Talk:The West Wing

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[edit] Redirect

If this just redirects to The West Wing (TV series), shouldn't that article be moved back to this name? -- Chuq (talk) 12:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Top-secret military space shuttle

I am not convinced that removing my minor contribution as "rv speculation" is the correct way ahead. The addition I made was :

", a possible allusion to the persistent Blackstar / Aurora / TR3 rumours"

This seems a reasonable addition to aid readers in understanding the likely back-story. I am very tempted to restore this, noting that no one "owns" a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_articles). Bill Martin 20:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. Nobody is claiming ownership of the page. However, the rules are that we cannot add our own guesswork to Wikipedia. That constitutes original research. Allow me to note that your addition said that the military space shuttle was a "possible" allusion to the Blackstar rumors and that you just noted above that your addition was meant to help readers understand the "likely" back-story. The reason why I emphasize "possible" and "likely" is to show how what you're adding is not an established fact but rather your guess as to what the military shuttle alludes to (if anything). Now, it certainly might be a good guess. However, Wikipedia is a publisher of fact, not hypotheses. As such, your edit was reverted. Now, if you can find a source from one of the writers or producers of The West Wing saying that this was indeed an allusion to the Blackstar rumors, then please cite the source and then feel free to add this back. However, unless such a source is found, your addition is only guesswork. --Hnsampat 23:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Bill if you are satisifed with Hnsampat's answer then fair enough. If you disagree then I'm sorry to say Wikipedia policy was perfectly enunciated in that response. Mark83 23:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Whilst I agree there is no obvious canonical reference from West Wing sources to Blackstar being the issue under discussion, in this case I still feel that this is a borderline case for being deleted under the original research Policy, since it is a "nested unknown": if the mention of Blackstar here is not permitted, then logically neither should the Blackstar pages themselves be, since they encapsulate speculation and hearsay. As these latter pages do indeed form an existence proof of the permissibility of this (widely-accepted) speculation within Wikipedia, then by extension a cross-reference to them from a fiction series (where anyone aware of the Blackstar rumour will have automatically made the connection - as a number of Blogs do indeed attest) does not seem unreasonable - indeed, it could be argued that this "guarded reference" in the West Wing, without being specific about a (non-confirmed!) name, is similar to the dramatic convention at one time in law enforcement dramas of alluding to The Mafia by a variety of euphemism or even gestures (e.g. the bent nose gesture).Bill Martin 11:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Rather than being "a borderline case for being deleted under the original research Policy" your argument simply goes on to confirm that it is very much original research to suggest "a possible allusion." As Hnsampat said "what you're adding is not an established fact but rather your guess as to what the military shuttle alludes to (if anything)" - and as such the term "possible allusion" is extremely unencyclopedic. Also, whether the Blackstar article is complete garbage or a featured article is not relevant in this instance, rather it is your assertion of a possible allusion to the subject of that article. The fact that you invoke what bloggers are saying further weakens your argument in my opinion. Mark83 13:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, rumors of military space vehicles have been in existence since the beginning of the space age. There's no reason to believe that The West Wing is referring specifically to Blackstar. It could be referring to any of a number of rumored military space vehicles. It is merely our guesswork that the reference is to Blackstar and not something else. --Hnsampat 15:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Given the time context, I think the Blackstar link is likely. Nonetheless, I don't think it's worth any more of any of our time discussing this further. NRN.Bill Martin 19:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned the timing. Note that the Blackstar article indicates that Aviation Week first reported on the possible existence of Blackstar in March 2006. However, the military space shuttle is introduced at the end of season 6 of the show i.e. in March 2005, a full year earlier. Unless the producers and writers of The West Wing knew about Blackstar (presuming that it's real) a full year before Aviation Week reported on it, then I think this rules out the possibility of Blackstar being the source for The West Wing's military shuttle. --Hnsampat 22:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Aviation Week was hardly the first place that the Aurora / Blackstar / TR3 issues came up, but as this page seems to attract such a surprising degree of zealousness in content policing (an interesting inversion of the subject's status as a work of fiction) I propose we let the Blackstar topic drop.-- Bill Martin 07:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Very well, but please don't accuse me of "content policing." To quote something Toby once said to Sam on The West Wing, "It's not that I'm not listening or that I'm not understanding; I'm doing both at the same time. I am disagreeing with you, Sam." Likewise, I am not "content policing"; I am disagreeing with you. I have acted in good faith this entire time and it was not appropriate for you to accuse me of "content policing" (just as it was inappropriate at the beginning of this discussion for you to accuse me of claiming ownership on this article). I'm sorry if you were disappointed that if this discussion did not go in your favor, but please don't make such accusations. I just wanted to say that much. And yes, let's drop the issue now. --Hnsampat 11:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real World Events- Iraq?

I posted a paragraph to the Exploration of Real World Issues section comparing similarites between Bartlet's military interventions in Kazakhstan and Palestine and Bush's invasion of Iraq, which was deleted because of the former being peacekeeping and the latter being a war of choice. Here's what I wrote:

The 2003 Iraq War also did not occur in The West Wing continuity, but two American military involvements in sixth and seventh seasons did seem to draw some similarites to the invasion of Iraq and the controversy surrounding it. At the beginning of season six, Bartlet deploys a force of 18,000 American troops (along with 2,000 European troops) to Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as part of a peace deal struck between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Some characters in the show voice concerns about President Bartlet deploying American troops in the hostile Middle East on a long-term basis with no clear exit strategy, criticisms that intensify when the first American soldier is killed there. In the seventh season, Bartlet deploys around 130,000 troops to Kazakhstan in order to prevent a war there between Russia and China over Kazakhstani oil supplies and to establish a democratic government. Bartlet is again criticized for making a long-term commitment with no clear exit strategy and for attempting to introduce democracy to an unstable state with little history of it. The criticisms of both missions parallel criticisms of the Bush Administration over the handling of the Iraq war.

I realise the differences, but there does seem to be some similarities and so it may be intended to be very loosely based on Iraq. The mentions of the lack of an exit strategies seems particularly relevant. Anyone else agree? If not I'll drop this. EJB341 20:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree (to others: I was the one who removed the passage). Primarily because the link between criticisms of the Iraq War and criticisms in the show is unproven and is thus original research. However even putting that to one side - to take the Kazakhstan story for example; Bartlet actually berates the Defense Secretary for doing his job badly, i.e. not planning for cold weather combat. That shows a considered approach. In contrast I think its fair to say that it is a widely held view now that planning of post-invasion Iraq was spectacularly inept. Mark83 20:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Part of what The West Wing does, however, is to take real-world events and then re-imagine them in the context of how Josiah Bartlet (an ideal president) would handle them. So, to that end, I do believe that Kazakhstan and the Middle East stuff are meant to be fictionalized, re-imagined versions of Iraq. However, I do agree with Mark83 that this whole matter is original research and so we should probably leave this out of the article. --Hnsampat 22:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gerald Ford

OK, if the last mentioned real life president in the West Wing was Richard Nixon, can't we then infer that Gerald Ford came afterwards just like he did in real life? --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 10:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really, because, using that logic, we could then infer that Carter came after that and then Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and then Bush Jr. And then, there'd be no room for you, Mr. President. :) --Hnsampat 14:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
(Bush the Elder and Bush the Younger are NOT Senior and Junior as they do not share the same name. Similar, but not the same.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.79.62.16 (talk) 06:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Umm...using that logic, no you wouldn't, actually. I only mention that because Ford was his vice president and since Nixon obviously resigned in the West Wing timeline, Ford would be president. How the election of 1976 went, if it went, is anyone's guess. --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 16:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know, the show never actually mentions Nixon's resignation. It only mentions Nixon by name at some point. Even if it does mention Nixon's resignation, that doesn't necessarily mean that Gerald Ford took over. In the West Wing universe, Nixon's VP could have been Owen Lassiter for all we know. --Hnsampat 19:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Can't it be assumed that Nixon was pretty much Nixon unless the show specifies otherwise? --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 08:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
No, it can't. Since we're dealing with a fictional work, we really should presume that it is different from our universe unless stated otherwise. And even if Nixon was Nixon, there's no telling whether or not Gerald Ford was his successor in the West Wing universe. The whole point is somewhat mute, though. Since the show never states whether or not Gerald Ford was President in the West Wing universe, we can only speculate, and speculation is original research.--Hnsampat 14:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeesh...alright. Sorry. --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 09:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Please understand that I wasn't trying to squash your opinion. I do, however, disagree with the notion that mentioning Nixon automatically implies that Ford also exists in the West Wing universe.--Hnsampat 20:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References to other Sorkin works

I will agree with Hnsampat [1] that this section isn't particularly appropriate. Not only is the section completely unreferenced, it really doesn't add much to the article aside from trivia. And they're not even references to other works -- they're just originally researched parallels and coincidences. At most, we should only have a brief mention that there are a few parallels, like we do in the "Evolution" section. Anything more is overemphasized trivia. -- RG2 22:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to agree with you on the same grounds. This page should be about the West Wing itself, not unrelated stuff mentioned in the context of the show. Should we discuss deletion? --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 22:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I'll just remove the section now. -- RG2 22:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Awesome. --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 19:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Clinton Does Exist in the West Wing Universe

In the episode about the DEA agents in Columbia, Clinton's picture is hanging on the wall in the Situation room. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.191.242 (talk) 15:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure it's Clinton? I'll have to check that out. --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 19:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps Bill was President Bartlet's favourite saxophonist?ColourSarge 13:59, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoken Wikipedia

I saw the request by Philip Stevens and I've begun recording the most recent version of the article, as edited by Hnsampat. Looking at the page history, it looks like any major issues have been sorted out and the article is pretty stable. This will be my first recording for the Spoken Wikipedia project, so of course I'm open to any suggestions or constructive criticism. Jjacobsmeyer (talk) 22:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The spoken version claims the show "is currently in its seventh season," implying the show is still running. The last episode was shown on May 14, 2006. --Mbenzdabest (talk) 20:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Qumar, Equatorial Kundu

Content from the above two articles has been merged into this article per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Equatorial Kundu. Neıl ☎ 11:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't the two more extensive Qumar and Kundu articles be worked into a seperate List of fictional places in The West Wing article, as previously suggested? It would be along the lines of the List of fictional places in Yes Minister article. The San Andreo article could also be merged into that, along with brief mentions of the Sahelise Republic and Hartsfield's Landing (NH) and any other fictional places that have come up. EJB341 (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The "Sahilese Republic" was mentioned only once as far as I know, and that, too, only in passing. No real information exists about it. Not much has been said about San Andreo or Hartsfield's Landing either, even though entire episodes did focus on them, except that the former is supposed to represent a "typical" nuclear power plant in California and the latter is a fictional version to Hart's Location. Basically, there's not enough information out there about the handful of fictional places mentioned on The West Wing to justify a separate article. Qumar and Equatorial Kundu played some more prominent roles in several story arcs and so they are more significant fictional places than any of these others. The information about Qumar and Equatorial has been incorporated rather nicely into the current article. There is no need for a separate article. --Hnsampat (talk) 23:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I suppose. But we should still defenitely merge the San Andreo article into the domestic section then, something like this;

Fictional locations inside the United States have been created to loosely represent certain places. ====San Andreo==== '''San Andreo''' is a fictional [[California|Californian]] city. It is located near to [[San Diego]]. has a population of 42,000 and is the location of the San Andreo Nuclear Generating Station. The city's title, Spanish for [[St. Andrew]], seems to be an attempt at an ambiguously Californian locale, due to the prevalence of Spanish place names in the region. A near [[meltdown]] at the nuclear plant becomes the focus of an [[October surprise]] for Republican nominee [[Arnold Vinick|Senator Arnold Vinick]] during the [[The West Wing presidential election, 2006|2006 presidential election]], due to Vinick's strong pro-nuclear stance and revelations of his active lobbying for the construction of the plant. This was seen to be a key factor in Vinick's narrow defeat in the election by Democratic nominee [[Matt Santos|Congressman Matt Santos]]. And if you want to add Hartsfield... ====Hartsfield's Landing==== '''[[Hartsfield's Landing]]''' is a town in New Hamsphire. It is stated to be a very small community of only 63 people, of whom 42 are registered voters, that votes at one minute past twelve on the day of the [[New Hampshire primary]], hours before the rest of the state, and has accurately predicted the winner of every [[United States presidential election|presidential election]] since [[William Howard Taft]] in [[United States presidential election, 1908|1908]]. It is based on the true New Hampshire communities of [[Hart's Location, New Hampshire|Hart's Location]] and [[Dixville Notch, New Hampshire|Dixville Notch]], which in real life do vote before the rest of the state during the primaries. EJB341 (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. (By the way I put the "nowiki" command around your comments above, just so it wouldn't create a huge section here. :) )--Hnsampat (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Cool, I'll add them then. I'm not sure on how tol merge/delete articles, so you might want to go do that to the seperate San Andreo article once I've added it under here. EJB341 (talk) 12:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Once you've added the relevant information from those smaller articles into the main one, all you have to do is change the smaller articles into redirects to the main one. So, for San Andreo, just delete all of the text on that page and add the following: #REDIRECT [[The West Wing]] --Hnsampat (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Done. Neıl ☎ 14:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline skew

I added a note in the timeline skew section commenting how the fact that the Republicans had the White House for eight years prior to Bartlet is a bit incongruous with the statement that Ashland has been Chief Justice for twelve years at some point in Bartlet's second term (i.e., he first was appointed chief at some point during a Republican presidency), as this seems like a continuity error and a point worth noting, but this was unceremoniously removed without explanation. Any reason why this shouldn't be in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.177.90.3 (talk) 21:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for contributing. However, that constitutes original research, which is why it was removed. --Hnsampat (talk) 23:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] 2006 Election

I have always assumed Santos was always meant to win the 2006 election, agreeing with John Wells account ahead of Lawrence O'Donnell's. At the start of series 7, when now ex-President Bartlett is awaiting for the incoming President to arrive at the dedication of his Presidential Library, its Josh Lyman who arrives to inform the group that the President has arrived. Given that Lyman is running the Santos Campaign, it can be assumed that Lyman would be a significant figure in the Santos administration and therefore likely to be informing that President Santos has arrived. This section was aired before John Spencer's death. (Also Leo McGarry's absence from this scene can be explained by him now being Vice President in the original filming, as surely if it was supposed to be President Vinnick then surely McGarry would be present at the gathering.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markymark74 (talk • contribs) 12:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

No dice, homey. The writers themselves have stated that Vinick was originally slated to win the election, but with the death of John Spencer, the writers felt that it was really messed up to lose his running mate and the election in the same day. --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States (talk) 20:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I have heard (though I don't know how reliable the source is) that Wells contradicts the writers and says that Santos was always slated to win, and that the writers are therefore "misleading" the viewers (i.e. lying). I'm somewhat inclined to believe him. Even before the episode showing the winner aired, I always predicted a Santos win based on how much the series had focused on him (and comparatively much less on Vinick) as well as the general tone of the episodes. But, that's just my hunch. And, of course, until we get a reliable source quoting Wells as contradicting the writers, we go with what the writers say. --Hnsampat (talk) 21:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sam Seaborn's second position

Didn't Sam get a 2nd position after he lost in California? It was said when Toby convinced Jed to hire Will as Toby's Deputy. Osfan1011 (talk) 01:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The show doesn't make it clear that Sam lost in California. The line of dialogue that you're talking about is from "Inauguration: Over There" and is equally ambiguous. It's not enough for us to go on to say that Sam actually had some kind of position in the White House after being Deputy Communications Director. The fact that we never see him again until the 7th season implies that he left the White House at that point. --Hnsampat (talk) 02:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I've seen literally episode several times. The way I see it, he doesn't get another position until the Santos White House, in which it appears that he is given the roll of Deputy Chief of Staff, but this isn't even entirely certain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.32.227 (talk) 21:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
In "Inauguration: Over There" it is clearly stated that Sam has no hope of winning his election. Thata doesn't neceesarily mean he didn't; however if he had won it he would still be an incumbent when Josh approaches him in season 7 (which he clearly isn't). However it's all irrelevant as his 'second position' is obviously irrelevant to the show and so we don't need to record it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Camera style

When talking about the long tracking shot I think we should make explicit mention of the huge long tracking of Leo that opens the first episode. Any objections? DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

None here, that type of thing became one of the trademarks of the show, the opening scene was no accident 76.182.32.227 (talk) 14:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If you watch the scene a little more closely, it's not at all the single tracking shot that our memory gives it credit for being. While Leo is in continuous motion, there are numerous edits.Claude (talk) 03:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] West Wing as a Teaching Tool

Would it be inappropriate to add a column to the table of main characters listing their modern day real-world counterparts in the White House? This would help people watching the show to relate the duties of the fictional White House with those of the present-day non-fictional one.

What say ye? 167.230.38.115 (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that doing that might inadvertently imply more of a correlation than we want it to imply. It might imply that the character is similar in personality or in influence to the real-life counterpart. Besides, I think the fact that we have wikilinked to articles about the positions is sufficient. --Hnsampat (talk) 21:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)