Talk:Theophoric name

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Info I have found out from a good source:

  • "Jonathan" does not come from the Greek noun for god.
  • Claiming that Samuel comes from the Sumerian El is speculative.
  • Johnathan is Hebrew, from Yehova. Samuel is Hebrew, from El - the Hebrew word for God.

Can we have some confirmation of this?

I must insist on sources for this article. This information seems to be amazingly wrong. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:13, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This User applied a "disputed factual accuracy" label to the very abbreviated entry (perhaps partly because it was headed Theophory— unnecessarily obscure, a common Wikipedia failing). I've now added some quickly-googled references and removed the label. More generally, there is currently a lot of behind-the-scenes discussion going on at Wikipedia:No original research. Here is a classic case of perfectly commonplace information being challenged, taken for "original research"—"I must insist on sources for this article"—simply because the User is uninformed. "Theophory" was a pretty opaque heading, we'd all agree... --Wetman 02:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Further: "Theoditus" seems to be a misspelled of "Theodotus". - Ta bu shi da yu 14:15, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Another time one might just fix misspellings. Rather than label them "disputed factual accuracy" --Wetman 02:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Jonathan" is indeed Hebrew. It is an Israelite name and a contraction of "Jehonathan" יְהוֹנָתָן listed below; both forms are used interchangeably for the son of King Saul. This name is not directly related to the Semitic god Yaw, who was not worshipped by the Israelites, but is clearly derived from the name of the Israelite God YHWH, i.e. Yahwe, Jehovah or whatever. There may be some link between the names YHWH and Yaw, but no direct link. The same is true for the El name in Samuel, Elizabeth etc; although El was a Canaanite deity, for the Israelites who used these names El was simply one of the words they used to refer to their one God. Peterkirk 14:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Theophoric Names starting with "Yeho"

A new section has been added to the Wikipedia Article:Theophoric Names.

The title of the section is:

Theophoric Names starting with "Yeho"

Seeker02421 11:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


The table below shows Theophoric names starting with "Yeho". B-Hebrew transcriptions have been added to this Table, that are not shown in the Table in the Article

Except for the column marked "B-Hebrew", the Data in this table below,
can be found in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 1890 Edition.
Seeker02421 23:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[ Note! Hebrew reads from right to left ]

Strong's # Hebrew word
Strong's
Strong's Definition
B-Hebrew
KJV Translation
3059
יְהוֹאָחָז
Yehow'achaz
Jehovah-seized
Y:HOW)FXFZ
Jehoachaz
3060
יְהוֹאָשׁ
Yehow'ash
Jehovah-fired
Y:HOW)F$
Jehoash
3075
יְהוֹזָבָד
Yehowzabad
Jehovah-endowed
Y:HOWZFBFD
Jehozabad
3076
יְהוֹחָנָן
Yehowchanan
Jehovah-favored
Y:HOWXFNFN
Jehochanan
3077
יְהוֹיָדָע
Yehowyada
Jehovah-known
Y:HOWYFDF(
Jehojada
3078
יְהוֹיָכִינ
Yehowyakiyn
Jehovah will establish
Y:HOWYFKIYN
Jehojakin
3079
יְהוֹיָקִימ
Yehowyaqiym
Jehovah-will raise
Y:HOWYFQIYM
Jehojakim
3080
יְהוֹיָרִיב
Yehowyariyb
Jehovah will contend
Y:HOWYFRIYB
Jehojarib
3082
יְהוֹנָדָב
Yehownadab
Jehovah-largessed
Y:HOWNFDFB
Jehonadab
3083
יְהוֹנָתָן
Yehownathan
Jehovah-given
Y:HOWNF+FN
Jehonathan
3085
יְהוֹעַדָּה
Yehow'addah
Jehovah-adorned
Y:HOW(AD.FH
Jehoaddah
3086
יְהוֹעַדִּין
Yehow'addiyn
Jehovah-pleased
Y:HOW(AD.IYN
Jehoaddin
3087
יְהוֹצָדָק
Yehowtsadaq
Jehovah-righted
Y:HOWFDFQ
Jehotsadak
3088
יְהוֹרָם
Yehowram
Jehovah-raised
Y:HOWRFM
Jehoram
3089
יְהוֹשֶׁבַע
Yehowsheba'
Jehovah-sworn
Y:HOW$EBA(
Jehosheba
3091
יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
Yehowshu'a
Jehovah-saved
Y:HOW$U(A
Jehoshua
3092
יְהוֹשָׁפָט
Yehowshaphat
Jehovah-judged
Y:HOW$FPF
Jehoshaphat

Seeker02421 01:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Theophoric Names starting with "Yeho" [Reformated]

The table below is a reformated version of the table found in Section #1.

The Data in this table below, can be found in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 1890 Edition.
Seeker02421 23:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Seeker02421 23:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[ Note! Hebrew reads from right to left ]

Strong's # Hebrew word
Transliteration
Added יְהוֹ [i.e. Yeho(w)] to:
KJV Translation
3059
יְהוֹאָחָז
Yehow'achaz
Hebrew word # 270 / אָחַז [i.e. 'achaz]
Jehoachaz
3060
יְהוֹאָשׁ
Yehow'ash
(perhaps)word # 784 / אֵשׁ [i.e. 'esh]
Jehoash
3075
יְהוֹזָבָד
Yehowzabad
Hebrew word # 2064 / זָבַד [i.e. zabad]
Jehozabad
3076
יְהוֹחָנָן
Yehowchanan
Hebrew word # 2603 / כָנַן [i.e. chanan]
Jehochanan
3077
יְהוֹיָדָע
Yehowyada
Hebrew word # 3045 / יָדַע [i.e. yada]
Jehojada
3078
יְהוֹיָכִינ
Yehowyakiyn
Hebrew word # 3559 / כּוּן [i.e. kuyn]
Jehojakin
3079
יְהוֹיָקִימ
Yehowyaqiym
Hebrew word # 6965 / קוּם [i.e. quwm]
Jehojakim
3080
יְהוֹיָרִיב
Yehowyariyb
Hebrew word # 7378 / רִיב [i.e. riyb]
Jehojarib
3082
יְהוֹנָדָב
Yehownadab
Hebrew word # 5068 / נָדַב [i.e. nadab]
Jehonadab
3083
יְהוֹנָתָן
Yehownathan
Hebrew word # 5414 / נָתַן [i.e. nathan]
Jehonathan
3085
יְהוֹעַדָּה
Yehow'addah
Hebrew word # 5710 / עָדָה [i.e. 'adah]
Jehoaddah
3086
יְהוֹעַדִּין
Yehow'addiyn
Hebrew word # 5727 / עָדַן [i.e. 'adan]
Jehoaddin
3087
יְהוֹצָדָק
Yehowtsadaq
Hebrew word # 6663 / צָדַק [i.e. tsadaq]
Jehotsadak
3088
יְהוֹרָם
Yehowram
Hebrew word # 7311 / רוּם [i.e. ruym]
Jehoram
3089
יְהוֹשֶׁבַע
Yehowsheba'
Hebrew word # 7650 / שָׁבַע [i.e. shaba]
Jehosheba
3091
יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
Yehowshu'a
Hebrew word # 3467 / יָשַׁע [i.e.yasha]
Jehoshua
3091new
יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
Yehowshu'a
Hebrew word # 1954 / הוֹשֵׁעַ [i.e. howshea]
Jehoshua
3092
יְהוֹשָׁפָט
Yehowshaphat
Hebrew word # 8199 / שָׁפַט [i.e. shaphat]
Jehoshaphat

Seeker02421 23:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can Theophoric Names be derived from "YaHWeH"?

In section # 5 of the Wikipedia Article:Theophoric Names, three scholarly sources are quoted as saying that theophoric names can be derived from "YaHWeH".

The question being raised here:
Can it be shown that theophoric names can be derived from YaHWeH?

[edit] Can Nethaniah be derived from YaHWeH?

_____________________________________________________________________
Second attempt to derive Nethaniah by compounding YaHWeH with Nathan
_____________________________________________________________________
Does יַהְוֶה [i.e. YaHWeH] added as a suffix to נָתַן [i.e. Nathan] = נְתַנְיָה [ i.e. Nethaniah ]?

Nethaniah [ i.e. נְתַנְיָה ] is found at 2 Kings 25:23 in the NIV Interliniar Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as "Nethaniah"
James Strong designates נְתַנְיָה as Hebrew Word # 5418.
James Strong transliterates נְתַנְיָה as Nethanyah

1. I added the suffix יַהְוֶה [ i.e. YaH:WeH ] to נָתַן‎ [ i.e. Nathan ].

I ended up with יַהְוֶה + נָתַן = [ Nathan + yah:weh ]


2. I now changed the "Nun Sofeet" to a regular Nun with a silent shewa under it.

I ended up with יַהְוֶה + נָתַנְ = נָתַנְיַהְוֶה = [Nathan:yah:weh]


3. I assumed that the qamets under the first nun in Nathan reduces to a shewa.

I now ended up with נְתַנְיַהְוֶה = [Nethan:yah:weh]


4. I now dropped the "segol heh" which left the waw as a consonant:

I now ended up with נְתַנְיַהְו = [Nethan:yah:w]


5. At this point can the "waw" be deleted, and then can the silent shewa under the heh be deleted, which means that we would end up with נְתַנְיַה = [Nethan:yah]
However is there a Hebrew grammar rule that will now require that the patah under the yod be changed to a qamets?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The following text was found at YHWHgroup ּYHWH:

>>>

So can anyone explain how Y'ho- could come from Yahweh?


Here is the answer Koehler/Baumgartner
(Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden 1985)
gives:
"'Yahweh' at the end of a word is shortened into 'yaw' (...) and this,
'w' being a semi-vocalic consonant, is stressed as '-yahu',
this shortened to 'ya-' (...).
Note! If יַהְוֶה [i.e. YaH:WeH] had been יַהוּהַּ [e.g. YaHuWaH], the process would have been more straight forward.
One source that was quoted on b-hebrew claimed that יַהוּהַּ [e.g. YaHuWaH], could be derived from "Iaoue" ?????
Note" It seems more likely that יַהוּהַּ [e.g. YaHuWaH], could have been derived from "Iaoua".


At the beginning of a word 'yahu' looses its stress becoming 'yehu-',
which, by dissimilation of the vowel, becomes 'yeho-',
this, by elision of 'h' becomes 'yo';
thus: 'Yahunatan' becomes 'Yehunatan' becomes 'Yehonatan' becomes 'Yonatan' (...).
Preceding a syllable with 'u',
'yo' turns into 'ye' [pronounce 'yay'], as in: 'Yeshua'."
(words between square brackets are mine)

>>>

___________________________________________________________________________________

Adding the suffix יַהְוֶה [i.e. YaHWeH] to נָתַן [i.e. Nathan]


"'Yahweh' at the end of a word is shortened into 'yaw' (...) and this,
'w' being a semi-vocalic consonant, is stressed as '-yahu',
this shortened to 'ya-' (...)."


____________________________________________________________________________________

Using the italicized text above as a guide
[see the full text at the beginning of this section],
the question being asked is:


Does יַהְוֶה [i.e. YaHWeH] added as a suffix to נָתַן [i.e. Nathan] = נְתַנְיָה [ i.e. Nethaniah ]?

Nethaniah [ i.e. נְתַנְיָה ] is found at 2 Kings 25:23 in the NIV Interliniar Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as "Nethaniah"
James Strong designates נְתַנְיָה as Hebrew Word # 5418.
James Strong transliterates נְתַנְיָה as Nethanyah


  • Going in steps according to the above italicized text,
we would seem to first get נְתַנְיָו [i.e. Nethanyaw].
    1. Note that the qamets that was originally under the 1st nun in נָתַן [i.e. Nathan] has been reduced to a simple shewa.
    2. Note that the 2nd nun [ i.e. nun sofeet ] in נָתַן [i.e. Nathan] has been changed to a regular nun.
    3. Note that a silent shewa is now found under this 2nd nun, as during the compounding process, a yod now follows the 2nd nun. This silent shewa is being used as a syllable divider.
    4. "YaHWeH" has now been shortened to "Yaw". HOW??? WHY???
      1. Note that both "heh's and the segol" are now missing from "YaHWeH", yet the "waw" remains. WHY???


  • Continuing according to the above italicized text,
the next step requires that the waw in "Yaw" be stressed as "Yahu",
and it would seem that we might get נְתַנְיָהוּ [ i.e. Nethanyahu ].
    1. Note that this required that the first heh in "YaHWeH", removed earlier, be replaced, and the "waw" is now changed to a "shureq" WHY???


  • Again going by the italicized text above,
after shortening "YaHWeH" first to "Yaw",
[by deleting both "heh"'s and the "segol"]
the removed 1st heh is then re-inserted,
and the "waw" in "Yahw" is now changed to a "shureq".
which changes "Yahw" to "Yahu",
and the italicized text notes that "Yahu" is then shortened to "Ya-"


  • Additional italicized text says:
At the beginning of a word, 'yahu' looses its stress, becoming 'yehu-',
which, by dissimilation of the vowel, becomes 'yeho-',
this, by elision of 'h' becomes 'yo';
  • Thus: 'Yahunatan' becomes 'Yehunatan' becomes 'Yehonatan' becomes 'Yonatan' (...).



Nethaniah [ i.e. נְתַנְיָה‎ ] is found at 2 Kings 25:23 in the NIV Interliniar Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as "Nethaniah"
James Strong designates נְתַנְיָה‎ as Hebrew Word # 5418.
James Strong transliterates נְתַנְיָה‎ as Nethanyah


יַהְוֶ

Going in steps according to the above italicized text, we would seem to first get נְתַנְיָו‎ [i.e. Nethanyaw].


In the next subsection, Christian Ginsburg's explanation for why Theophoric names prefixed with "Jeho" were altered and became Theophoric names prefixed with "Jo" will be presented.

[edit] "Yeho" prefixes changed to "Yo" prefixes

In the table in section 3.1 of the Wikipedia Article:Theophoric Names it should be noted that 13 Theophoric names with "Yeho" prefixes have corresponding forms [in bold type] in which the letters "e" and "h" have been omitted.

In Scott Jones' Article:"Jehovah", it states:

In the 19th century a converted Jew and Masoretic scholar, Christian Ginsburg, undertook a detailed study of the Masoretic text. In this study, he traced the pedigree of the Scriptures and noted how the Jewish guardians of the Hebrew text took safeguards in order to make sure the Tetragrammaton was not accidentally pronounced at the wrong time or by the wrong people or in the wrong place -
"There are, however, a number of compound names in the Bible into the composition of which three out of the four letters of the Incommunicable Name have entered. Moreover, these letters which begin the names in question are actually pointed (יְהוֹ) Jeho, as the Tetragrammaton itself and hence in a pause at the reading of the first part of the name it sounded as if the reader was pronouncing the Ineffable Name. To guard against it an attempt was made by a certain school of redactors of the text to omit the letter He so that the first part of the names in question has been altered from Jeho ( יְהוֹ) into Jo ( יוֹ)."
Christian Ginsburg, Introduction To the Massoretico-Critical Edition Of The Hebrew Bible, p 369.

[edit] Can Yehownathan be derived from YaHWeH?

___________________________________________________________________________________

Adding the prefix יַהְוֶה [i.e. YaHWeH] to נָתַן [i.e. Nathan]


"'Yahweh' at the end of a word is shortened into 'yaw' (...) and this,
'w' being a semi-vocalic consonant, is stressed as '-yahu',
this shortened to 'ya-' (...)."


At the beginning of a word 'yahu' looses its stress becoming 'yehu-',
which, by dissimilation of the vowel, becomes 'yeho-',
this, by elision of 'h' becomes 'yo';
thus: 'Yahunatan' becomes 'Yehunatan' becomes 'Yehonatan' becomes 'Yonatan' (...).


____________________________________________________________________________________

Using the italicized text above as a guide
the question being asked is:

Can Yehownathan be derived from YaHWeH?
Or in other words,
Can יְהוֹנָתָן, be derived from יַהְוֶה?

Does נָתַן [i.e. Nathan] prefixed with יַהְוֶה [i.e. YaHWeH] = יְהוֹנָתָן [ i.e. Yehownathan ].

Yehownathan [ i.e. יְהוֹנָתָן ], is found at Samuel 14:6 in The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament where it is translated as Jonathan
James Strong designates יְהוֹנָתָן as Hebrew Word #3083.
James Strong transliterates יְהוֹנָתָן as Yehownathan.


Does יְהוֹנָתָן = יַהְוֶה + נָתַן?

The assumption is being made here, that many of the changes that were seen to occur in Section # 2.1 of these discussions will also occur here. [The next four sentences are speculative.]

  1. If יַהְוֶה [ i.e. Yahweh ] at the beginning of a theophoric name shortens to יָו [ i.e. Yaw ] we might expect to first get יַונָתַן
  1. Note that both "heh" 's and the "segol" and the "silent shewa" are missing from the prefixed יַהְוֶה— only יַו remains.
  2. For the moment נָתַן remains intact, but the finalized theophoric name יְהוֹנָתָן ends up with a "qamets" under the "taw".
  3. Does "Yaw" once again have to change to "Yahu" and then loose its stress and become "Yeho"?
What rules would change the "patah" under the "taw" into a "qamets"?

_____________________________________________________________________________________

[edit] Over-emphasis on theophoric names in Hebrew

This article seems to be about the concept of theophoric names across multiple religions but more than 75% of it is about theophoric names in Hebrew. How about creating an article titled Theophoric names in Hebrew and moving most of the text in this article to that new article? That would restore the balance in this article of discussion of theophoric names in other religions. --Richard 22:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Samuel

The 'translation/meaning' of the bible name Samuel is stated as being "his name is El" i.e. 'his name is God'. Surely this is incorrect! --Lepton6 (talk) 12:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)