by "community"? String people are a highly-motivated minority that is on a PR campaign to silence all critics in order to save their livelihood. They would appear to be the voice of the "community" to casual observers, but are you argueing that since the original author of this article is a String guy and several other String people continuously police these postings, the majority in science should not bother to make dissenting voice heard?
Actually acording to Brian Greene 9 in 10 physicists are going into QM in particular String Theory. It's becoming pretty mainstream. Einstein spent most of his life searching for the Theory of Everything I think this article should respect that H0riz0n
I am perfectly happy to hear the opinions from the non-String physics community. As for String practitioners, the self-interest is plainly too strong to justify the statement of String being the ONLY mainstream candidate for TOE.
If anyone has real arguments against mentioning 't Hooft's work here, please feel free to post as well. It is certainly more relevant and more valid than at least 80% of the stuff mentioned already in the article.
TINC. siafu 16:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
If you believe that there is another mainstream TOE candidate, please do mention it here. Thus far, LQG has been suggested, but everything I know about that project indicates that it is only intended as a quantum theory of gravity, not as a TOE as defined in the article or as popularly understood. (Please provide expert quotes if you believe I'm wrong on this.) Some recent work by 't Hooft has also been mentioned; I am not familiar with it, but the description here gave me the impression that its goal is to overcome philosophical difficulties with quantum mechanics, not to provide a unified description of the forces and particle spectrum. Thus, it would also not seem to qualify as a TOE as the term is generally used (or as explained in the article). Again, if I have misunderstood the topic of this work, please do clarify it for me! Otherwise, I'm still in the position of seeing string theory as the only mainstream TOE effort, whether one thinks it is a great idea or that it is fundamentally misguided. Are you suggesting that the majority of scientists think that there are other mainstream TOE candidates, or just that the majority of scientists think that string theory isn't worth the fuss?
Oh, and for the record, I rather resent your assertions that I (and others) are on some sort of censorship campaign, or that we're motivated by personal greed that is trumping our scientific integrity. Every string theorist that I've seen talk about these things is genuinely excited about the field and the subject. If we didn't think it was scientifically worth studying, we'd do something else!--Steuard 15:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand. I have taken no position on which opinions are more acceptable. It is the constant reversions that must cease, because they do nothing to improve the article. The community is the editors who work to build the encyclopedia, which is fundamentally a collaborative effort. The Wikipedia principle of Assume good faith is important to remember as you work together. There is a dispute resolution process available if you continue to be unable to resolve your differences. Good luck in finding an acceptable way forward. --Blainster 21:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I am ready to concede anyway. When the fox failed to catch the rabbit, he consoles himself by pointing out that the rabbit was running for its life while he was just running for his lunch. Well, I am just running on a whim here, so those whose livelihood depends on it can definitely have the last words.

Heim Theory Bias

It seems fairly obvious when reading the paragraph on the Heim Theory that the writer had an unabashed bias towards it. It insinuates that the only reason string theory is so popular is that it has garnered so much media attention, and that the Heim theory is actually better. This clearly violates NPOV.

I've just cut the Heim theory bit out of the "mainstream physics" section. Even if Heim were somehow right (I'm pretty convinced that he's not), there is no sense in which Heim theory counts as "mainstream physics" today. I don't see that removing this material from the "mainstream" section could possibly be considered POV: heck, the Heim theory section under "Other efforts" still began with a statement that his ideas were not accepted in the mainstream. (Speaking of which, I've also tried to introduce some neutrality into the discussion of Heim theory in that section. It was altogether too glowing as it stood. I still feel that no specific "Other efforts" should be mentioned here at all, as doing so opens the door to every crackpot under the sun. I'd rather link to such things in a separate article.)--Steuard 20:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent major reorganization

Some aspects of User:Slicky's recent rewrite of the TOE article are quite reasonable. In particular, I like the rearrangement of the introductory material and the addition of an early section discussing the various philosophies behind the search for a TOE (or whether such a thing is even possible).

However, the treatment of individual theories here as the article currently stands is entirely unreasonable. Yes, Wikipedia strives for NPOV, but unfortunately that goal is considerably more subtle than "give every viewpoint equal time and prominence." Articles on the planet Earth do not need to give equal weight to the beliefs of the handful of remaining "flat earth" believers. Articles on the Holocaust do not need to give equal weight to those who deny that it happened (though they may be sufficiently notable as a cultural phenomenon to be mentioned briefly).

The same must hold for Wikipedia's treatment of science. In this article in particular, the topic is a discussion of scientific efforts toward a "theory of everything" (the article now gives a good idea of what that would mean right from the start). As far as mainstream science is concerned, the only major effort in this direction today is string theory/M-theory (whether that effort is considered misguided or not). So what about the other theories currently mentioned in the article?

I personally am not familiar with current work on "Einstein Unified Field Theories", but it is my impression that even if they are part of mainstream physics they are probably not yet sufficiently notable to be mentioned in Wikipedia. I'm happy to be corrected if I've just been unaware of a major effort in that direction, but I have not heard them mentioned by either particle physicists or relativists here at the University of Chicago (mentioned at all, whether positively or negatively). How many people are currently working on these theories? How many of the top 50 physics departments have a group working on the subject?

But when it comes to the theories of Burkhard Heim and his followers, it is completely unreasonable to include those ideas here as anything resembling mainstream physics. Even setting aside the purported validity of Heim's work (I've written at great length here and on various Heim talk pages about that), this theory is absolutely not recognized as legitimate by the mainstream physics community (no matter what a bunch of aerospace engineers have to say about it). If you think that's unfair, I invite anyone at all to find any recognized list of the "top 20 physics departments" and ask the chair of each one whether Heim Theory is considered a valid approach to a TOE within mainstream physics. I guarantee you that the answers will be variations between "No!" and "Who?" (whether those professors are fans or detractors of string theory or any other area of research). It is not much more reasonable to include Heim Theory on a level with String Theory here than it would be to include the Flat Earth idea on a level with the globe.

I have in fact seen only one comment on Heim Theory by a professor in a related field. Sean Carroll of the University of Chicago wrote the following about the Heim Theory paper that won the engineering prize:

"Just so nobody gets too excited — this paper is complete nonsense, not worth spending a minute’s time on. If I find the energy I might post on it, but this is no better than the other hundred crackpot preprints I get in the mail every year."

I would say that the same should apply to Wikipedia. Heim's work is not mainstream physics, and it should not be presented as more notable or promising than it actually is. NPOV is a really, really, hard goal to achieve, especially when proponents of fringe ideas make a push for their inclusion. It's easy to make mistakes. But editing Wikipedia has to involve making choices about what is truly notable and what is truly neutral. The article's current presentation of Heim Theory is neither.


I want to emphasize that although I am a string theorist, my comments here are honestly not some attempt to shoot down potential rivals of string theory. I am a scientist, and for me it is beyond question that string theory like any other scientific theory must succeed or fail on its own merits: PR isn't science. If nothing else, I hope it is clear that I do not consider Heim Theory to be a "threat" to string theory: it's not, not in any sense of the term (not even to the extent that creationism is a "threat" to evolution). And if string theory were "threatened" by some other well-motivated theory, I'd be glad to see it and probably very interested in both efforts.

Finally, why include a "philosophical theories" section here? The article nicely explains from the start that it is discussing the common popular use of the term "theory of everything": a complete unification of the forces and particles in physics. Perhaps a separate article is needed to cover theories from this rather different perspective; they certainly don't sound like the sorts of things that most would identify as science.--Steuard 03:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well stuard then as a scientist you should now that science is an abstraction and a "all but nothing" viewpoint is nothing but mere extremesism that certainly isn`t fruitful considering that science has emerged to it`s current state by revising models/methods, putting others on the backburner ("dumping them"), catching them up for something else where applicable, and making sure the populace gets informed about the scientific methods/works and to make absolutly sure that pseud scientific attempts get treated as such. Sadly this holds so very true for string theory as well, in it`s current form. In the field of maths or theoretical physics it is fine with me and even laudable, but it gets hailed and propagated like it is the second coming of physics and guess what considering fuss and fundings it raises it truly seems to me it is. Sadly reason that the experiment comes first seemed to be diminishing (and be it even just as much as photon-induced conformational changes of retinol = openeing your own eyes). You cannot deny that if the LHC team would be comprised of string theorists alone the would find their answer in the data within weeks, and it sure would be within a month a uniform answer, and so universal that physics would not be needed any more at all.Slicky 05:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

what is the basis for a theory of everything and its implications?

Should there be more discussion in the Theory of Everything article on what are the key underlying insights needed to construct a theory of everything?

I personally believe the structure of physical space holds the key to developing a theory of everything. This is based on the premise that matter, energy, and physical forces themselves are manifestations of spacetime structure. This idea is also present in some, but not all candidates for a theory of everything. So maybe the article could mention that "Many people believe that discovering the underlying structure of physical space (i.e. spacetime) is the key to developing a successful theory of everything."

Maybe a little more focus on spacetime structure and its central role in how candidates for a theory of everything are developed would be interesting. By the way, I particularly like the chart which compares features of string theory, LQG, and Heim theory. It seems to be informative.

Also, would it be useful to point out in the article that so far there is no correlation between the popularity of a candidate for a theory of everything and its ability to make accurate experimental predictions? I think it is widely and incorrectly assumed that if a candidate theory is popular or if it is accepted by part of the mainstream community that somehow the theory is better than other theories. Interestingly, this does not confer any scientific accuracy to the candidate theory. Perhaps the following text could be added: "It is widely believed that professional physicists are the most qualified to develop a theory of everything. While this could be true, one could also argue that a scientist, mathematician, or other person outside of the physics community would be in a good position to develop a theory of everything because they would bring new perspectives to problems physicists have not been able to solve yet."

"There are many interesting unanswered questions about the theory of everything. If a successful theory of everything is developed, will it take years to be accepted? Will the successful theory be immediately heralded in newspapers around the world or will it languish in obscurity because it is too difficult for almost everyone to comprehend? Will the successful theory of everything emerge from the genius work of one person or will it emerge from a large community of researchers? Will development of the theory require a new branch of mathematics, science, or both? Will a theory of everything lead to revolutionary new technologies that impact everyday life or will it have only theoretical applications?"

--Would appreciate feedback on some of these proposed modifications.

One difficulty with including a list of necessary insights is that nobody knows what insights are necessary. We could present various peoples' guesses, but that could easily devolve into violations of NPOV or of the "no original research" policy. Still, a section along those lines could be interesting if done carefully.
As for the chart recently included here, it is entirely out of place. As I've said repeatedly, LQG is not a candidate theory of everything and those actively researching it see that as a virtue. (I've confirmed that impression with a friend of mine whose work is close to that area.) LQG absolutely should not be presented as a TOE here (or included in charts comparing TOEs). And I think I've made my position on Heim Theory quite clear: it's not good physics, and should not be presented as comparable to any mainstream theory.
Finally, I find it astonishing how many people seem to believe that those who have dedicated their lives and careers to studying a subject are somehow not at least likely to be the best qualified people to judge work on that subject. Would you want to live in a skyscraper designed by a dentist who had read up on civil engineering as a hobby? (Particularly if that dentist's notions of engineering principles were completely at odds with what essentially all professional engineers believe?) It's not that the professional engineers have a monopoly on insight and knowledge in their field! But they have learned both from classes and from real-life experience about the many subtleties in their field, and it would be tremendously difficult for someone without that background to equal their expertise. Why wouldn't the same principle hold for physics?--Steuard 13:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Nonmainstream attempts to form a Theory of Everything

Perhaps in order to make the article more neutral, one could create a new Wikipedia article called "Nonmainstream attempts to form a Theory of Everything". The main "Theory of Everything" article could then hyperlink to this article explaining/listing some of the less established TOE ideas like expansion theory, the time cube idea, space mixing theory, process physics, etc.

This would clear up some space in the main article for concentrating on more mainstream ideas while at the same time not eliminating a link to those less-known ideas which many people would find interesting. The idea being that mentioning the less-established ideas is still important for an encyclopedia article in order to inform people of the various ideas that are out there while at the same time not taking up space in the main article discussing these fringe efforts. Those interested could go directly to a separate article which contains information about those theories. TManz

I suggested something similar up in the "Amateur Efforts" section (back when that was the name of the non-mainstream part of the article) and elsewhere on this page. This seems like the best approach to me.--Steuard 20:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Im confused

I thought this topic was what Greene and other physicists described as the ultimate goal of unifying all forces unter one equation... Its what he used in his books... however there is also a unified field theory which is also the concept... I am confused and thus apparently this article is also confused... Sorry for the edits... On retrospect, I think this article should be merged with unified field theory... they are one and the same H0riz0n 05:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC) image

Interesting: I wasn't at all aware of the unified field theory article. (I wonder which term is more popular.) In any case, yes, I agree that the topics of the two articles seem to be the same. Personally, I prefer the term "theory of everything" because "unified field theory" implies that the "ultimate" theory must be a field theory (whether a quantum field theory, a string field theory, or whatever). Given that we don't have a final theory in hand, it seems a bit premature to decide what form it will take. (On the other hand, I do like the history of gradual unifications in physics in the other article; that would be nice to include in whatever we end up with.)--Steuard 20:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that "unified field theory" refers to one specific type of approach to constructing a "theory of everything", while the term "theory of everything" refers to a description of the universe that consistently describes all four fundamental forces (as opposed to a "grand unified theory", which describes everything except gravity). Ask nicely at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics, and you might find someone willing to clean up the relevant articles if this is ambiguous in them. --Christopher Thomas 06:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Exactly as Chris. put it. Although as i suggested in the beginning TOE should be converted to TEO (physics), because in theory, religion is it`s own TOE, it explains everything so successfully apparently that there are billions of people who rather give away most of their brain to god.

It could also be argued rationally whether a TOE is possible at all, or just a unified theory, and if so in the end it is all the same. In fact prolly the only Theory of everything there is, is religion and blind believe. In other words the current state of physics gets unified in a theory whereas a theory of everything can logically not exceed the current state of physics and would rather fall into metascience. However that is only because the term is somewhat a misnomer, it doesn`t really attempt to explain everything and rewrite science but rather to lay out a wider framework than a unified theory does.Slicky 05:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Remove the other efforts

I think the other efforts should be removed and put into differn't(maybe new) article. I think this article should more about mainstream physics.--Scott3 23:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)