Talk:The empire on which the sun never sets

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[edit] Quotation

I realise it's important to include many references in an encyclopedia. However, on the basis that an equal-length background for the other (arguably more important) references is absent, I think the horribly inaccurate quotation (no wonder they're so confused) ought to be trimmed to more moderate proportions. Wiki-Ed 12:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeh, it was me who fiound that quotation, but I'm not attached to it. You are welcome to delete the first two sentences, or replace it completely if you know a better quote. Though as you say, balancing it with more would be better than replacing it. --Doric Loon 18:36, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm. To be honest it's just something that irritates me and make me feel like petulantly editing it eg: (I can't edit the first section... it has too many historical errors to make any sense).


[edit] Amusing variants

These have been removed from the article, presumably because they seemed trivial. The first one is just fun, but the second was intended to have political comment, so perhaps I should save them here for anyone interested.

  • From a student's exam paper: "The sun never sets on the British Empire because the British Empire is in the east and the sun sets in the west."
  • A remark by Princeton professor Duncan Spaeth: "I know why the sun never sets on the British Empire: God wouldn't trust an Englishman in the dark."

--Doric Loon 10:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

    • The second one should be restored to the article. Unlike the first one (which is merely a stunningly dumb statement, with zero value beyond entertainment), the second one is a common and well known rejoinder and quick criticism of British foreign policy. For the same reasons that articles about humans must include relevant criticism of that human, articles about phrases should include criticisms of that phrase. --M@rēino 20:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, no real objection there. What does concern me, though, is that we have two different ascriptions: your source relates it to Colvin R. de Silva, but the other source (which was also taken off the internet) relates it to a much older American source. Unless this can be clarified, possibly the name needs to be suppressed; it is possible that Colvin R. de Silva just reused a smart phrase coined by someone earlier; possibly Duncan Spaeth did too. What I don't quite understand is why you deleted a sentence in order to add this new one. You have left the impression that this phrase was a response to Shaftsbury. Perhaps it ought to be further down. --Doric Loon 11:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish

Hold on: looking at the last comment in the edit summary about what sounds best in Spanish leaves me worried. Did you folks just translate that phrase into Spanish? That is not legitimate. You have to quote the actual form used historically, or else not give Spanish at all! --Doric Loon 12:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American empire

I suppose Doric Loon is right that my paragraphy on how the sun sets on America is irrelevant to the article. By that same argument, the preceding paragraph would also be considered irrelevant. The article is of the phrase, not of empires. Besides not being properly referenced, the remarks are also rather redundant. In the current global economy, plenty of countries can claim that the sun never sets on "properties owned by their government or citizens" or their military bases. The USA retains little jurisdiction over these areas and they can hardly be considered part of an American empire. If it is a cultural empire we are talking about, then the use of this geographical phrase is completely irrelevant. It is best we keep this article relevant to the historical usage of the phrase, perhaps with interesting information on countries on whose sovereign territory the sun does not set. Kraikk 12:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree. Empires are about sovereign territory (at least that's what various empire pages on Wikipedia describe) and not "empires of the mind". However, the problem is that the article that has been quoted is trying to make use of the phrase in a different way and that's why it has been included. Wiki-Ed 13:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I do think we want to avoid any evaluation of the American presence around the world - there are other articles, like American Empire which can discuss that. As far as this article is concerned, the focus should really be on Spain and Britain, but with a pointer to the fact that this politically potent language has been taken into American usage too. Plenty of other countries MIGHT be able to claim it, but all that is relevant for this article is who has actually done so. And not whether they were right, or in what sense. I realise that is defining the scope of the article very narrowly, but I suspect if you follow those related topics further you will just be duplicating what other articles do better. (If we WERE to pursue this, my own opinion would be that American is not an empire, but its role in the world has a lot more similarities to that of the former British Empire than most Americans would feel comfortable with. But you see my point - that's controversial stuff, not material we can touch on briefly, and there is an article already which gives a carefully balanced account of all of this.) --Doric Loon 21:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. I suggest removing the entire paragraph on the America. Whether it is an empire is thoroughly discussed elsewhere. Its relevance to "the sun does not set" is confined to one minor reference with a lot of caveats in a casual history that is neither impressive nor relevant. Leave American hegemony to that article, and we should confine this article to historically notable references to this phrase. Kraikk 15:30 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted your change, because I don't think it can stand just like that, but that doesn't mean I am entirely against it. I do think the transference of politically loaded language is highly significant, so I wouldn't want to leave America out of it; after all, it belongs in the context of other transfers (pax Americana etc). The transference of the language is independent of the question of whether America is imperialist (many who talk about pax Americana do so without an empire concept in mind), so I would resist raising that at all. I would be happy to see the American paragraph shortened, but if we take the quote out of the text, it needs to become a reference. If you REALLY want to make the blindingly obvious comment that the quote can only apply to American sphere of influence and not to American sovereign territory then OK, but I think that is almost insulting the readers' intelligence. --Doric Loon 16:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

However I accept your criticism that this whole thing is based on one quote of questionable importance. Can we agree, though, that if we can find significant other examples, then the American connection should stay? For starters I would point to the book by Joseph Gerson, The Sun Never Sets: Confronting the Network of Foreign U.S. Military Bases, and any number of reviews and discussions of it which can be found easily by googling. I have also read the phrase in literature hostile to America (Arab journalism) or critical of American policies (liberal American journalism) and I think I remember having heard it used proudly by a militaristic right-wing American speaker, but we will have to do some work to get verifiable quotes. But meanwhile, Grearson and the Reader's Companion can stand as examples of use by people whose views on American power are negatively and positive respectively; that's enough to establish that both sides are using this. --Doric Loon 17:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a reference to an American company, a publishing house, "upon whose world-wide offices the sun never sets". And here's another - Dow chemicals. And here's a discussion of political writings from way back in the 1890s which "boasted" that "the sun never sets on Uncle Sam". --Doric Loon 17:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's what might be thought of as a transitional usage refering to both UK and US, from 1852! "To Britain and America God has granted the possession of the new world; and because the sun never sets upon our religion, our language and our arts..." --Doric Loon 17:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, although perhaps not as clearly as I could have done, it should stay. However much the use of the phrase may offend various sensibilities, it should be noted (here in this article) that it is used in this way. I think the references Doric Loon has come up with are sufficient support for this. Wiki-Ed 11:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Given the wealth of references you have provided perhaps now the reference to the Reader's Companion within the article becomes rather limited and less useful. My suggestion now is that these references be summarised to show that there is notable usage of the phrase. Reading the paragraph again, it may appear that the Reader's Companion is the main or only proponent of such usage. I suggest moving the references including that to the Reader's Companion to the bibliography and keeping the article more general. If there is no objection I will give it a shot when I find the time. Kraikk 14:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Go for it! --Doric Loon 18:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've tried to work the cites in. I think this dynamic flexibility of usage is fascinating, and the contemporary use is particularly important, so we do want to cover this. Several people have tried to delete this section, either because it wasn't well enough referenced or because they didn't like the idea politically. The first problem is now removed, and I will assume future deletions are the second, and will simply revert them. But the section can certainly be improved, so please fiddle with it. --Doric Loon 16:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but I find this following passage highly debatable: "One recent textbook expanded: "Today ... the sun never sets on American territory, properties owned by the U.S. government and its citizens, American armed forces abroad, or countries that conduct their affairs within limits largely defined by American power". By this logic my own extended family is an empire on which the sun never sets, merely by living or owning property in a few strategically placed countries. It also gives a far too wide a definition of the meaning of the phrase. For example where would we draw the line: Norway for instance, by virtue of its territories in both the northern and southern polar regions, always has some daylight somewhere. China because of its extremely wide-spread diaspora of immigrants (and therefore culture) could possibly fit into that vague textbook definition cited above. I think that the phrase "the Empire on which the Sun never sets" should really be restricted to its historical context (from what I gather Spanish and British empires) and not so much on either its literal or far-fetched interpretations. Jarby 13:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


No, this article is about the phrase and the way it has been used in political and other discourse as a way of expressing aspects of national identity or criticising foreign policy. The article is not about how it COULD be used, and therefore there should be no mention of France or the Netherlands here - I would delete that. The original context is Spain. It was borrowed into actual use in the context of Britain. It was borrowed again in the context of America. Those are the stages in the history of the phrase. Now if you can show that it is is being applied (repeatedly and consistently, not just by one joker) with respect to China, then we should include that, but not just because it theoretically could be. That seems to me to be a pretty clear-cut dividing line. --Doric Loon 10:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted the propaganda for American warcrimes. There should be millions of words added to this article before this information may have a small place (under the sun).--Daanschr 13:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
And I have reinstated it. That was sheer vandalism. You can't just delete a section without getting a consensus. And since you are obviously not even trying to disguise the fact that you are politically motivated, you will never get a consensus. The section is on the development of the concept in the American context. It is not pro-American propaganda. Nor is it critical of America (though the concept it charts may be). This is an unbiased account of the way different parties use the same phrase. --Doric Loon 14:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Keeping this section is a political act as well. You jump into conclusions if you think that a consensus can never be reached.
The fact that this information is mentioned alone is pro-American propaganda.It is biased to my opinion, because (to repeat myself) millions of words should be added to this article before this information may have a small place.--Daanschr 15:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Counting pros and cons for the deletion of this paragraph: pro Daanschr, Kraikk, Jarby; con Doric Loon, Wiki-Ed. I think Jarby makes a good point.--Daanschr 15:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I think you misread the above sections: Kraikk was persuaded by Doric's references and Jarby does not appear to exist. Which leaves just you. Wiki-Ed 16:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Jarby does exist. I still believe the section on America is warpropaganda for the American nazi-stalinists.--Daanschr 16:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Perhaps you could find some references to support that. Wiki-Ed 20:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

A reference for the existence of Jarby can be found by pushing on the name Jarby. I don't know how many edits he or she made. A reference to my claim that the data on America is obscure and should be added after a million words have been added to the article is impossible. For this issue, the NPOV-rule is more appropriate instead of trying to find references. Wether sources are abscure or not is a question of debate.--Daanschr 07:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Although I happen to disagree with the assertion that the US has an "empire", it is not obscure. This article is about the use of a term and regardless of your opinion on the matter, it has been applied to the US - the references prove this. Even if there were any sources to support your claim that the article is being used as a soapbox for "nazi-stalinist" "warpropaganda" it would be irrelevant: NPOV means expressing the balance, not deleting material that you believe to be offensive to your personal sensibilities. Wiki-Ed 09:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You are wrong with your claim that this article is a soapbox for "nazi-stalinist" warpropaganda. My exact phrase was that the section on America is warpropaganda for the American nazi-stalinists, so not nazi-stalinists in general. You are wrong about personal sensibilities, i merely stated the fact that the particular section is used for warpropaganda for the American nazi-stalinists.
In regard of the balance. There is a multitude of information to make this article far larger than it is now. Given this multitude, it would be good and the right thing to do, to delete the obscure information about America. Perhaps a new article can be made on the subject of America in relationship to an empire on which the sun never sets.--Daanschr 10:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

You (not me) asserted that the article is being used in a particular way because a particular section says something it does not. And this assertion is not a "fact", it is your personal opinion which has no source and no relevance to an encyclopedia. Also, the information on America is not "obscure", I wonder if this is the word you meant to use? Wiki-Ed 13:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

That is all your opinion.--Daanschr 13:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Lol. No it's based on what you've written. Or do you mean the content of the article, which is the opinion of the sources cited? Wiki-Ed 17:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
What you write is your opinion. Sources have no opinions, they are an amalgam of opinions of people. I have to agree that i am fooling around a little bit. Need to spend more time on my final paper. Hope the economy doesn't collapse before i got a job.--Daanschr 18:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, isn't this a profound and intelligent discussion. Daanschr: if you have nothing concrete to say, you'd be best to drop this. --Doric Loon 09:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

You sound a little agitated, Doric. Everything allright with you?--Daanschr 10:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, cool man! --Doric Loon 14:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I do exist. I have never bothered editing anything on Wikipedia as I only use it to read, at least for the time being. I merely added my above comment because, having an avid interest in history, already knew of the "Sun never sets..." phrase, and found the idea that the sun never sets on the citizens, posessions and military bases a rather vague concept. As someone pointed out above, this applies to most countries one way or another. As it happens I was (vaguely) satisfied with the response which is why I never bothered bringing it up again, but for the record: yes I do exist. ~~Jarby~~

[edit] Maps

Revert history:

  1. 20:53, 8 June 2007 Wiki-Ed (Talk | contribs) (6,414 bytes) (Removed first two maps (which included terra incognita and oceans) in favour of third.)
  2. 16:40, 9 June 2007 The Ogre (Talk | contribs) (6,961 bytes) (rv - Why? That does not seem a sufficient reason for rm information!)
  3. 17:28, 9 June 2007 Wiki-Ed (Talk | contribs) m (6,414 bytes) (Undid revision 137055257 by The Ogre (talk) Because they're inaccurate and misleading? That's a perfectly good reason)

The Ogre 17:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

A number of maps seem to have crept into this article over time, some of which have been inaccurate - in particular the one of the Portugese Empire which included the oceans and the Spanish one which included lands that were never even visited. The combined map seems to include the correct territory for both. This article is about empires on which the sun never set - it should not include land that was not part of the empires mentioned. Wiki-Ed 16:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello Wiki-Ed! I have to disagree with you on the innacuray of the maps of the Portuguese Empire and the Spanish Empire, they have been the object of lenghty discussions on their respective talk pages (and associate ones). So I believe, along with many others, that the maps are accurate anachronous maps of those empires. Notice that the blue sea areas in the Portuguese map do not state that they belonged to Portugal (even if for a while there was a Mare clausum policy) - it is stated that those waters were "main sea explorations, routes and areas of inluence.", which is quite different! I am not going to revert you, however. I am going to ask for a third opinion. Thanks! The Ogre 17:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Asked for a third opinion stating: Talk:The_empire_on_which_the_sun_never_sets#Maps: Disagreement about the inclusion of maps of the Portuguese Empire and the Spanish Empire (for full maps see version [1]. 17:55, 9 June 2007 (UTC). The Ogre 17:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

After looking over everything, I would suggest taking any concerns about inaccuracies to each image's talk page. After resolving that, it can be decided whether or not to keep the maps. Also, some of the maps may be better used in a gallery, rather than lining the side of the page. Wrad 20:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

A gallery would probably be good in any case. However, I feel that maps on this page should be showing territories that were actually ruled by those empires so it is clear to the reader how the phrase is applicable. Therefore they can be retrospectively accurate and should not reflect ambitious contemporary claims (e.g. Amazonia before it was even explored). The British Empire map does not include claimed areas such as western Greenland (cf. contemporary image on BE article) or Antartica. I appreciate this might not necessarily be what editors want to show on the actual articles for the Spanish and Portugese empires but this is a different article. I am not an expert by any means, but the (current) top map appears to be more realistic and informative for the purposes of this article. Wiki-Ed 22:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Why do we have these maps anyway? The article is about the catchphrase, which has been used of the Spanish and British empires and the American sphere of influence. Maps of those three things would be great. But we don't have one of the American sphere of influence, and instead have maps of (and references to) French, Portuguese and Dutch imperial history, none of which is relevant here. If we want a history of world empires, there must surely be a more suitable article to house these maps. --Doric Loon 14:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] The empire on which the sun never sets

why doesn't the article mention what is the meaning of The empire on which the sun never sets itself?

That's exactly what i thought. One could easily take it literally and don't understand the irony. and still, it's like an article describing various type of houses without explain first what a house itself is. --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 02:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)