Talk:The Whiffenpoofs

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please don't take this as a troll or flame bait, but at Georgia Tech, we have a Glee Club whose student organization charter dates back to 1906, having never been suspended. Doesn't this seem to conflict with the Whiffenpoof's claim to being "the oldest collegiate singing group in the nation"?

For that matter, Glee Club lists several groups who date back to the 1850's or so, some of which have been in continuous operation. Bigpeteb 17:31, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article actually refers to the Whiffenpoofs as the oldest collegiate a cappella group, which can be considered a different type of group than a glee club. A glee club is essentially a chorus and usually quite large, and they often sing to musical accompaniment. An a cappella group is generally smaller (no more than 20 people and usually around 8-12), with more complicated arrangements and absolutely no accompaniment, although some more modern groups often (to the horror of purists) feature vocal percussion and other human-made sound effects.

Incidentally, the Whiffenpoofs themselves were originally formed as the varsity quartet of the Yale Glee Club. --Gstevens99 19:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Within the Collegiate A Cappella movement, the Whiffenpoofs are recognized as the earliest group. There are many collegiate Glee Clubs that are older. Glee Clubs are usually large 30-80 person choruses while A Cappella singing groups have 10-20 members. Mileage 05:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)mileage

Should we, perhaps, post the text of (either here, or on a seperate article) The Whiffenpoof Song?

"We are poor little lambs who have lost their way. Baa. Baa. Baa." --Wetman 01:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

A mass of deletions or AfDsis currently taking place of articles about a capella groups, such as the Yale Baker's Dozen. Singing groups with no references other than their own and university sites have generally been deleted. This group is famous enough to probably survive an AfD, but I added two independent references which talk about this group, as opposed to a passing reference or a directory listing stating that they will perform at such and such a place. It is better to demonstrate notabiility and meeting of WP:MUSIC than to have to do a lot of hand waving when it comes up for deletion review. Edison 17:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Good move, and yes, I agree that The Whiffenpoofs passes notability in contrast to most other college a cappella groups. Pan Dan 17:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

At some point in the future, I think we should remove the material that can only be verified on their website. Pan Dan 17:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the notability guidelines are off here. In terms of music alone, no collegiate a cappella singing group would qualify, including the Whiffenpoofs, venerable as they are. Ditto in terms of public notability. These groups are all largely insular to the college environs, alums, and patrons. They perform mostly at private functions with arrangements of songs often generated from within. It seems to me that the music notability guidelines are mostly for professional, commercial, and/or historically culturally significant groups and music. These are, after all, students. As for independent sources -- how many independent, non-college-related sources can there possibly be for a student singing group? Yes, the Whiffenpoofs will show a few feature articles from time to time in press sources, as will other groups (news items about events such as the Hasty Pudding Woman of the Year, etc.), but the main sources for group information will necessarily tend to be from the group's (and the respective college's) websites. I'm not sure how you can possibly hew to tougher standards without nuking all of these groups.

That said, I believe the Whiffenpoofs (and other collegiate a cappella groups of some stability and history) should indeed be included in Wikipedia because they are a vital part of collegiate Americana. Perhaps their inclusion should be determined on the basis that they reflect an aspect of college life. Now, that would argue for a blanket piece on college a cappella, but does it merit inclusion of individual groups? I'm not sure. What would the "notability" requirement be? A few filler pieces in a city newspaper? Google hits? I'm not sure much a critical distinction can be made between the Whiffenpoofs, the Nassoons, the Medibempsters, etc. -- most of whom rely, let's face it, on the oddness of their names for part of their publicity! Perhaps the notability of the college should determine -- i.e., if the college itself is deemed worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, and the group can claim to be an integral part of the college's identity (longevity would be the factor here, as well as the group's inclusion in the college's website/literature), then it passes? Just a thought. Longevity would have to play a part, to be sure; one aspect of these groups' notability is biographical -- i.e., many of their alums have gone on to their own notability and cite the groups as important in their lives. I just wonder at the wisdom of applying strict musical notability guidelines to what are student college organizations. --Brothomeethees (talk) 19:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is indeed a stub, as it neglects to mention that for most of its history up until very recently (and I'm not even sure about now but I hope not) the Whiffenpoofs were also very much a party/drinking club and the Whiffenpoof Song is a drinking song. When I was a grad student at Yale in 1978 I saw one of their performances and while they might not literally have been drunk they made an act of seeming so. Mory's is or was a glorified tavern.66.155.140.40 23:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The Whiffenpoof Song is renowned among people of a certain age. The Whiffenpoofs generate enough cash to fly themselves literally around the world every year. A few of the songs that were written by members of the group while they were undergraduates have been adopted by other a cappella groups in tribute to them (e.g., Bob Birge's "Time after Time"). The group will shortly be 100 years old. I don't see how on earth it's possible to debate whether or not they are notable enough for inclusion in an encyclopedia.

For that matter, Mory's is famous as well. A Google search on either "Whiffenpoofs" or "Mory's" will turn up countless citations. Instead of complaining that these kinds of groups aren't worthy of the Wikipedia, why not add citations to what you call stubs? Mileage 05:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)mileage

[edit] Bright College Days

Tom Lehrer used some of the words of the song in his parody of college nostalgia songs: "To the tables down at Mory's, wherever that may be" and "we'll ... cheat on the exams, and we'll pass, and be forgotten with the rest." Did he use any of the tune? —Tamfang 05:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)