Talk:The Troubles

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[edit] Minor edit

Number of fatally wounded changed from 14 to 13. The 14th died 4 1/2 months later, with the wounds he recieved possibly contributing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.67.186 (talk) 10:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict box

Who was it that edited and destroyed the conflict box I made? Please restore it. There was nothing wrong with it in the first place!! - Ireland4Ever

[edit] Removed from text

This needs work. The nature of such violence and the relations of the various groups and their motives and tactics needs to be charted in detail. Though violence in whatever form it takes is terrible, there is a difference between defensive military activity and knowingly targeting innocent civilians e.g. the "Real" IRA's killings at Omagh, or Bloody Sunday. -- 20 October 2002 user:DanKeshet

[edit] unattributed quote

in Nationalist or Republican political parties, 2/3 through the article, the phrase "insight into the thinking of" is in quotes, but the passive voice of described avoids attributing the quote, which is fairly significant. Although i know very little of Irish politics, i did a little googling and i found a transcript in which the phrase is used by Fraser Agnew. Could this be the source of this quote? If noone objects, i'll attribute it to him in the article. Foobaz·✐ 07:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] National/Unionist Northern Ireland - A "Protestant State" 1925–1968

Reading this paragraph seems to me that someone does not have a clear idea of who the Nationalist where, and who the Unionist were. As of 9/14/07 it appears switched in all context. If someone else would like to verify and change this, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.178.74.70 (talk) 01:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorism

I note that this article does not use the word "terrorist" or "terrorism" once throughout the entire article. Surely this is necessary for an article on the NI troubles! -- 25 April 2005 143.117.143.42

I agree, it is odd that mention of terrorism should be omitted. I have added a balancing note on views of PIRA by other countries, taken from the PIRA article. --Air 15:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In regards to referring to the IRA as a 'terrorist' organization, i think the complexity of the situation and the specific connotation applied to the term as we know it today needs to be taken into account. Certainly the IRA has engaged in dubious and illegal, not to mention immoral behavior. However, with terrorism being associated with the actions of islamo-fascists, it is imperative to recognize the Troubles and its further implications as a different animal. Terrorist aspects of the Irish struggle should not undermine the fundamental difference in the political and social history of the country. Certainly there is more legitimacy in Irish resistance than in Islamic terrorism aimed at destroying Israel and the Western world as we know it -- 16 December 2005 69.161.36.180

In many places in Ireland, especially parts of the Six Counties, the Provos, or PIRA are not considered to be terrorists: they are freedom fighters, fighting for the freedom of a country that was oppressed by the English for several hundred years, a land which Britain still refuses to grant its freedom. Ireland should be free, the whole of it, not just a part. -- 2 March 2006 68.58.116.87

One must consider that Northan Ireland has a Unionist majority"In the 2001 census, 45.5% of the Northern Irish population were Protestant, (Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Methodist and other Protestant denominations), and 40.3% of the population were Roman Catholic. 13.9% of the population did not specify a religion. While a plurality of the present-day population (38%) define themelves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 35% define themselves as neither, 59% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom, while 22% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland", that is why partition was carried out originally. If the Northan Irish had wished to join the the Republic of Ireland they had the oppertunity in the 1920's via the will of an elected body (seeIrish Free State), shurly for a minority group to try and overturn the view of the majorty by means of violent acts must make them terrorists.(81.159.56.4 16:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)).

There was no vote,the partion came about through negotiations involving Michael Collins and British representatives,this is what led to the Irish Civil War.It is also well known that for generations many members of the Catholic communities were put into housing that did not entitle then to a vote.This was mostly evident in Derry wher there was a majority of Catholics but unionists were in power.This is surely worse than any percieved terrorism,of which there are several unionist and loyalist groups also, and is ,in fact, similar to a violent dictatorship such as Mugabe in Zimbabwe.

Also the word terrorism was thought up by the Americans before an after the World Trade Centre attacks and was adopted by certain people in Northern Ireland as a biased term which is an extreme POV.This term is not used for one section but is for the other.Either both or none.Also there seems to be no mention of the over spill of violence into the Republic which I feel is an integral part of the story that needs to be told,why is there not much,if any, mention of the dublin monaghan bombings?

First, the article already shows the reasons behind the troubles thus your speech doesn't really mean anything as it is already established. And if you think that the word terrorism was made up by the American's after 911 you are very much misinformed. The term has been used for decades and in Northern Ireland as well as I have referred to the trouble as 'terrorism' for two decades.
The article, IMO should refer to terrorism because that is what it was. Thousands of people died, mainly civilians due to the bombing and killings on both sides. It was all terrorism. Butch-cassidy 18:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly I would like to say that I respect everyone's views on this but The terms "terrorist" and "Freedom fighter" should be used so that this article is unbiased. The use of both terms would point out the views of both sides of the community in Northern Ireland. Also to the above person who said "One must consider that Northan Ireland has a Unionist majority...If the Northan Irish had wished to join the the Republic of Ireland they had the oppertunity in the 1920's via the will of an elected body...shurly for a minority group to try and overturn the view of the majorty by means of violent acts must make them terrorists." First of all the Northern Ireland has a Unionist majority but only in Counties Antrim and Down, the other four Counties of Northern Ireland would have been free if the Boundary Commission had been set up. Secondly in the 1920's and indeed all the way through the 20th Century Catholics had little or no vote, and the elected body was a biased and Unionist ruled Government. Quite obviously the "elected body" was not going to allow a the North to join the Republic. Finally, just because Nationalism/Catholicism in the North is the minority does not mean that they are "terrorists" or does that mean that their wish to join the Republic makes them "terrorists". Surely if you are going to have an unbiased article you must represent the views of both sides of the community, and not meerly overlook the views of the "minority".--Oisinh (talk) 12:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Lapsed Pacifist has been here again. Conributed much POV, which needs to be drastically cleaned up. Some examples:

"and the anger felt by the Irish because of the occupation and genocide by the British. (It was only in the last 2 years that Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, made a formal apology on behalf of the United Kingdom for the treatment of the Irish people during the preceeding 400 years.)"

"Except for unionists, all other segments argued that the Northern Ireland of the 1960s needed change"

"while the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the British army and loyalists stepped up their violence to oppose it."

"when the anti-Catholic Orange Order insist on parading through Catholic neighbourhoods"

"the slowness of others has led to Sinn Féin witholding its support fom the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the time being"

-- Jonto 22:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree totally. I had not seen those edits bt they are so POV it beggars belief. We are going to have to keep an eye on LP's edits more thoroughly and cull that sort of tone. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 22:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm surprised, Jtd, that you did'nt see fit to check whether or not I actually made those edits. Three to five look factual, I don't see the problem with them. The first definitely does'nt look like anything I've ever written, and I'm also doubtful about the second. But, by all means, keep an eye on my edits. Just make sure they're mine. -- Lapsed Pacifist 23:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Some of the quotes are factual but just need reframing in a more NPOV way. I should of course have checked to make sure you made them and I apologise if you didn't. The first, I agree, is unlike anything I have seen you write. That is why there was a tone of surprise (and disappointment) in what I wrote. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I've tweaked the collusion section slightly for tone; it read a little like editorialising and generalisation of the parties involved. Evilteuf 14:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Problem

It is claimed that "many British commentators" use the term "the Irish Problem". Perhaps this comment should be deleted until someone provides evidence of this use in recent history. If "many" turns out to be relatively few, then the claim should be clarified in this respect, and then it would become a rather meaningless statement not worthy to be in the article anyway. -- 4 August 2005 219.78.68.166

I deleted this claim. I've not heard it used in 10 or 20 years, and the whole remark seemed to add little. -- Stevelinton 20:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shocking omission

Maybe I didn't read this close enough, but there seems to be a shocking omission of historical context: "What is clear is that its origins lie in the century-long debate over whether Ireland, or part of Ireland, should be part of the United Kingdom"

A single century?!?! Methinks it's a bit older than that! The priming of the pump is a couple of centuries older than that. Some reference must be made to the Irish Plantations. Without the scottish settlements there would of been no controversy post WWI.

Otherwise much credit to the authours for a balanced and short article that links to more meaty articles. -- 9 August 2005 69.23.220.138

Well, the United Kingdom only came into existence in 1801, so at the outbreak of the troubles the debate can't have been much more than two centuries old :) --Ryano 13:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
While the UK only came into being in 1800, the invasion of ireland by the British (Normans) dates back to 1100 ad and the dispute betweeen the Protestants and Catholics in the British Isles is centuries old. -- 2 December 2005 67.80.66.169
during the 1100's, the Pope gave England official claim to rule ireland, but only King James (1600's) actually did anything about it. Officially, say 800 yrs. In practice, try 400. -- 5 December 2005 62.53.32.134
A couple of facts for our anonymous contributors: The UK came into being in 1707. There was no "British invasion". The "British" were the people of the British Isles. The Normans were invited to Ireland by the Irish. The Scottish 'planters' are likely to have been Irish in origin. Protestants didn't come into being until after 1517 - 490 years ago. Ireland is a proper noun and as such deserves a capital letter. --Mal 22:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The Irish did NOT invite the normans, that was the king of Leinster. Thats like saying the English invited the nazis into England because the Duke of York asked adolf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.122.105.151 (talk) 22:27, 2 March 2007

Was the king of Leinster not Irish then..? :o Read up on Irish history - I'm sure you'll find it fascinating. --Mal 20:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

one irish person does not make it"the Irish" User:Shamboss 17:23,23 january 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shambosse (talk • contribs)

[edit] Further reading

Surely there are some more neutral and wide-ranging academic/historical studies that could be listed? "Steaknife" is interesting, but is journalism, not history and covers only a tiny fraction of the topic. Stevelinton 20:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

More non-biased background is needed in this article, because it completely fails to focus on the origins and imporant events that led to the headline grabbing incidents of violence. The relocation of Protestants into Ulster in 1607 by the English govt. set the stage for the struggles in later centuries. Also, the expulsion of the Irish elite led the way for the Protestant power grabbing that took place. The failure of O'Neill's attempts at reconciliation with Lemass in 1965 led to the NICRA and the student demonstrations, which in turn led to the Battle at the Bogside in 1969, when Chichester-Clarke called London for troops. I was nearly appalled when the term "genocide" was used in reference to the Unionist actions of the past century. To my knowledge, while the Unionists' deserve blame, it was the PIRA and RIRA that killed more people than all of the Protestant groups combined. Keep it factual. -- 5 December 2005 152.17.56.91

[edit] Some FOI records

I've been going through the MoD Freedom of Information releases, and have found some documents that might be useful to fleshing this article, or related ones, out. I'll just link them here in case they're of help - do we have an Army in Northern Ireland page? Shimgray | talk | 15:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 210.211.80.5 point of view

More needs to be said about modern times, at least from 2000 onwards. The continuation of this "war", carried out in a 1st world country, which has very high standards of education, health, freedom, not to mention a booming economy, and of course the tight checks and measures on British rule and interference, should be taken into account. Armed struggle may be justifiable in 3rd world countries where there is REAL oppression, but in this case, the agitators (the IRA) should be held accountable for the hell they have put the Irish people through for their own selfish political and financial gain. -- 2 December 2005 210.211.80.5

[edit] Sinn Feins Marxist perspective

I would dispute the accuracy of that claim. Provisional Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA involved themselves in the Northern Ireland conflict on explicit republican grounds. Provisional Sinn Fein Splits from Sinn Fein was a rejection of Marxist politics on the grounds that it was alienating traditional supporters of the republican movement, the latter part and marxist group of the party became known as Offical Sinn Fein -- 27 December 2005 83.70.28.240

[edit] bloody friday

seemed POV (terms like 'carnage'). had read:"A day of carnage in Northern Ireland when men women and children died as a result of provisional IRA bombs."Mike McGregor (Can) 19:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Not really, carnage is the only word to describe what happened. If you said something like "A day of carnage in Northern Ireland when men women and children died as a result of the actions of the murdering provisional IRA and their bombs. then maybe. -- User: Jasca Ducato as 194.80.20.10, 3 April 2006

[edit] To the anonymous user at the University of York

I changed it to Ulster, as sectarian tension is not confined to the six counties. I used the religious rather than the political division, as the trouble is older than the current political divisions. -- Lapsed Pacifist 10:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs work

This article is dreadful considering its importance in many histories (Irish, British, colonial etc). Why all the gaps in information and the history? -- max rspct leave a message 15:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and if its not done, people will just come on and write crap until its changed. Can I propose a reorganisation along these lines:

  • very brief ie less than one para, on historical background incl plantations, home rule and foundation of Northern Ireland
  • A narrative overview.

-The Civil Rights campaign and its breakdown into violence. -The subsequent communal violence in derry/londonderry and belfast. -The deployment of the British army, the start of the PIRA campaign in earnest (1971). The loyalists response. -Internment and Bloody Sunday - the dissafecti9on of the nationalist community -The fall of Stormont and introduction of Direct Rule -Sunningdale Agreement and the Ulster Workers Council Strike -The Prison issue and Hunger Strikes -The IRA's "long war" late 1970s to early 1990s (main article at PIRA page). -Anglo Irish Agreement 1985 -Loyalist upsurge in killings c. 1986-1994 -Ceasefires 1994 -Agreement 1998

  • Analytical perspectives

-Casualty breakdown (leave as now) -motivations (as now) -current status, political and security

Any comments? -- Jdorney 17:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds okay. Read the article and whilst I found some parts really good, not least the fact it provided what felt like a thorough but brief NPOV summary, it certainly could do with more material in places. Or at the least not the feel to be a list of other pages. Surely there was some sort of historical narrative into which the key events can be placed. I don't know enough to write it as I came to the page to learn it. Panlane --82.38.227.22 20:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I've written most of what I talked about above. Editors are welcome to comment/change as they see fit. -- Jdorney 17:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images Added

  • Images added, Cleanup tag removed. Message me with comments/complaints. Skaterblo 22:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added detail on collusion

Added detail about Ulster Resistance, Force Research Unit and "Death on the Rock"- these werent appearing yet omitting them leaves the section with a POV/one side of the story kind of feel. Hope it helps. Fluffy999 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Hume

Any objection to replacing one of the 2 Gerry Adams pictures with a picture of someone else? John Hume for example, or even David Trimble. Its not a POV thing, just that Hume perhaps played a big role in the ceasefires etc. Theres also no image of Ian Paisley, who is also a major contributor to events throughout the period. Fluffy999 00:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

No Problems here. Or you just might add them w/o replacing. Either way yeah i think a pic of hume or triblme is warrented, though i would like to see something other then their headshot. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
ok will have a look for some action pics Fluffy999 07:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I like this one but its copyrighted :/ Fluffy999 14:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
OK how about remove both the Adams pictures, and replace one with this image of Hume & Adams arguing on TV. Then use this image of Paisley and Trimble arguing on TV. The problem is, unless you create a "rogues gallery" montage of all their headshots you wont get them all appearing together. The pictures are kind of fuzzy but the copyright is released so no issued there. Fluffy999 14:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Well i got the Hume/Adams picture to work, the Pasiley/Trimble picture came back as a 404. Would be nice if tey were better quailty though, just my opinion. As for all of them together wrnt their pictures or at least some filing done during the negotations that showed all of them in the same place at the same time, could have sworn i seen a program that showd as such. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes the images are definately low quality. Dont remember the program- afaik Paisley always refused to appear in images with Adams.

Hello, I added in some images of all the main politico's. This isnt a POV against Gerry Adams, but they all played a part so seems fair to have more than images of one person in there. Fluffy999 08:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] a "legal" war

First paragraph- "although the conflict does not qualify as a war in any legal sense." Seems POVish. Over at War its stated: "the term "war" is restricted by legal definition to those conflicts where one or both belligerents have formally declared war"

There has at least been a few declarations of "war". Two that spring to mind are the UVF in 1966, and the PIRA's fairly constant insistance it was at "war". The War article also makes the case that there are reasons why wars arent strictly declared- so a war between opposing sides can be waged but remained publicly undeclared for various reasons.

I say its POVish because the british government made the "Criminalisation" of the PIRA an objective of their part in the conflict. So the first paragraph frames the article from the outset with their POV.

The point that was trying to be made could be that the combatents werent strictly speaking standing armies with uniforms, advanced military hardware etc. I prefer the low intensity conflict definition. Fluffy999 10:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Background

Do we really need such a long and slightly confusing background section? The history of Ireland and of Ulster is covered in great detail elsewhere. Isn't it better to concentrate on the immediate roots of the troubles, ie since 1912 or so? Other wise people will keep adding details on things going back as far as the Nine Years War, the Plantation of Ulster, the 1641 rebellion, the Cromwellian conquest, the sige of Derry, the battle of the Boyne etc etc etc. Apart from anything else, it is important to keep the article to managable length. Jdorney 16:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Having clarified this passage, I'm more convinced than ever that it should be cut out entirely and the relevant links given for the main articles. A paragraph can't hope to cover four hundred years of Irish history, while still explaining it properly. Besides, the 1790s etc are not directly relevant to the content of this article. Any comments? Jdorney 16:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello I dont think its confusing, its just boring. You could maybe express the results of all those events in a small paragraph ie. simmering cauldron of hatred which sometime overflows. Where to begin talking about origins is complicated- some say with plantation, some say with original invasion, etc. Some people, like Ken Maginnis, say "kick the pope" bands in 12th july parades were happily being watchedby flag waving 'taigs' before latest in 1969. You would want to avoid glossing over events to that extent as it could give a false impression that everything was fine within NI until the late 1960s.


[edit] What is this conflict: native against settler or Catholic against Protestant?

I feel the latter definition distorts the entire conflict claiming it to be religious. The former is the original dynamic and as such is inherently political; the latter and all others are merely additions to that conflict. Can anybody here show how the conflict is religious as opposed to religion being used to justify the conquerers keeping the power? I have yet to meet a nationalist who kills somebody because of their religion. How, pray tell, are people killing each other about a God rather than about controlling power here? Please, those using the labels "Catholic" and "Protestant" here, justify why they are better labels than native/nationalist and settler/unionist, both of which are political labels. El Gringo 02:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Catholic and Protestant is also a political term set in its own time and context. From roughly 1603, when the English first established control over all of Ireland, until the 1820s, the main criterion for belonging to the dominant group in the state was not ethnic origin, but religious conformity. The Protestant Ascendancy meant just that, it was a ruling group of Church of Ireland members. There is no contradiction between highlighting the importance of religion and argueing that hte conflict was always about power. Religion itself was about power.

Now it is true that this was also originally mainly a division between settler and native, but it was never execlusively so. Moreover, by the 1790s it makes no sense to talk about "settlers and natives", all concerned were natives, going back 100 years at least. What's more they didn't describe themselves as British or Irish, as they do now, they used the terms Catholic, Protestant (meaning CoI) and dissenter (meaning Protestants who did not conform to the state church -including presbyterians).

Furthermore, it is not true to say that all Catholics are descended from Gaelic Irish people and that no Protestants are. A quick survey of names in NI and indeed the rest of Ireland, will reveal otherwise. It is true that religion in itself is not currently the major issue in the conflict, but the communal division is marked by religious criteria and not by ethnic ones (ie language, descent etc). For modern divisions, you can use the terms nationalist and unionist, but to suggest that the terms Catholic and Protestant are irrelevant is not accurate.

Jdorney 12:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

"Aye," the old Glasgow joke runs, "but are ye a Catholic Jew or a Protestant one?"
In many respects, religion in the sense of theology is irrelevant; it's a strong historical polarisation stemming from many things (religion, ethnicity and politics being high on the list) which is now an excuse for people to kick the shit out of each other. It just so happens that one of the most obvious differences between them - and one which is recognised by all parties - is the religious divide.
Asking about "conquerors keeping the power" or "native/settler" is essentially meaningless. It held water in Ireland, where there was still the issue of a largely absent landowner class, but not in modern Northern Ireland; the population fluctuations over the years in Ulster make it very hard to talk about a "settler" versus a "native". Shimgray | talk | 13:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Native against invader is more accurate,the fact that many protestants were involved in the struggle for emancipation from the British,Wolfetone being one of the more famous examples,it is incorrect to say it is a Catholic versus Protestant struggle.

Speaking of "the conquerers keeping the power" is highly POV. No more of less so than saying that the aim of the IRA was to conquer Northern Ireland, though taken literally both would have an element of truth. At root the present conflict is about national identification and ethnic (in it's widest sense rather than it's bloodline sense) sentiment. It is at base a border dispute between people with differing senses of national identity, not esentially dissimilar to the Basque country, Sri Lanka, various combinations of disputes in the Balkans or even the much more peaceful "troubles" in Belgium from time to time. Arguments about abuse of power in the past or potential abuse of power in the future (e.g. "Rome rule") are secondary justifications and propaganda points but are not the base root of the issue at controversy. Neither side claims a supremacist position, in the sense that they support the denial of civil rights to others. That principle is not a matter being contested and was not really a matter under contention during the the vast majority of "the troubles". It may have been easier to see the conflict as a border dispute if there had been a land bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland, but at base that is what the conflict is.80.229.27.11 (talk) 19:02, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology: "Northern Ireland conflict"

Looking for the article "Northern Ireland conflict", I found that there was no such thing, and consequently created it, as a redirect to this page. Now I wonder if this was right, i.e. if "Northern Ireland conflict" and "The Troubles" are synonymous terms, or whether "The Troubles" are just part of the Northern Ireland conflict; in the latter case, Northern Ireland conflict would have to be made into a page of its own right, I assume.--Robin.rueth 13:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, one and the same thing. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

"The roots of the Troubles lie in the failure of Northern Ireland to integrate the Catholic/nationalist population within its borders into its state."

Is this not just stating the obvious? What this sentence means is that, for whatever reason, a significant portion of nationalists in Northern Ireland never accepted the legitimacy of the state, leading in the end to political conflict. It is not a commentary on this fact, or a judgement, or apportioning blame, so I don't see why it would need a citation. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

IMO the problem with that statement is that it implies that if the Northern Ireland state had behaved differently then the Catholic/nationalist population would have integrated and accepted the legitimacy of the state. This is a controversial opinion and not NPOV. It may be that nothing the NI government could have done differently would have made nationalists accept the state as legitimate just as hypothetically there may have been no way that a Dublin government could have had an all Ireland state that unionists would have accepted as legitimate if partition had not occurred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.27.11 (talk) 19:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The ceasefires

Something I have noticed in the article is that it states that once the 1994 ceasefires where declared it was the effective end to the troubles. It does make mention to limited violence following this ceasefire however this completely ignores the end of the ceasefire in February 1996 with the Canary Wharf bombings and the other attacks which lead to the return to complete violence by the IRA and other paramilitaries. I feel the article should reflect the fact that peace was not truly declared in Northern Ireland until the 1998 ceasefire. Butch-cassidy 16:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Might someone comment before I begin altering this? Butch-cassidy 11:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Good idea Weggie 11:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've made the changes, now its upto everyone to polish them. [1] Butch-cassidy 10:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit by 216.194.4.244

There was an edit by IP 216.194.4.244, adding a new figure for the numbers of casualties in the intro; the edit looks a little clumsy to me (and certainly doesn't read very well), and needs looking at. I don't know enough on the subject to correct (don't even remember why I stumbled across the page!). Given that the casualty figures also appear later in the article in the tables, there needs to be some consistency.

In the meantime, I'm about to remove a bit of text from the article around said tables, since the sentences "Most of those killed were civilians or members of the security forces, with smaller groups of victims identified with republican and loyalist paramilitary groups. It is often disputed whether some civilians were members of paramilitary organisations due to their secretive nature." appear in both the Responsibility and the Status sections. I'm leaving the one in the Status section, since that seems more appropriate. Carre 21:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Betrayals and the Future

While much has been made of the situation in later years of the 20th century,it should be remembered this conflict is comprised of betrayals by both sides. Religion has been and will always be the dividing factor in Ireland, North and South. The Unitied Irishmen were betrayed by the Catholics at the behest of the church, the church was bribed with the right to train priests in Ireland. A hundred years earlier a protestant was hired by the Pope to kill the King and take control because Irish priests were threatening his control.

This is where the fallacy lies in Irish history both protestants and Catholics did not want British rule in the 18th,19th and early 20th century.This changed with the referendum after WW1. The northern Irish Protestant developed a siege mentality after the free state passed a series of extremely Draconian Laws which curtailed the Protestant's right to work and live in the free state.

The TROUBLES started over not a percieved injustice to Catholics but an injustice which effected both working class groups equally. The problem is that valid points were subsumed by a religious intolerance,(propagated by both religions)and therefore neither protestant or catholic can hold his head up and look innocent.

While many are looking forward, all I have seen in Northern Ireland is a hardening of the tribalism in the last few years. Before anyone asks I have lived here for over 40 years, I was a child when Bloody Sunday happened and I lament this situation.

The only way forward is the intergration of our schools but this is being fought tooth and claw by the Catholic church and this with the political climate here going to both extremes does not bode well for the future. This has not ended, maybe I am wrong (hopefully) but in all likelihood this is a lull in the problem.

I'm sure your heart's in the right place, but I don't think you know your history very well. The United Irishmen's support base was predominantly Catholic. No Protestant was ever hired by a Pope to kill a king (I don't even know what you're referring to here). Protestants resisted Irish self government since the 1830s repeal movement, got organised in a mass movement in the 1880s to resist Home Rule and threatened civil war to oppose it in 1912-14. There was no referendum after WWI, perhaps you mean the 1918 election? The Free State passed no laws curtailing the right of protestants to live and work there, draconian or otherwise.

Jdorney 12:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Headline text

[edit] Background

Does anyone else feel that we need to ditch, or at least radically cut, the background section? its far too long and confusing for the general reader right now. Perhaps it should be moved to a different article? Jdorney 20:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well maybe some of it could be reduced, but from what I read it seems like a reasonable amount of historical detail for a conflict that does essentially have a starting point some 400 years ago. So I wouldn't really be in favour of getting rid of it, no. --Hibernian 20:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The second two sections should be drastically reduced, since they reduplicate History of Northern Ireland (and are approximately equal in length to the two equivalent sections in that article.) Cut these two down to at least half their current size and insert for more information see... Cripipper 21:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

Can someone fill in the releavant information in the infobox? Exiledone 17:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the infobox on military conflicts b/c this is not your typical military conflict. It cannot be distilled down to specific commanders, specific combatants and specific dates and times. Obviously other opinions are welcome, but this just doesn't seem right for an article about The Troubles. Cheers, PaddyM 17:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
OK. No problem.

Exiledone 19:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It was added again today. Might have a go at completing it, but probably should be removed. Stu ’Bout ye! 12:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
How about something like this. I stress this is a very rough draft. Stu ’Bout ye! 13:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


The Troubles
Date 1969 - 1998
Location Northern Ireland
Result The Belfast Agreement
Belligerents
Irish Republican Army, Irish National Liberation Army British Army, Royal Ulster Constabulary Various Loyalist paramilitary groups
Commanders
IRA Army Council Various Various, including CLMC, UAC and ULCCC
Strength
750 active IRA members in the 1980s, INLA unknown Approximately 17,000 British Army presonnel at peak, 7,000 RUC personnel at peak Unknown
Casualties and losses
Total of 394 republican paramilitaries Total of 1,112 British security personnel Total of 151 loyalist paramilitaries

Stu, as you know an infobox on this subject is going to be difficult to manage due to the sensitivity of the subject and the complex nature. However, that infobox is a pretty good stab at one.--Vintagekits 13:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it has a nice appearance, but is is necessary? I mean, it implies that the conflict is over and that there was a peaceful resolution. Also, it fails to account for civilian damages and casualties. I am inclined to think that there are simply too many factions and to simply boil it down to an info-box. Cheers, PaddyM 15:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The civilian casualties are listed in the code, but aren't showing for some reason. Think I would have to add a 4th "combatant" column for civilians, which obviouslt isn't appropriate. Take a look at the code and you'll see what I mean. Agreed, not a good idea to add this unless someone improves it dramatically and probably not necessary anyway. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm with the others on this. I can see how an infobox would be a good idea, but it's very difficult to adequately summarise it. Just as a point of pedantry, shouldn't the RUC be in the third column with the other loyalist paramilitaries? ;) One Night In Hackney303 16:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I was waiting for someone to say that! Stu ’Bout ye! 07:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
The infobox is a good idea but would it be worth while created a template like this one about WW2, that could bring together all aspects of the troubles. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 12:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Although I don't support putting in an infobox in this article (or any article as I feel they distract from the main stuff) i did design one anyway. I put casualties in the second part as there's not casualties 4 you can put in and casualities 2 looks more neutral as it's in the midle and there's no line separating. The H-Man2 13:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


The Troubles
Date 1969 - 1998
Location Northern Ireland
Result Belfast Agreement
Belligerents
Republican Paramilitaries:
Provisional IRA Primarily
Official IRA until 1973
Irish National Liberation Army
 Security Forces:
British Army
Royal Ulster Constabulary
Ulster Defence Regiment
Other Security Forces		 Loyalist Paramilitaries:
Ulster Volunteer Force
Ulster Defence Association
Commanders
IRA Army Council Various Various including ULCCC and CLMC
Strength
Provisional IRA:Peak strength c.1,500, current strength c.300
Official IRA:Peak strength unkown
INLA:Peak strength unknown, current strength c.30		 British Army:c.11,000
RUC:8,500 (1990's)
UDR:2,440 (1970)		 UVF: c.1,000 (1970's), current strength ?00
UDA c.20,000 (1970) current strength ?00
Casualties and losses
Republican Paramilitaries 394
Security Forces 1,123
Loyalist Paramilitaries 151
Civilians 1,855
50,000 of any wounded

[edit] "Military theory" section

I've taken this out; it was vague, semi-coherent, and contained no actual content beyond a vague implication that torture was in a training manual. If you want to say this, say it, and discuss the allegations appropriately; the section as it stood, though, meandered around the point and was no use to anyone. "Someone says that this book, which we're claiming was a standard handbook, quoted someone else, who had in the past talked about using torture". Really, that's what it boiled down to.

There is useful material that can be written on the military theory of the British Army's role in the troubles - it is, after all, a rare and thus well-studied example of how a Western power has had to deal with this kind of thing "at home" - but that section wasn't it; it was just a vague unsourced bundle of implication, which did not help the reader in the slightest. Shimgray | talk | 18:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This edit I support. The only reason I had the final line in the section was due to the paragraths leading the reader to that conclusion. Butch-cassidy 09:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for Gaelic translation of "The Troubles"

I was wondering why the term "The Troubles" had the Irish equivalent in brackets in the opening paragraph. Is it Wikipedia's intention to teach people Gaelic, or is there genuine usage of the phrase in Irish?

Taken to the extreme, to help illustrate my point: should we also include the translation of Indoor cycling and Internal decapitation? Should the Ulster Lallans be included too? --Mal 07:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Overall there may be too many unnecessary and irrelevant Irish translations, but I think this one is fair enough. If you google it the term is used in Irish quite a lot. On the subject of Ulster Scots, there probably should be uniformity. The WP:IMOS is probably the best place to raise that. Stu ’Bout ye! 07:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that as everyone who can read Irish Gaelic and/or Ulster Scots can also read English, then there's no real point in including the translations unless they are some kind of formal title etc, or in the case of place names, etymology is involved... in which case I would actively encourage it. I'm not entirely convinced this is anything more than just a literal translation. OFMDFM and things like that are a different matter, if you follow me. --Mal 23:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorising prisoners from The Troubles

Further to the numerous discussions, largely on Wikipedia talk:Irish Wikipedians' notice board, a proposal has been made attempt to neutrally categorise individuals imprisoned during The Troubles. Your comments are welcomed at:

Thanks. Rockpocket 00:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] UDA campaign

"In response to this campaign and the perceived erosion of both the British character and unionist domination of Northern Ireland, loyalist paramilitaries such as the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and Ulster Defence Association (UDA) launched their own campaigns against the nationalist population".

this statement is totally inaccurate, the UDA campaign was launched in 1966 in response to the civil rights association. 3 years before the Troubles officially began. It could be argued that the split in the IRA was in response to this sectarian murder campaign by loyalists and the perceived need by the bationalist communities to defend themselves--MarkyMarkDCU 15:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Your confusing the UVF with the UDA, it was the UVF that emerged in 1966.--padraig 04:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location - England/Britain

To the best of my knowledge there was never a single casualty outside England. As a matter of policy, the Provos did not attack targets in Scotland or Wales. There was the single attack in the early 80s in the Shetland Islands when the Queen was opening a gas terminal, but there weren't any casualties. It's probably better as England to emphasise the location of the casualties, but I'm open to discussion. One Night In Hackney303 20:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

fine. Is there a source for their policy of not attacking Wales/Scotland? BillMasen 20:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll look into it now. One Night In Hackney303 20:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
[2] says "The IRA has long regarded bombing English targets (there have never been any attacks in Scotland or Wales)". One Night In Hackney303 20:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from comments page

I have written a memoir which I think adds to the understanding of the relationship between the NICRA and the IRA as it then was (1960s, attempting to go political under Goulding). This was published in April 2006 by a Tyndall-Lilliput combination, is publicly available, and is called 'Century of Endeavour'. It goes in some depth to the foundation of the Wolfe Tone Societies and the steps which led to the development of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, under influences which included the Connolly Association in London. An overview can be seen via my web-site which is at http://www.iol.ie/~rjtechne/ and an electonic version of the book, with notes and references hotlinked into source material, is accessible by arrangement with me in the short run, and in the long run will be publicly available one way or another.

I could write a revised entry on the origin of the Troubles in NI, but would not want to be seen as simply promoting my book. I would prefer if someone else who knew the period were to write an update, drawing on my book as a referenceable source, and I would co-operate with this process by making available the e-version of the book.

There was an element in the IRA in the 60s which genuinely wanted to go the political road and to prove it would work without violence, and in my time I tried to act as a source of policies for this process.

Perhaps someone like Daltun O Ceallaigh, who is referenced, might be persuaded to take this up? Should I sugggest it to him?

Roy Johnston 11:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)Roy Johnston April 3, 2007

[edit] this page

This page seems mostly one sided to me, and I'm not even from NI, the page needs to show all details not just ones that involve loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces, the nationalist paramilitaries killed more people then the other two combined (nevermind the disappeared) and yet they are hardly touched upon in this article, they seem to be virtually revered on other pages in this site, also collusion must be looked at in both ways.

I am not saying this out of spite or anything I was doing research for a history essay on the troubles and was looking at wikipedia, as you do, for general information and thought it isn't exactly fair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.240.229.68 (talk) 22:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your comment unsigned. I would urge you to try and add a bit of balance to this article or any of the others regarding Northern Ireland. You'll soon find your edits are not welcome unless they show the British/unionist side in a bad way or they show the nationalist view in a positive light (this includes the IRA). And to think Wikipedia thinks it should be distibuted to schools and the like.

[edit] Recent edits

This sentence seems to be the subject of some dispute:

The RUC in response deployed armoured cars with Browning heavy machine guns and killed a nine year old boy in the nationalist Falls Road area of Belfast.

Before I go into any depth, this is what various sources say:

  • Geraghty The Irish War p 22 - "At close range the Shorlands poured heavy bursts into nearby Divis Streets high-rise flats, where Patrick Rooney, aged nine, cowered in his bedroom. A .3 shell from one of the Shorlands blew his head off as it passed through the building."
  • Taylor Provos p 52 - "The police opened fire with .30 Browning machine guns mounted on armoured cars capable of firing 500-600 rounds a minute. One of these rounds killed a nine-year-old Catholic boy, Patrick Rooney, in his home in Divis Flats. He was shot through the head whilst asleep in bed. The bullet had come through two walls."
  • Dillon 25 Years of Terror p 117 - "The RUC overreacted by deploying Shoreland armoured vehicles against the Catholics. The Shorelands were armed with heavy-calibre .303 Browning machine-guns and were unsuitable for use if a densely populated area. One bullet from a Browning entered the walls of Divis Flats in the Lower Falls road and killed nine-year-old Patrick Rooney in his bed."

There's probably some more as well, but those adequately demonstrate the points I'm about to make. The RUC used heavy machine guns which were unsuitable for use in a densely populated area, and fired them at the flats. Therefore they take the ultimate responsibility for their actions, seemingly reckless as they were. Did they intend to kill Patrick Rooney? Not for us to say, but to try and fix the sentence in question by say adding the word "accidentally" that would be biased. When the IRA (or any other organisation) make mistakes, do we say "accidentally killed" in this article or any other? Of course not! I've nothing against the sentence being clarified or expanded upon, but to claim it was accidental is incorrect and biased. One Night In Hackney303 17:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence removed

  • "The Provisional IRA claimed to have decommissioned most of its weaponry as of August-September 2005, meaning that, if true, it would no longer have the capacity for large-scale armed actions in the immediate future."

The IRA never claimed to have decommissioned most of its weaponry, the IMC claimed they had. Plus it's all very wishy-washy and speculative, what are "large-scale" armed actions anyway? Unless fertiliser and shovels have been decommissioned, it missed the point somewhat anyway. It's always been minds that needed decommissioning, not weaponry. One Night In Hackney303 14:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the name

When and where did this conflict first come to be known as "The Troubles", and how did such a mild name come about for such a vicious conflict anyway? 76.123.216.96 (talk) 06:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

In fact "the Troubles" as a political term has a much older history in both Ireland and England, which the article should mention. In the 1960s references to "the troubles" would have been assumed to refer to the post-WWI Black and Tan & Civil War period, and the term pre-dated even that period. My impression is that it did not become a widespread term for the troubles starting in the 60's for some years into them. In the OED meaning 2 "public disturbance, disorder or confusion" goes back to 1378. Johnbod (talk) 18:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The British army technically wasn't on the same side as Ulster Loyalists

Putting the "ulster Loyalists" and the British goverment on the same Combantant sides is historically in accurate. UVF, UDA and others have infact battled with the ex-Royal Ulster Constabalry, Police Service Northern Ireland and The British Army. Please stop changing it back its not historically accurate. If its that nessiary Just add "Ulster Loyalists" in a sepperate combatants box. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL STANCE, I made this change for the sake of historical accuracy. This is the person who keeps reversing my corrections "172.189.19.107". Thank you.

(Paddy (talk) 16:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC))

That's literally only a technicality. Various Republican groups clashed from time to time - didn't mean they weren't on the same side. Except of course the execrable surrender-monkeys aka The Stickies. (Sarah777 (talk) 02:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC))

But the British goverment claimed uda, uvf and others as terrorist organisations.

(Paddy (talk) 20:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC))

Paddy, there is no such thing as a "terrorist organisation". The word cannot be defined - so it is a political label. (Sarah777 (talk) 06:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC))
The British Government also claimed it wasn't in talks with the Republican Movement as well prior to the ceasefire, leading to the GFA. As for Loyalist organisations, it has been proven numerous times that they were controlled, armed, trained and provided with information on Nationalists by the British security forces.--Padraig (talk) 20:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Right thats true but the Irish nationalists have also had infomation passed on them from RUC and other British forces in order to kill members of Loyalist paramilitaries for Example Johnnny Adair whos where abouts have been told to nationalists in order to carry out assasinations.. so to be fair there is some bad play from all sides.

A claim made by Adair, I wouldn't regard him as a reliable source.--Padraig (talk) 02:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

(Paddy (talk) 23:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC))

It would indeed be more accurate to say that the IRA (plus fellow travelers) and loyalists were on the same side against the RUC and the Army. The Army and RUC were there to uphold law and order in the face of terrorists from whatever source.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It can hardly be accurate, never mind "more accurate" to use words that mean nothing. D'oh! (Sarah777 (talk) 06:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC))
Sorry but from personal experience I know that is not true, both the RUC/UDR was passing on info to the Loyalists to target innocent nationalists, and British troops did the same they also armed and trained Loyalists.--Padraig (talk) 02:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is I didnt say Adair was the source of the infomation it was a leak from the RUC. Both sides Nationaist and Loyalist have both worked with British forces and fought against them but for the sake of making it clear I have seperated the sides. With saying that the UDA are technically a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom along with others like Al-Qaeda.

To show and example of a time when the British Army has gone against the UVF is the Miami Showband killings were two members of the UVF were convicted of the killing and also were members of the UDR heres a direct statment from the page... "During the Troubles it was a common occurrence to be stopped by the British Army on the roads. The unsuspecting members of the band were taken out of the minibus, and told to line up in a ditch by the side of the road.[2] Some of the men at the checkpoint were British soldiers, from the Ulster Defence Regiment. However, they were also members of an illegal paramilitary organisation, the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)"

IT THEN GOES ON TO SAY.. "Three members of UDR were eventually convicted for their part in the attack. James Somerville, Thomas Crozier and James McDowell all received life sentences".

To also make it clear that Nationalists have worked with the British goverment have you noticed whos the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, its non other then Sinn Feins Martin McGuinness. Lets just leave it as there was unfair play from all sides. (Paddy (talk) 04:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC))

Paddy, Martin McGuinness just like Ian Paisley were elected by the people of Northern Ireland, they were not appointed by the British, so I fail to see whatpoint your trying to make with that example.--Padraig (talk) 15:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Paddy, a few exceptions only prove the rule as I explained above. BA killers also got convicted (and quickly released, restored to the BA and promoted) - does that mean the British Army wasn't supporting the British? (Sarah777 (talk) 06:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC))

There arn't just a "few exceptions" to the so called rule. Loyalist paramilitaries as I have stated before have worked with/ against the British army and RUC, Just as the Nationalists have. Even with these slight "so called" exeptions they are still enemys and any unlawful coporating with the terrorists by the British army is ilegal as stated with the fact they are technically a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom along with others like Al-Qaeda. There is unfare play in both sides and due to the fact they are a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom attempting to place the Ulster Loyalists with the British army under the same side in the infobox because of the views they have previously worked with each other and against, and the fact you stating that they worked together out of your own biast beliefs is a NPOV violation.

(Paddy (talk) 01:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC))

Paddy, the evidence of colusion between the British security forces and the Loyalist parliamilitaries is well documented, the fact that the loyalists occassionly bite the hand that fed it, only highlights the failure of the British to understand the nature of Loyalism, their loyality was only forthcoming as long as it suits their aims, which where not always the same as the British.--Padraig (talk) 01:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You are exaggerating the extent to which collusion happened. If anything the systemic collusion was with the IRA given the way the Army had it riddled with informers. Regardless, it is much more accurate to say there were three "sides" in the troubles.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, believe me I get the situation, I get were you both are coming from about Loyalist, Nationalist and British beliefs, but all Im wanting is that the Infobox be left as it is with each side seperated for the fact technically there were "3 sides", the article itself can go into the details that need to be addressed about the problems at hand with Loyalism, Nationalism and even Britishism linking and colliding over the decades the troubles in Ireland have had. So can we please all for the sake of creating noNPOV violations and keep this all historically accurate otherwise theres no point of even having a even ballanced story. This is pointless having this endless arguement about "who was right", when it comes down to it the people of Northern Ireland will decide the future regarless of paramillitaries, the British army and this page!

(Paddy (talk) 01:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC))


Bad call Paddy, The notion of "three sides"; the poor British Tommy separating two warring tribes was at the very core of British propaganda during The Troubles. You propose to endorse that?!! (Sarah777 (talk) 02:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC))
It is the only accurate description.Traditional unionist (talk) 13:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Hardly, when Private Tommy and the State apparatus paying and supporting him worked hand-in-glove with local Unionist so-called "legal" paramilitaries like the RUC and also "illegals" like the UVF. (Sarah777 (talk) 03:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

No one won in the troubles lets just hope the future will be bright for Ireland and this waring period be ended (but not fogotten) as I stated before there as good and bad people and we all can agree we can learn from the past whenever its a possitive remembering, or a negitive remembering. I mean this entire depate against me was all started over a infobox I placed, the infobox was placed and edited by others for the sake of showing the differnt divides in the troubles, let the page its self go into the details about the situation. Also Traditional Unionist to let you know and to understand that im not particularly baist about the troubles I am a decendent that comes from a long line from a Protestant, Loyalist, Catholics and even Republicans, I cannot hate my family or there company, I just hope for a bright future for the province and Ireland itself. I only wanted to create a "historical" infobox to this page, for others to understand, lets just avoid a one side story to tell.

(Paddy (talk) 02:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

So Paddy, you are suggesting TRUTH should be sacrificed in the name of peace? That might be what politicians do, but Wiki?? (Sarah777 (talk) 03:11, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
WP:TRUTH should never be sacrificed. Rockpocket 04:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you please explain when I ever said that? If anything I want the truth, Why is this debate still going on over the infobox?!

(Paddy (talk) 09:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

The troubles has no objective truth. Not in the current climate. Regardless, the most accurate description is that there were three sides.Traditional unionist (talk) 13:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Nope. There were Unionists and Nationalists. The British Government was/are Unionists. The acted as Unionists throughout the troubles as per WP:Duck. And Trad Unionist; if you tried "importance=low" it might work better. Ever think The Force is trying to tell you something :) -- Sarah777 (talk)
Your assertions do not stand up to much scrutiny, certainly not the wikipedia tests.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Loyalist and Unionist if you havnt noticed have two differnt pages as they ARE TWO DIFFERNT ideologys. Maybe your one sided views with be accepted by some extremist millitant organisation but not here.

(Paddy (talk) 18:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

Tut tut Paddy - that's a tad uncivil. but I can tell you one thing; YOU won't be deciding were my views are acceptable or otherwise! (Sarah777 (talk) 19:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
Trad U - yes they do. Paddy; the IRSP and IRA have separate articles; does that mean there were four sides? So, to keep you guys happy, lets have a side for every group of combatants with a page in Wiki - then when it gets unmanageably big we'll distill it down to the two sets of groups that each group was exclusively a part of; Unionist and Nationalist. (Sarah777 (talk) 19:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
The infobox is perfectly correct as it.Traditional unionist (talk) 19:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It is now. (Sarah777 (talk) 19:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Box

I have fixed the box which was added without discussion or consensus. Should OIRA be moved to the British side? (Sarah777 (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

you are getting very close to vandalism.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Not even remotely. I altered the box to reflect a better perspective. Whoever first inserted it without consensus is the closest we have to a vandal. And, btw, you have broken your terms of probation per Arbcom so I'd not be issuing inaccurate and uncivil accusations if I were you. (Sarah777 (talk) 20:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

By no means is it reflecting a better prespective. By United Kingdom law Loyalist Paramillitaries are illegal terrorist organisations thus ranking them ENEMYS. Plus putting PIRA, RIRA and even INLA on same sides as Republic of Ireland is incorrect as well, seeing as Republic of Ireland has aswell put all those paramillitaries them as well as Illegal terrorist organisations. Just because the ideologies are simmilar, doesn't mean they are on the same sides. Technically, each of those paramillitaries shouldn't be on the same sides, as there has been cases of loyalist and Republican Fueds.

(Paddy (talk) 09:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC))

If there is any third side it is the RoI; definitely not the UK. Abd aren't you aware you cannot use the term "terrorist" in Wiki articles becaused it is regarded as a loaded weasel word? The root problem here is the attempt to squeeze a "battlebox" into a many-sided conflict that spanned 30 years. Like the ugly sisters foot - it can't be squeezed in! Sarah777 (talk) 13:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I disagree with the fact you concider RoI the only third side, but to be honnest the whole idea of a box is pointless as you are right there where many sides which changed over the 30 years. Maybe it would be for the best just to remove it all together.

(Paddy (talk) 15:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC))

Well Paddy, finally an area of agreement. This is def a better Wikiday than yesterday! I have seen numerous "wars" over attempts to add boxes, symbols, flags etc to articles that absolutely don't need them over a whole range of topics. Sarah777 (talk) 18:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah i noticed this isnt the first time this has happened, and best we all just find a practical sollution to the box. Well what would you suggest be done to it? Maybe just keep the main writing and the causalties, and remove the strength and combatants?

(Paddy (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC))


A list of participants; list of deaths - something dignified without flags or symbols; the harsh reality is we still don't agree on anything - from who started it; was it justified (or who was justified); who won; etc. (And obviously as there were many organisations involved - how many sides were there; the RoI and UK were by no means always on the same side; the OIRA swapped sides and some sides appear to be still residually active - waiting for the economic or global developments that will allow a re-match. It is too complex to reduce to a simple "battle-box"; for example you can get numerous British Government statements that both it was, and wasn't a war - depending on the context and what they were trying to defend/justify. And so on. Do you notice that there is something vaguely militaristic about the Wiki boxes generally? (Sarah777 (talk) 20:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
Thinking about it, there isn't really anything on the infobox to suggest that these people were on the same side, simply that there were there different types of combatant. Which is the case. It;s grand as it is.Traditional unionist (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"conflict was caused by the disputed status of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom and the domination of the minority nationalist community, and discrimination against them, by the unionist majority." this is a pretty bad analysis of the problem, and surely institutional discrimination should be emphasised or at least mentioned. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/troubles/the_troubles_article_01.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.32.22.123 (talk) 13:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Punishment Beatings

From what my relatives tell me about The Troubles, the threat of and carrying out of punishment beatings were significant, and had a huge effect on the people in NI. However I can't find much about it on Wikipedia. There is a sentence in the article. If there is more, can someone direct me to them, or link it to this page. Thanks. --81.132.243.176 (talk) 13:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable sources

Hi everybody, a proposal is being made to ease the current restrictions on questionable sources in the verifiability policy, in response to concerns that an Animal Liberation Front video was being inappropriately excluded from an article. I think editors here might have a useful viewpoint on this proposal. See Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge of Murder triangle

I have closed this AfD as merge to the Troubles. It was suggested in the discussion that the following sentence should be added here:-

"The area comprising East Tyrone, South Londonderry and North Armagh saw such levels of violence that it became known as the 'murder triangle'."

Would someone who know this article better than I please do that? Thanks. --Bduke (talk) 08:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Disambig"

Nothing of the sort. Using the unclear "Ireland" or "Irish" in this article only serves to confuse the reader and should not be done. Until Republic of Ireland is moved from its current location, that term should be used where there is any possibility of confusion. In this article, there's far too much possbility of confusion. One Night In Hackney303 00:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The article should be accurate. No ambiguiity. Please see Names of the Irish state. Redking7 (talk) 00:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I know full well what the names are. In this article Ireland and Irish are inherently confusing. One Night In Hackney303 00:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Clearly, I don't agree with you. I think United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland together with Ireland are even less ambiguous than United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland. To avoid edit wars etc. I'll add text in the Box to the effect that Ireland may be described to avoid disambiguity, as RoI. Anything less would not only be inaccurate but also mislead readers about the name of Ireland. Redking7 (talk) 09:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Redking7, you have now created an absurd situation, where you have piped a link to Republic of Ireland so that it displays as "Ireland", and then to explain away the confusion you have added the text "Republic of Ireland" in an explanation afterwards. I will now revert to the situation before you started this.
There have been many long discussions at Talk:Republic of Ireland on renaming that article. The latest one was only last month, and like several previous discussions there was no consensus to rename the article. Please stop this campaign to remove the phrase "Republic of Ireland" from any place where it appears. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I see that Domer48 has reverted already. Please stop edit-warring on this; you are already in breach of WP:3RR. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
So you're going to block him now, right? Lkike you did Counter revolutionary on the Monday Club?Traditional unionist (talk) 12:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I might be taken as an involved party in this case (particularly since I was a party to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles), so I have instead lodged a report at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Redking7_reported_by_User:BrownHairedGirl_.28Result:_.29, and noted that this page and its editors are subject to general sanctions per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles#Remedies.
BTW, on the Monday Club, I blocked both of the two editors who had breached WP:3RR. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Which was a blunt instrument to use in that situation. Two totally different situations, basically the same result, with different judgment calls made by admins who have no regulatory system to fall back on for best practice in use of blocking powers. It's all very whimsical.Traditional unionist (talk) 13:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
TU, it's fairly simple: per WP:BLOCK, blocks should not be imposed by an admin who might be taken as being an involved party. There is a heck of a lot more work involved for me in filing a 3RR report than in just imposing a block, but I took that course because I was trying to be act properly in accordance with blocking policy. If you have a complaint about the block of Redking7, then raise it at the 3RR report, and if you have a complaint about me then you should take it to WP:ANI or open an WP:RFC/U on me, but stop misusing this article's talk page to moan about enforcement of 3RR. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

In the info. box (and in the info. box only), I am going to add back in the full correct legal and proper names of the two states concerned: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland. I will also add in my additional text explaining that to avoid ambiguity, RoI can be used to describe the Irish state. This has no connection with the location of the RoI article (indeed that article sets out clearly that the name of the Irish state is Ireland - That is not relevant - This is an encyclopedia. The above are the names of the two states. Stating otherwise is inaccurate and misleading. For any one whose not sure about this, please see Names of the Irish state. If you disagree with my edits, please open a discussion - I suggest you call it Names of States involved in Troubles. If most people disagree with my fairly minor (but important) clarification, then I will leave it at that - the article will continue on with a misleading inaccuracy.

As for the discussion re my being blocked. I think User talk:Traditional unionist was indicating that it was unfair. I agree with him but don't want to get involved in 'personal' bickering. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Use of Ireland on any Troubles article should be avoided due to the risk of confusion. Please see WP:IMOS, which states when that structure can be used. One Night In Hackney303 21:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, any use of Ireland will create confusion in anything related to the Troubles article.--DavidD4scnrt (talk) 04:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with this box

The Troubles
Part of the history of Ireland

Map of Ireland at the present.
Date 1968–1998
(sporadic violence continues)
Location Northern Ireland.
Violence extended to England and the Republic of Ireland, as well as mainland Europe.
Result Military Stalemate[1]
Ceasefire
Good Friday agreement
St Andrews Agreement
Devolution
Belligerents
Sovereign state security forces

Flag of the United Kingdom United Kingdom
Flag of Ireland Republic of Ireland

 Irish Republicans Flag of Ireland

Provisional IRA
Official IRA
Irish National Liberation Army
IPLO
Continuity IRA
Real IRA

 Ulster Loyalists
Flag of Northern Ireland

Ulster Volunteer Force
Ulster Defence Association
Loyalist Volunteer Force
Red Hand Commandos
Ulster Resistance
Casualties and losses
British Army (excluding NI regiments)499

UDR & R IRISH 204
RUC301
NIPS 24
Territorial Army 7
Non RUC Police Services 6
RAF 4
Royal Navy 2

Garda 9
Irish Army 1 Civilians 1857*
Total Dead 3524*
[3]

 PIRA293
OIRA29
INLA44
IPLO9
CIRAN/A
RIRA2
 UVF 63
UDA 81
LVF 3
RHC 2
UR N/A

Apart from the simply incorrect (BHG and ONIH pl note) title of free Ireland used, why are the "civilian" casualties listed under "Sovereign state security forces" column? This would seem to imply the "sovereign British state" was at one with the dead civilians when in fact they actually directly or through their Loyalist agencies murdered most of them? Sarah777 (talk) 18:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

And of course BHG is totally correct in not blocking editors where there is a possibility of her being considered involved. This is a particular bugbear of mine and a most egregious example of the genre can bee seen here in the case of Tango v. Mongo (seriously). Sarah777 (talk) 18:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that the problem with the infobox here probably lies not so much in the content of the infobox as in the fact that it is being used on this article. {{Infobox Military Conflict}} may work well elsewhere, but it seems to me that editors here are finding the template to be too rigid a straitjacket to accommodate the circumstances of this conflict in an NPOV fashion. One example of this is how to classify the civilian casualties: Sarah777 sets out one view on that, but others would point out that the IRA also killed a goodly number of civilians. An infobox can't accommodate those differences in perspective.

An article does not have to have an infobox. If it's misleading, or if it's just causing edit wars, then it should be removed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't think I'm edit warring but I do think that these boxes, designed to cater for military battles are not really suited to prolonged guerrilla wars/insurrections/whatever. Is the invasion of Iraq considered a single war/battle requiring a summary box? What about Israel/Palestine? Both of these are still ongoing, one after 5 years and the other over 60 years. Boxcruft is almost as bad as flagcruft on Wiki. Sarah777 (talk) 00:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Sarah, I wasn't accusing you of edit-warring here; I was just noting that there had been a recent box-related edit war on this page, and I know you were not a party to it.
You're not the only person to object to boxcruft; some projects (Opera and Classical music, I think) have decided to delete all infoboxes. I think that's a bit extreme, because articles can fall within the scope of more than one project and it can create edit wars if a project gives the impression of claiming WP:OWNership, but I mention it to show that there is ample precedent for getting rid of an infobox. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
On many series of articles (I'm thinking of mountains, villages, rivers and lakes, roads etc) boxes are fine if they remain flag-free. On a visual layout basis - isn't that huge map (right) a bit OTT? Sarah777 (talk) 01:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think that there are many cases where infoboxes are fine and useful. But where they appear incapable of summarising the article without creating POV problems, I think they should go. And you're right, the map is far too big, but even the size parameter on it was reduced from the silly 300px, we'd still have the other problem of the box misleading readers about the complexity of who was on which "side". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The map isn't even that useful really. Political geography may be of some use, but not of primary use. It strikes me that there is almost a bit of conspiricy hunting going on here. Clearly, finding a space for murdered civillians will be tricky, but imperitative to this infobox. One would assume that a column-less row could be added to the bottom? Also, I assume that the source is Lost Lives? If so that needs to be made clear. If not - well, why not?Traditional unionist (talk) 15:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

TU, I do wish that you would assume good faith. I don't want any info removed, I just don't see that it is helpful to have it squeezed into an infobox when which nobody seems to be able to agree on an NPOV way of displaying it there. As one example, it makes little sense to place the IPLO and INLA in the same column when the two organisations killed so many of each others people. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Let she without sin.....I wasn't suggesting in any way that you were wanting anything removed.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
You'd really need a column on its own for the number of deaths resulting from INLA infighting..... One Night In Hackney303 22:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names of States in the info box

In the info. box (and in the info. box only), I have added the full correct legal and proper names of the two states involved in the Troubles: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland. I have also added in additional text explaining that to avoid ambiguity, Republic of Ireland can be used to describe the Irish state.

This has no connection with the location of the Republic of Ireland article (indeed that article sets out clearly that the name of the Irish state is Ireland). What is relevant is that this is an encyclopedia. The above are the names of the two states. Stating otherwise is inaccurate and misleading.

For any one whose not sure about this, please see Names of the Irish state. Its a relatively common misconception that Republic of Ireland is the name of the Irish state. I hope this fairly minor but important edit is accepted by all. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not acceptable due to confusion. On Wikipedia the name of the state we use is Republic of Ireland, just as we use Derry not Londonderry. One Night In Hackney303 21:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Redking7, you know perfectly well that this is a contentious issue, and should not have made such a change without seeking a consensus first. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

In case people might be confused about what I was proposing, the follwing is the edit I propose:

"Sovereign state security forces:

What is wrong with the above edit? Why is it contentious? Does any one disagree with its accuracy? Please give reasons if you agree or disagree. If you disagree, you might also set out your reasons why we should not explain what the correct names of the two States are. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

We use "Republic of Ireland", in the same way we use "Derry" not "Londonderry" We don't have to use correct names, especially when they are ambiguous. We don't explain Derry in every article its used in. One Night In Hackney303 21:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UDR

The members killed after they left are not accepted. The source cited says 197, and the article must reflect what the source says. The source doesn't include former members, so neither should we. Domer48 (talk) 17:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Then the source should be changed. The Palace Gardens Memorial lists these members as murdered as a direct consequence of UDR membership. Happy to leave it as it is until you can find a more accurate sourceGDD1000 (talk) 17:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

CAIN is *the* source for casualties during the Troubles, and the fact remains only 197 serving members of the UDR were killed. They are includes as civilians, as once they left the UDR they became civilians. The current method is factual and accurate, anything else is POV.--Domer48 (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, since you put it like that then I'll leave it. I don't want to POV push. I'm entirely against that concept. All I want to see is a nicely balanced article with no cruft in favour of ANYONE! If we stick to the facts I'm sure we'll get along fine.GDD1000 (talk) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit

I have removed various information pertaining to 1970 which has been added. Firstly it was a very selective addition, seemingly based solely on information designed to make the IRA look bad. Secondly some of the information (first female to die) is disuputed by other sources, including one I have added. Thirdly there was ample commentary added to what the source had said, and in the case of Short Strand made no attempt to explain the circumstances in which people were shot, instead presenting a very biased viewpoint. We do not tend to have such breakdowns by year for any other year, especially not one-sided (and therefore biased) ones, so I do not see why 1970 should be any different, but would welcome discussion about if and in what format the information could be added back, subject to it being unbiased of course. Also I have added back sections pertaining to the background which should not have been arbitrarily removed without discussion. In addition I have removed various tags added without explanation, ones that are not weasel words as far as I can see, and removed various unsourced information. If there are any questions about this please ask them here. Domer48 (talk) 07:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)