Talk:The Smiths/Archive 1

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Archive 1
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Contents

2004

Can we move the Smiths Station reference somewhere else in the article? It seems a bit obscure to put at the very top, even in tiny font. Acegikmo1 18:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I moved it back, Ace. Its just the standard way we do disambiguation. -SV 02:04, 2004 Jul 22 (UTC)
I find it highly unlikely that anyone would come to this page looking for Smiths Station, Alabama. Wikipedia:Disambiguation states, "Do not disambiguate, or add a link to a disambiguation page, if there is no risk of confusion. Ask yourself: When a reader enters this term and pushes "Go", would they expect to view any of the articles listed on the disambiguation page?" I can't imagine anyone typing in "The Smiths" looking for "Smiths Station, Alabama".
However, the redirect from "Smiths" to "The Smiths" and that fact that "Smiths Station" is also know as "Smiths" create a problem. Perhaps the proper solution would be to include a link to "Smiths (disambiguation)" at the top, though that doesn't seem quite right either.
Acegikmo1 02:31, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
That sounds right, actually. -SV

I'd like to humbly suggest excising or re-wording the "workmanlike rather than inspired" reference to Strangeways. The sentiment is open to debate, and the sentence it's in loses nothing with the phrase removed. ffirehorse 23:09, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to sound like a complainer. If the sentiment is important to the entry, please revert. ffirehorse 18:32, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Pretty Girls Make Graves" was from a line in Kerouac's Dharma Bums not a Hubert Selby Jr..

"Pretty Girls Make Graves" was from a line in Kerouac's Dharma Bums not Hubert Selby Jr..

2005

If I could casually mention: the vague republicanism mentioned in regard to Meat is Murder's Nowhere Fast is hardly that - "the line the poor and the needy are helpless and greedy" is attributed to the Queen seeing as how that quip is followed with "on her terms." Thus he explains just why he'd like to drop his trousers to her. Let me know if there's some other reason... Random Smiths Fan 10/19/05

Bigger group image?

Does anyone happen to have one that isn't copyright restricted? The current one is fine except for that it's a little small, and the copyright status is probably a bit of a grey area. --Hn 05:27, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

The new pic "almost" makes them look like a boyband. --Madchester July 8, 2005 06:12 (UTC)

"Most influential rock band after the Beatles"

More so than the Sex Pistols? Or Led Zeppelin? (I know most Smiths fans, including myself, aren't into heavy metal, but LZ and Black Sabbath have been hugely influential on a very large number of rock bands). I've just removed a few of the more over-the-top claims, and I think this also needs to be toned down. The Smiths attract a certain kind of over-dedicated fan, and this article should be encyclopaedic, not a gushing fansite. "Pioneers of indie music" is another dodgy phrase - there's a reasonable case for Buzzcocks having been pioneers five years before the Smiths started, but the Smiths signed to a label which had been putting out indie music for years already. If you're defining "indie" stylistically that's also debatable. --  ajn (talk) 23:13, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

NME named the Smiths the most influencal band a few years ago.

--Thischarmingboy 19:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Introduction

I've changed the introduction.

  1. "Pioneers of indie music" is just inaccurate - it's more accurate to note that they were signed to an independent label (in the 1980s, the qualification for being an "indie" band), and to note that they had a huge influence on a lot of what "indie rock" has since come to mean (e.g. Radiohead, Suede etc - never "indie" in the 1980s sense). I'd prefer to cut down the list of bands to half a dozen, too - are the Killers (one album), Libertines, Placebo and Doves really worth mentioning alongside Blur and Radiohead? Were Nirvana significantly influenced by the Smiths?
  2. Removed the Beatles claim - the list of bands undeniably influenced by the Smiths should be enough.
  3. "Many current indie, rock and pop groups aspire to the musical style of The Smiths, or draw much lyrical influence from Morrissey." - this is already covered by the "influence" sentence.
  4. No need to mention a "small revival of interest", is there?

Also, some work needs to be done on the The Smiths, Morrissey and Johnny Marr articles - there's information in all three articles which would be better-placed in others (e.g. M&M's birth dates, which don't need to be here). --  ajn (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd agree with most of what you say here Andrew. At present the article reads a little too much like a fan website rather than an accurate encyclopedia entry. The use of the word "indie" should be used in relation to the group being signed to an independent record label rather than a style of music (because there is no such style). I also agree that the list of bands influenced by The Smiths is too long and should perhaps be limited to a few significant players, but would suggest that The Libertines are probably notable due to their recent impact on British music and the similar 'Englishness' of style to The Smiths. However, Nirvana? Beggars belief to be honest! I think there are strong links with The Killers, but I'm uncertain whether they should be mentioned or not. They are certainly significant players on the current music scene and having only one album released so far should not necessarily be a barrier to their inclusion.
Kurt Cobain acknowledged The Smiths as an influence, I believe. In fact his famous TOTP performance where he sang Smells Like Teen Spirit in a very very low voice was 'inspired' (not sure if that is the best word to use here) by The Smiths and Morrissey (possibly their attitude towards pretending to perform live when really they were miming). SJH
Actually, the performance was more like Kurt MOCKING Morrissey than any type of tribute. The Smiths WERE NOT any significant influence on Nirvana, if at all. No one has yet to produce a single Smiths mention in a Kurt interview EVER, and the Morrissey reference in TOTP is attributed to a very small mention in Kurt's biography. Dave Grohl has gone on record to saying the band "hated the Smiths" which I think should end the debate.

Happy to see the back of the Beatles claim. It was perhaps a little overblown.

I've had a quick look at the Morrissey and Johnny Marr articles and agree that some work needs doing, but I'm uncertain what you mean by the dates of birth not needing to be there. This is a basic convention of an entry for an individual. They do need to be reformatted to fall in line with layout conventions, but they shouldn't be removed. However, if I have misunderstood then please explain. They should not, however be included in the first reference to Morrissey and Johnny Marr on The Smiths page. Valiant Son 16:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

What I meant (and probably wasn't clear about) was that the dates of birth need to be in the articles about the individuals, but not in the article about the band (Rourke and Joyce's dates aren't here). The Morrissey article is a real mess, especially the "miscellaneous" section, but it does seem to have a few things in it which would probably be better here. This article could do with some fleshing out, but it's really not too bad. --  ajn (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I understand now and agree wholeheartedly. I'm planning on having a crack at doing some work on these, but not sure when exactly. I certainly think the comment about Johnny Marr beginning his career as a footballer needs to be excised. He wasn't a professional footballer. He was a promising, but ultimately unsuccessful, amateur. So are thousands of others. It isn't relevant to his work as an adult. If it needs to remain at all then it should be entirely relocated. Valiant Son 23:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

First "indie" group

The word "indie" was already in use when the Smiths formed, so this is clearly not true. If people are going to insert claims that the Smiths were the first this, or the most important that, they need to provide some sort of reference - this may seem a bit anal, but Wikipedia is intended to be an encyclopaedia, and if you think the Smiths were important, sticking to the quality of information expected in an encyclopaedia is important. If they really have been (incorrectly) cited as the first "indie" group, where and by whom? --  ajn (talk) 15:27, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree, good call. --Hn 10:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Text/Graphical Conflict

I'd like to point out that the pink picture of Morrissey next to the passage that says that the Smiths dressed normally onstage amusingly contradicts the text. There's another picture that's in the article for "Shoplifters of the World Unite" that agrees with the text.

--Domukaz

Erm, he's just wearing a shirt. --Hn 04:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
All I'm saying is that it's a rather gaudy shirt for the statement right next to it that says that they dressed in ordinary clothes onstage. Domukaz 02:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
It looks like a plain pale blue shirt to me. He's wearing a necklace and has what looks like a brooch pinned to it, but it's hardly the sort of thing Boy George or Adam Ant would have worn. --  ajn (talk) 06:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
True, true. I guess the picture is more valuable than the text in providing a complete view of the topic at hand. --Domukaz

I think that the outfit Morrissey is wearing in the picture in question could not be accurately described as ordinary. Ordinary is a difficult (or impossible) word to define, however I don't believe an outfit is ordinary just because two of the most flamboyantly dressed artists of the new romantic movement would not wear it. I think it would improve the article to either change the photograph or alter the text. - JMJ

Because there has been no further discussion about Morrissey's outfit, I have changed the photo as requested by Domukaz - JMJ

Singles gallery?

I'm after opinions as to whether a singles gallery would work on the page. It would be quite a few images (16? 17?) but there are some really, really nice covers there and they do sum up the aesthetic qualities of the band quite nicely. Thoughts? I'm prepared to do the legwork if there's no strong objections and we can always get rid of it if it doesn't work I suppose. --Hn 02:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Editors Influence

Having listened to the Editors album, I must say there's an undeniable influence there. I think they belong on the "influenced by" list...any objections??? Chris 1127 10:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there's already too many groups listed to be honest. It's appropriate for a page on The Editors, but I don't think it really is for a page on The Smiths. --Hn 00:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Reunion

I am fairly certain that the Smiths did NOT reunite. I believe that was just a rumor. Is there a link to an article proving that they did in fact reunite? --jc2k6

  • They have not reunited. Folkor 05:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)