Talk:Themes of The Lord of the Rings
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This article was nominated for deletion on 19/9/2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
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[edit] Can we make a definite statement?
In the current version of the article, it is states that Frodo is Christ, but this statement cannot be backed up, and it needs to be emphasized more that Tolkien did not intend this allegorically. Wouldn't it be better to say that some believe Frodo to represent Christ? --queso man 19:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Negative themes grossly ignored
J.R.R. used strong racial and religious ideas in his work. There are numerous parallels to Islam and Mordor, Aryanism and the Elves, and Perhaps the Most noteworthy Homoerotisms. All these things may draw from sources in his Biography as well, like his fear of spiders. None of this is discussed here.
http://www.crossroad.to/text/responses/archive/rings1.htm http://www.capalert.com/capreports/lotr-towers.htm http://www.plymouth.edu/library/opac/record/1326930
- You're grossly distorting and generalizing. See Tolkien and racism. Uthanc 03:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
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- Excuse me, but that last link is about a book with a very positive few of the trilogy. --queso man 19:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Possible theme
Tolkien opposed to Pacifism through representation of the Ents. Its not until Merry and Pipin convince them with a argument that mimics Tolkien's feelings on the Christian pacifists that would not support the Allied actions of WWI.
[edit] Over-simplifying
The initial form of this article is over-simplifying things and is misleading on several points. Also, it would be courteous to the author of the book to start from themes in the book. Themes that appear only in one or more of the adaptations should not be mentioned here, but treated in a separate article. Thanks. Carcharoth 12:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Over-simplifications also in the part about conservatism. For also women had an important role (Theoden's niece) and "Africans" were not depicted as evil (See Faramir's comments on the southern attacers)
[edit] Suggest Move
Would anyone mind if I moved the page title to Themes in The Lord of the Rings as opposed to the current quotes? SorryGuy 14:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- I thought that was a bit strange as well. Not sure what the style is. Let's try looking here at pages beginning with "Themes". Right, well, it looks like "no quotes" is the style, so yeah, go ahead and move it. Carcharoth 19:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Frodo's hesitation to destroy the ring
The discussion about Frodo where he decides not to destroy the ring after all, is sort of the "last tempatation". Even though he succumbs to the temptation, obviously the mission is accomplished and the ring is destroyed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 171.159.64.10 (talk) 19:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Need Sources
A lot of this article seems like original research. Are there any sources to back this stuff up? Ccm043 14:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there anybody who has sources for these themes? This article has been put up for deletion before but people were okay with keeping it up if somebody cleaned it up. Does anybody have any sources for these themes? Ccm043 04:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Don't delete this page...just improve it
This page has previously been nominated for deletion, and I would like to beg that that never happen again. Yes it is lacking in sources; however, if any one person can see relevance in the material on this page then it is useful.
I think perhaps the nature of the article should be changed so that people writing essays on the books can look on this page for a vast array of different themes. I myself can think of at least another three (relationship between Rohan and Gondor, Hope, The Shire), but I have no evidence to prove that they really are themes. Therefore, with the community's agreement, I would have it that we add themes until we totally exhaust our creativity, and if there are no sources, so be it.
0-Jenny-0 14:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Christ figures?
I suggest the section on Christ figures as a theme be drastically shortened, as it seems to violate both neutrality and original research. The section makes too many links between events in the story and specific Bible extracts, drawing conclusions that are the opinions of the editors and almost certainly not those of Tolkien, given his attitude to bare-faced allegory (even if he was Catholic). Ottery St Catchpole 20:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Speaking as a Christian and ardent aficionado of Tolkien's works, I concur completely. There is strong indication of Messianic qualities in the books (Tolkien wrote that Lord of the Rings was a fundamentally Catholic work) but Tolkien also disliked direct allegory. There are too many specific conclusions inferred from the work that cannot be independently backed up by Tolkien. DaveLoneRanger (talk) 06:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
The tension builds between two positions Tolkien himself explicitly said. In the preface to the book, he stated his dislike to allegory "in all its forms". However, this follows immediately his response to some allegations about LotR being some sort of a secular political manifest. (i.e. some readers tried to find allegorical connections with WWII) I therefore think that his "dislike to allegory" doesn't mean that LotR shouldn't be tried to be analyzed. JRR also described his work to be specificly Roman Catholic, as DaveLoneAvenger already stated. The tension between these two positions can be sustained, but one must understand what "allegory" means. At least Tolkien's close friend C. S. Lewis made a clear distinction between "myth" and "allegory". Tolkien would call his creative process "myhtopoeia", or being a "sub-creator". Taking Tolkien's work allegorically does not do justice to it. However, I must stress that also entirely denying all "hidden meanings" in it would be a mistake too, since that would definitely "flatten" the story. However, just bluntly claiming that "Frodo represents Christ" or even "Frodo is Christ" is perhaps not saying 'too much', more like 'saying it wrong'. - Esko; 18 January 2008
[edit] Neutrality and original research
I'm not sure how this page could not have original research, or be neutral. Even if you cite another work, unless it is specifically from J.R.R.Tolkien, it is simply the opinion of whoever wrote the cited work. Therefore, it would also include "biased" material. If, to some people, Frodo represents Christ, then he does, for them. No one is obligated to agree. Even if Tolkien denied that the Ring represents "the Bomb," the text still can be interpreted that way, by some people. If you feel that the page is not balanced, then add an alternative, don't try to delete a legitimate interpretation simply because you disagree. Thematic analysis is almost always opinion. That is its gift and its doom.
LCExpress 15:59, 02 November 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose the article may verge on OR but I found it very interesting and Wiki is better for it's presence in my opinion. Well done to whoever wrote it. SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 19:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
