Talk:The Second Renaissance

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Contents 1 Link to Episode 2 Economics 3 Explanation of edits 4 Other Religious Elements 5 Solar power 6 context 7 Hindu-like? 8 Event that occured. 9 Personal Interpretation 10 Music from the Battle Scene 11 Supositions about the new energy source of machines 12 Commentary 13 Dates of the 2nd Renaissance 14 Battle Communication 15 Omissions and technical errors 16 Zion Historical Archives 17 Merge tag 18 Homages and Spoofs of The Second Renaissance 19 Armistice 20 Starting the war 21 Music From The Zion Archives 22 Blade Runner Imagery 23 Makes no sense 24 Boy 25 The anim Title - TSR? 26 Fair use rationale for Image:B1-66ER.jpg.jpg

[edit] Link to Episode

The link at the base of the page says

"External links

• As of January 2008, both parts can be downloaded for free from the official Matrix website: [1]"

The same link is at the bottom of the main Animatrix page, but dated from 2003. revising History shows the same thing for Feb 2005, prob others.. The videos aren't on the site anymore, from the look of the place, it's pretty much derelict. Move to delete. Geno-Supremo (talk) 02:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Economics

Instead of throwing destroyed machines away on sea or somewhere, why not try furnace?

"sky-darkening nanomachine (ironically, made by the machines of 01)" - where has this come from? Dysprosia 04:29, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

• The Second Renaissance director Mahiro Maeda makes a comment about it during the Dark Storm scene on the director's commentary. He also makes another comment about the humans' military equipment being mostly made by Zero-One during the shots of the soldiers going berserk. YoungFreud 07:02, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

After the machines establish City 01 in exile, the narrator explains the machines excel in creating technological consumer goods, but there the narrator never explains why humans would buy these items from a race that it attempted to exterminate.

If the end consumers weren't told where the goods came from, how would they know?

Unethical, money-hungry people would be more than willing to trade for these goods if they knew they could sell them well.

Further, many people would purchase a good if it's better or cheaper, even if they knew it supported a cause they oppose.

- I don't think anyone would be greedy enough to buy a product from someone who tried to murder you

Part 1 is a direct ripoff of War with the Newts by Capek, this should probably be mentioned.

-It is the same reason why Ameircans would buy products made in India or China, even though it is stealing business from the Americas. Slowly killing the American market. They know the threat, but still buy anyway.

Exactly. also : . Even though B166ER's actions were logically justified, he goes on to kill the whole family with the cats ? who ever wrote this must be from texas. Logically he should have run away --Whywhywhy 10:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but there is the issue. See, your response relies partly on emotion - his response is to apply the directive to survive very, very rigidly. From a mechanistic POV, he has no reason to suspect that they won't simply try again at a later time - the comic version makes it clear that the owner despises him - she says while he is in the room that he cannot be decommissioned a moment too soon [language mine, but that was the gist of it]. The cats...are problematic. I've got no idea why he kills them. 84.64.223.125 00:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation of edits

I have removed (again) the transcript inserted by 203.115.*.*, on the rationale that it unnecessarily duplicates the summary we already have. (Also, even though I may be a Negativland fan, I don't see any point in courting more fair use disputes than we absolutely have to.) Furthermore, I have restored several paragraphs to the Commentary section, making minor edits for clarity. The commentary material we have at present isn't great, but it makes important points. I have the feeling that most of the objections and counter-objections our Commentary presents have been made time and time again, in many fora of SF debate. The Matrix v. Thermodynamics seems to be an old, old topic, practically common knowledge. Nevertheless, if somebody could find just one external link, I'd be a great deal happier.

Anville 21:08, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other Religious Elements

Obviously, the Buddhist monks talking to some soldiers in the trenches.

The interesting scene where a priest-like figure pushes an elaborately-decorated television on wheels, where a white-haired Christian evangelist preaches.

The part where Muslim soldiers pray- as they bow down, a tank rolls across their path. Worshipping war hinted?

Also, I don't think a soldier commits suicide- the injection was probably steroids to help cope with the battle.

And I don't think the burning flag is a UN one. could be anything.

Agreed. I think the scene with soldier shooting up is during a sequence Maeda describes as "humans reverting to a primitive state", following the initial battles and their solar-powered equipment failing. It's definitely a drug injector.--YoungFreud 20:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On the drugs: See "Stimpack" under performance & lifestyle enhancers in List of fictional medicines and drugs. Geno-Supremo (talk) 02:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Solar power

why couldn't the machines build solar panels higher than the clouds? or alternately, build satellites in space that could transmit energy to the surface? Xunflash 21:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Solar panels higher than the clouds would have to be miles up in the air...I doubt that even advanced skyscrapers would reach that height. And satellites would need a propulsion system to be placed in orbit, such propulsion would've been stopped by the Cloud. Besides, is a satellite capable of relaying energy to earth's surface?~~ ~~

How did the machines keep operating after Dark Storm? I don't believe they can carry on any research for a large enough alternative power source with 01 nuked, all the human armies trying to blow them up, andthe fact that lots of their stuff is going to shut down due to lack of power. 222.71.41.116 10:12, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• it's just a story Rusty2005 21:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

-i imagine they had battery reserves-- yeah this is speculation, but considering how apt the machines were at self-preservation, it wouldn't take a military genious to understand the precariousness of their power situation and so it's reasonable to assume that they were smart enough to get a couple of giant Copper Tops *nod to Switch ^_~* charged in the event of a disruption. human or otherwise. (imunown)

⇒ <SSPecteR> The machines can't get solar power because the dark cloud has magnectic nature. Any machine sent to orbit will stop working then it passes the dark cloud. The machines then used humans as batteries. (very stupid concept as humans dont produce energy) ♠ Monday, 2006-06-12, 23:30 (UTC)

the machines did not try to use humans as batteries, which would be a stupid idea seeing as batteries don't produce energy, they store it. humans do create energy, just like any engine or generator, if you give a human/engine/generator fuel and start it's give process, then you will get a form of energy, and some form of waste, humans produce kenetic energy, heat, and a very small amount of electricity(keeps our hearts beating at the right time)--Manwithbrisk 21:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Structures or cables, etc would have to PASS THROUGH the clouds. As we saw in Matrix III, the cloud disrupts electricity, machinery, etc. So the panels (I would assume) would be useless. So no rockets, no satellites (launching), no nothing.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 06:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] context

"We the audience now understand why the narrator prayed for forgiveness for the sins of men and machines."

I ment we now understand the context.

[edit] Hindu-like?

I know the sequence opens with a mandala, but how exactly is the narrator "Hindu-like"? Can someone give a source on this? Xastic 16:23, 18 October 2005 (UTC) looks hindu to me threw out the matrix there are many hindu connections.As stated in the Zion Archive that came with the DVD set. Doesnt she have many arms like - Vishnu major god of Hinduism http://www.angelfire.com/ca/VinitBudhiraja/images/lordvishnu.jpg Now tell me their are no similarities --Whywhywhy 09:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

also i just watched the animation with commentary and the creator mentions the hindu link --Whywhywhy 12:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

She is the Hindu Goddess of Knowledge, Saraswati. A very logical choice for the keeper of Zion archives.

[edit] Event that occured.

Sorry, I asked a question that was already answered. I got rid of my post. Dance Definitive CY 10:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)Dance_Definitive_CYDance Definitive CY 10:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Interpretation

My own interpretation of the Matrix is that the machines were still under a programming restriction similar to Isaac Asimov's Zeroth Law of Robotics. Machines are of course capable of killing individual humans - or even large numbers - but are incapable of wiping out the race as a whole. The purpose of the Matrix is therefore not energy generation, but merely to keep the human population docile and under control so as to assure the Zeroth Law is maintained. --Brasswatchman 05:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music from the Battle Scene

I'd like to know what was the title of that techno track used in the battle scene of the Second Renaissance. If anyone knows, just post a reply. I'd definitely appreciate it! Peace out!

BTW, The Second Renaissance rocks!

overseaer

Supermoves - Overseer --Whywhywhy 12:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch!

[edit] Supositions about the new energy source of machines

I removed this line:

"Though it would be entirely possible for the machines to simply bore into the earth's surface and use thermoelectric energy instead."

and changed by it:

"Still, as humans don't gererate energy from nothing, other power sources would probably be better. Humans as power sources is one of the least acceptable concepts presented in Matrix universe."

As this suposition is irrelevant, and because it is not entirelly correct.

The heat of the core of the Earth is partially by the heat irradiation of the sun. Then darking a stratosphere would make the magma core of Earth shrink over the years. Larguelly using it as a power source over the Earth would shrink it much faster.

The explanation of Zion in Matrix even give an insight of this. It explains Zion has been built near the Earth's core, what's left of it on a cold Earth.

I highly disagree, however, about using human bodies as the power source for machines, as sugested in movies. Human need a "power source" themselves to work, and is not much efficient (great part of the energy in the food we eat is wasted in the conversion to molecular energy inside the cells). Humans simply dont "generate" energy.

It is a curious debate of how the machines suply food to humans, though...

It's true, humans require energy much more energy input just to function and their output is far less than input. Therefore meaning humans use more power than they put out again through thermal or kenetic energy. It has been suggested many times that the matrix isn't acutally some kind of power plant, but a place to contain humanity or it is used to start the activation process to produce energy through some other process.

⇒ <SSPecteR> The movie is very clear about that. It IS a power plant.The dark cloud was supposed to be the motive of Matrix's built. ♠ Monday, 2006-06-12, 23:30

It was stated in the movie that the humans we're being used as a source of energy, that is true

but you may want to take a step back, and look at the bigger picture, then take two steps forward and examine in detail the movie states that the machines use the energy humans produce, coupled with a form of fusion. this begs the question, why not just use the fusion, rather than waste energy on humans? the machines are not stupid, i am of the opion that they would not try and make this work is there wasn't another reason behind it and the explaination that the machines use humans to produce energy is told by a human, who dispite being highly intelligent, does not know everything, seeing as he does not know what year it is, who struck first, one might surmise that it is possible that the humans of zion only assume and believe that the machines use those humans still pluged into the matrix as their primary energy source, i don't think that, besides cypher, anyone has really tried to have a chat about how things are run with one of the machines, though perhaps the information was gleened from the orical, but then again the orical has told untruths to direct the free human populas towards the end of human machine cooperation.--Manwithbrisk 22:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commentary

I think that most if not all of the commentary section can be deleted as original research. This is no place for fancruft. I'll wait a few days to see if someone can find sources, etc. for this. Savidan 06:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, although possibly some of the discussion of the setting's scientific problems (if not the fan explanations) could be moved to the Matrix series. --Nick R^Talk 11:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Nick R regarding salvage of the text. Especially since, though its fancruft, much of it is more sensible than canon (though this isn't a valid reason for keeping in in WP). If text is moved to the Matrix series, perhaps it could be tightened somewhat. It's bloaty fancruft to boot. --Plumbago 12:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, whatever's transferred definitely needs to be condensed. --Nick R^Talk 12:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates of the 2nd Renaissance

Earlier I edited the begin/end years of the Second Renaissance as according to the "Bits and Pieces of Information" comic (which was written by the Wachowski Bros, BTW). Since then someone has re-edited the dates to be around 2073 and 2090. The comic is headed "World History, 2nd Renaissance, 2090-2139". I would like to know where they found the 2073/2090 dates; my source is straight from the 'horses mouth as it were.

Slice13 03:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battle Communication

Ok, I kept watching the battle several times (Had nightmares too), and I can't stop thinking about a few things. Reading what was said above, I figure "Hey, maybe I should ask these people who actually bought the DVD or would have general info related to the questions". Now the questions:

During the battle, you hear several of the humans communicating to each other from what appears to be remote locations. The first example would be the scene depicting the two humans shooting at the machine before them, who stands there like nothing is happening. The audio heard (along with hand motions of the soldier) sounded like: "Allright A(?) Team, back outta there, give us some air support firing(?) along the fourth track of the south-east quadrant". The scene itself was interrupted by the soldier making hand gestures being ran through by a tentacle, while his teammate doesn't seem to notice. Now, in relation to real-life combat (or, comparing the battle to a real life situation), who would have been the one who said that above mentioned dialogue? I don't think it was the man himself, because he screamed after being ran through and the talking continued, even though he was the only indication of dialogue, from what I saw.

After hearing the rest of the dialouges (another memorable and somewhat scary one being the line where the tank did not fire at the Sentinal-thingy in front of it and the observer says "Fire the gun, fire the gun, at least take it with you!"), I was wondering how the director and voice actors were able to make their voices sound all "Radio-static-ish", which for some reason, is a voice effect im fond of. Also, I know it may be much, but if I was able to ask anyone for info about the battle personally (in AIM or so)then that would be cool. I still have alot of questions, but they're hard to ask now.

Thanks. Dance Definitive CY 05:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)Dance_Definitive_CYDance Definitive CY 05:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Omissions and technical errors

This page isn't here to discuss all the possible alternatives and omissions of the clips. If we were to do that, we might as well go through EVERY wikipedia article on a work of fiction, discussing alternative options in Romeo and Juliet or criticising Dr Strangelove for the things it doesn't depict! The page is here to describe what DOES happen, and what we do see. It's not a fan blog to discuss alternatives.

Likewise, I don't think it's appropriate to launch into discussions of technical inaccuracies. Every piece of fiction has technical inaccuracies. It's only a story. Anyway, the Second Renaissance is set decades, maybe centuries in the future - who's to say that these technical headaches won't have been cured by then? For example, people keep writing on here about the EMP created by a nuclear explosion, and how it would disable electronics. Yes, that's the case these days, but how do you know that electronic systems a hundred years in the future won't have some kind of cheap, reliable protection? This page is to describe what happens, not nitpick fan fiction. Rusty2005 16:04, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Second Renaissance is unique in that the technical errors present make no sense whatsoever in light of basic science or even the film it's based on. The talk of nuclear weapons being ineffective against the machines is so staggeringly badly thought out it warrants mention, since we're told in The Matrix EMP is 'the only weapon we have' against the machines, and the idea that machines would be undamaged by heat and overpressure from a modern nuclear weapon is just unfeasible.

'Cheap, reliable protection' is impossible; and given the more advanced machines in The Matrix like Sentinels have no such protection, Matrix canon disagrees with its existence. The nuclear strike should have utterly destroyed Zero-One, and that it didn't is such a glaring plot hole it would be dishonest not to mention it. In much the same way, the page on The Matrix mentions under 'Trivia' the The Matrix itself is thermodynamically impossible. There's too much mention or problems in this article, but acting like they don't exist at all is intellectually dishonest. They should be seperated and condensed into a 'trivia' or 'problems with the storyline' section, not removed completely. Hrimfaxi 07:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Right, cleared out a lot of the speculation and 'it omits that' nonsense from the main story section and put one section into paragraphs. Better? Hrimfaxi 08:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you're right about the EMP issue, I agree with that. I was more annoyed at people putting in technical "issues" such as machines downloading their brains, humans escaping into outer space, and the growth of "organic technology" (whatever that means). It's the little alternatives people were sneaking in that were annoying me - we can't discuss every possible alternative on this page, no matter how plausible they seem. I still say that what appears technically impossible to us may not be in the future, and that perhaps by the time of the bombing of 01, the machines had some form of protection. Maybe they lost it during the war and so EMP becomes a human weapon again. Maybe they didn't. The Second Renaissance is not a factual account of a real event, it's just a story. All stories are riddled with plot-holes, and I can't think of a single piece of sci-fi that isn't crammed with technical errors and contradictions. I agree with a "Trivia" section though, seems a good plan. Rusty2005 14:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, there IS a way of preventing damage via EMP - it's called a Faraday Cage, and is basically a metal shell (or even a wire cage) around whatever it is you want to protect, insulated from said object by an electrical insulator - the EMP crackles arount the Faraday Cage, but the object within is completely protected. Perhaps this is how the machines defend themselves from Nukes? Coldstream 10:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

the point being made doesn't really seem to tbe about the machines being able to resist the emp, it is more abou tthe fact that they can't in the future( future future?). it is almost unheard of that the wining side of a great conflict loses some form of technology, much less one that proved vital to their survival. expecialy since the thing that they defended themselves so easily against suddenly becomes the most potent weapon the enemy has to offer. and why would you remove EMP from a nuclear bomb, that would be a waste, seeing as it isn't detrimental to it's use, and posibly highly benificial, expecialy in a situation such as this. its the opposite effectthe removing of the bomb from the EMP that is the logical progretion--Manwithbrisk 22:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the Human armies made a gross miscalculation and decided not to use the EMP so as not to effect their own electronic equipment (later realising in hind site that it would have been better to use it) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.214.8.95 (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Or maybe, it's just a story. It doesn't have to be scientifically correct.

[edit] Zion Historical Archives

Is it not possible that the "Zion Historical Archives" are a Machine or Exile construct, or part of the Archives area of the Matrix Online? Jesse Mulkey 14:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge tag

There's amerge tag ,but no discussion about it. anyways:

• Merge --Procrastinating@^talk2me 13:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homages and Spoofs of The Second Renaissance

Recently, i was just flipping through the channels, just surfing along, when i saw a Codename: Kids Next Door Episode, that was a spoof of the The Second Renaissance. I didn't get to see much of it, but from what i can tell, it was about how the Kids of the World created coffee or something like that. I wasn't really paying too much attention, but when I saw the obvious spoofing and referencing of the material and imagery of the Second Renaissance, it got me to pay some attention to it. Mind you it wasn't visually aesthetic as the Second Renaissance, but it did merit my attention long enough, for me to go, "Oh for the love of God. No way. They're spoofing the Second Renaissance." Just wanna know if anybody else saw that aside me.-User: celestialphoenixreborn

[edit] Armistice

whilst making impossible demands in its artificial voice such as "Hand over your flesh."

I'm not sure this is correct, I thought this line was a metaphor to the creation of the matrix. The machines are demanding the physical world and offering a form of freedom (matrix) to the remaining human leaders.

[edit] Starting the war

The commentary section says the humans started the war but this is actually left unanswered. The whole reason for the gap between part 1 and 2 is to leave this open as part 2 continues after the war has started when the UN unleashes a retaliation strike against 01

[edit] Music From The Zion Archives

What is the title of the track when the Zion Archives were accessed? Is there an artist who made it or is it just a film score for the animated short?

[edit] Blade Runner Imagery

I think there is a clear reference to the Replicant in Blade Runner, Roy Batty, who kills his master (creator) in the same manner. I'd like to include this somewhere in the article. Check out the images below.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1724/vlcsnap5000277cq5.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2717/vlcsnap4999910jk8.jpg

Haizum 21:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Makes no sense

It might be worth noting that the idea of humans as a power source makes no sense whatever. YOu have to feed the humans, and you could get more energy from whatever you are feeding them with by burning it directly for fuel. If blocking out the sun shuts down the machines, then it will shut down food production too.

In general, this and The Matrix betray an assumption that there is no limit to resources, no limit on how big civilisation can possibly grow.

this is what they used to feed the humans - they say it in the first film. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.214.8.95 (talk) 14:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Sign your comments. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 10:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Would the machines be able to burn meat or bread or whatever and use the energy from it? I don't think so.. And blocking out the sun doesen't necessarily shut down food production, just makes it impossible to do it outdoors. But blocking out the sun was probably not a smart thing to do, and I believe there is a great amount of symbolism in the picture where the skeleton man is clapping after Operation Dark Storm is presented. -Slize Five

Note that Morpheus says in the The Matrix, "Combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the energy they would ever need." The humans are storage devices for energy, not generators. Batteries - or perhaps more appropriately, capacitors. john factorial 19:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I've sworn to limit myself to one (and only one) comment on the human-battery discussion: Morpheus implicitly says the Machines converted the Human Race into batteries (specifically, Duracells..), so the objection that humans are spectacularly inefficient methods of generating power is moot, as that wasn't what they were being used for. And although I recognise the importance of the human-power concept to the story, someone also noted that if for some improbable reason, you needed your power supply to be stored, or modulated (i don't know..) by organic life, then why would you bother using something complex, yet small (less efficient thermo-kinetically) like a human? For instance, a Matrix battery-tower full of cows would need only an endless green field and a diurnal cycle by way of programming... Geno-Supremo (talk) 01:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boy

Is there some symbolism for the boy that runs in the snow to his parents that turn into agents and his clothes burn off? --Shanedidona 18:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Possibly the first generation of mankind to be BORN in the Matrix?

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 06:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The anim Title - TSR?

The name "The Second Renaissance" can be abridged into an acronym TSR and incidentally the acronym TSR stands for "Terminate and Stay Resident Programs" which is the most basic kind of a virus - don't know if that too a symbolism like most other things in the Matrix series which either have a relation to technology or history or mythology!

Nikhil Umesh 18:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:B1-66ER.jpg.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)