Talk:Theodore Beza

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[edit] quote

Here is a telling quote attributed to Theodore Beza: It belongs to the church of God to receive blows rather than to inflict them -- but, she is an anvil that has worn out many hammers. --Theodore of Beza 1561 to King Charles IX of France

[edit] Citation for sodomy claim

I contend that this sentence:

For hundreds of years afterwards Catholic opponents would hold this work against Beza in particular and against Calvinists in general as a defense of sodomy and proof of moral failing, conferring upon it an importance otherwise unwarranted.

needs a citation. Haiduc says that adequate reference can be found in the notes here. That page is in Italian. My Italian is so weak as to be practically non-existent at this point, but Babelfish gives an approximate idea of what the notes say. Still, it doesn't seem that any reliable source is given for that claim, and all such claims should be verifiable, preferably in English (cf. Wikipedia:Verifiability#English-language_sources and WP:RS#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English). Can anyone supply an English language, reliable source on the matter? --Flex (talk|contribs) 21:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Dall'Ortohimself is an authority, and if you look further, on this page you will find further information. At any rate, as a historian who has contributed to the works that he has, has credibility and authority to be quoted for this encylopaedia. Haiduc 23:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps he himself is good enough (again, my Italian is pretty weak), but it is still much preferred to have sources in English for verifiability. Can you supply one? --Flex (talk|contribs) 13:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

A quick check of "Beza" + "sodomy" yields this: "English Writers and Beza's Latin Epigrams: The Uses and Abuses of Poetry" by Anne Lake Prescott in Studies in the Renaissance, Vol. 21, 1974 (1974), pp. 83-117, wherein we find "In his section on Beza he shows how he 'did practise the most execrable Sinne of Sodomy, and therein led the way to other Sodomiticall persons'..." (partial quote, all I could get off the web without access to the JSTOR archive). There seem to be other leads, but please excuse me if I do not run them down. Haiduc 01:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm less concerned about the claim that Beza was or was not bi/gay than about the claim that Catholic opponents held the poem against him and Calvinists for hundreds of years. --Flex (talk|contribs) 19:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Dall'Orto makes a case that there was a running battle between the Catholics and the Calvinists, and that Beza and DellaCasa were dragged into the polemic, apparently both on spurious charges (it is a long way from a poem about a kiss to actual sodomy). But having found a credible and thorough source I can bring no further corroboration. Why are you doubtful? Haiduc 21:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Dall'Orto makes the claim in passing in a footnote that is in Italian and has no sources cited. That's not "making a case." I just want a reliable source (preferably in English) for that statement. If it's commonly accepted, then it should be easy to find a source. --Flex (talk|contribs) 22:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Check this out, from Dynes' Encyclopaedia of Homosexuality. Haiduc 22:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent, that seems to fit the bill. Thanks! --Flex (talk|contribs) 23:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a citation and an additional quote from the EOH, though I don't think we can link to it the PDF because of copyright issues. --Flex (talk|contribs) 00:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I was going to add the list of original sources in the bibliography of the article, but perhaps it is best to leave it as is. But why do you say that it would infringe copyright to link to the pdf?! That is the first I hear of it. Haiduc 01:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Re linking: I'm thinking particularly of #1 under WP:EL#Restrictions_on_linking. It may be that that scan of the EOH is indeed legit, but I question it (note the copyright info at the very bottom of this page). --Flex (talk|contribs) 15:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] text origin, possible copy-vio

This is probably one of the older articles on Wikipedia (from 2002). The textual style of this thing seems to be a little odd, as if it was taken from an old source from the early 20th or late 19th century, say an old encyclopedia, etc. Does anyone know anything about this? If it is, it needs to be credited or if it's under copyright, replaced . --Lendorien 17:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It is already credited to Schaff-Herzog at the bottom. --Flex (talk|contribs) 18:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Blarg! I didn't even see that. Color me embarassed! :D Thanks for pointing it out. --Lendorien 19:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intext citations desperately needed

This is a great article, but there's practically no sourcing at all in this thing. An effort should be made to do so. --Lendorien 17:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

One source for intext citations would be Phillip Schaff's History of the Christian Church (written in the 1890's), volume 8. He speaks extensively about Beza. Full text transcription here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc8.titlepage.html - Beza's dealt with specifically in Chapter 19 here: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch19.htm#_edn1 . I believe some text here might come from it, but it ashould still be cited.

Another possible source is this scholarly essay from the publication Pro Rege [1]: http://www.dordt.edu/publications/pro_rege/crcpi/119158.pdf

Also worth a look is the Google Books full text search for Theodore Beza at: http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Theodore+Beza%22&btnG=Search+Books&as_brr=1 --Lendorien 19:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)