Talk:The Road to Serfdom

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[edit] NPOV: Recent edits

This page is heavily biased, to the point of being comical.The section titled 'positive reaction' includes, among others, the reaction of Keynes, Orwell and Attlee.Hmmm....some people never give up do they? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean-Baptiste Danzig (talk • contribs) 13:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The recent changes to this page have dramatically changed it from a set of statement of facts to an argument against Hayek's views. For instance:

  • "The Road to Serfdom is a highly controversial book" - certainly it was controversial when it was first published. Nowadays, I'd like to see a source for this.
Not controversial today? Are you implying socialism no longer exists today? Because any socialist, by the nature of his views, automatically disputes Hayek's claims.
That's a heck of a standard to overcome. By this reasoning, we need to edit the entry on Darwin's Origin of Species as a "highly controversial book." Just because a few blinkered fools cling to an outdated, discredited (try buying meat in Venezuela today) ideology hardly makes the opposiing arguments "controversial," especially when that opposition is based on observed evidence and sound theory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KartoumHero (talk • contribs) 12:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
  • "This would be disputable enough in itself" - an encyclopedia article should aim to present views, not say if they're "disputable" or not.
Well, a disputed view is a disputable view...
  • The whole thing with Soviet Russia, while it might be a valid argument, is nonetheless an original argument. Someone else must have made it at one point, can we actually get a source for it?
I'll try to look for one, because it certainly seems a rather glaring error on Hayek's part. But, at any rate, it seems reasonable that we should at least mention this fact even without a reference.
  • Regarding Nazi Germany, Hayek specifically backs up his argument by pointing to German government figures prior to WWII that shows government spending as a large proportion of the economy. Thus, "the majority of Nazi Germany's economy was in private capitalist hands" just isn't true. It's also an original argument, as above.

- RedWordSmith 19:34, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

The majority of Nazi Germany's economy was in private capitalist hands. Merely having a lot of government spending is not enough to make a country socialist (and government spending is not a "socialist" thing in and of itself - governments had a lot of spending thousands of years before socialism was ever invented). By Hayek's standards, all countries in the world prior to (and following) WW2 were "socialist". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 20:09, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As Ludwig von Mises first realized, economy of Nazi Germany was a case of de facto socialism even while means of production were nominally in private hands. Private ownership means nothing if the owners are denied their inalienable rights to use their property as they see fit, i.e. sell it, hire/fire workers, reinvest rents/profits etc. Nazi Germany did just this when they applied price controls, severely reprimanded owners for petty mistakes made in accounting, and made four-year plans. George Reisman elaborates on these points in his Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics. jni 07:16, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, the US has some price controls (in agriculture for example) and severely reprimands owners for petty mistakes in accounting. Would you call the US a 'socialist' country today? Most of the points above that you make about private ownership were allowed in Nazi Germany. Also the 'four-year plans' were much more similar to the New Deal than to Stalin's Five Year Plans. Yet was the US 'socialist' in the 1930's? Certainly not, as again, the definitions of private ownership were not violated. The Nazis did not nationalize most German companies. Fascism, after all, is a 'sham revolt,' in which a nation's true socio-economic elites are not displaced but a totalitarian system is set-up to cement their socio-economic status. Anyway, I started the 'criticism' section of the "The Road to Serfdom" entry in an attempt to make people aware that not everyone agrees with Hayek, as the article had seemed before, with only Churchill's and Keynes's comments supporting the book.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.20.72.214 (talk • contribs) 16:57, July 12, 2006

I see your concerns, and, on hindsight, I certainly agree that I have to rephrase most of my edit. But I also believe Hayek's more dubious historical claims (regarding the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany) should be mentioned as such. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 20:09, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is my definite impression that Serfdom is not nearly as controversial today as it was when it was first published; certainly socialism is still a strong political philosophy in the world today, however, to that extent, Hayek is no more controversial than any other critic of socialism (and there are lots of them). Simply stating that Hayek criticizes socialism should be enough to imply that socialists don't like this book. The Russian thing should stay once we find a good source for it, because, again, it's an obvious counterargument — but because it's such an obvious argument, someone must have made it before, and Hayek's critics should be named if their opinion is going to be in the article. I'm afraid I don't see how you can simultanously agree that majority of pre-Nazi Germany's economy was under government control and still say that the economy was run by capitalists. It's true that "government spending is not enough to make a country socialist" — but remember that Hayek was arguing against central planning more generally as well, and high government spending is (one) indicator that the government is directing a lot of economic activity; also, it's a bit hard to have a socialist economy without a certain level of government spending. At any rate, I think that improvements to the language of this article could change things quite a bit, so I look forward to seeing what you do with it. - RedWordSmith 21:32, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Should the end reference to J. Sachs be modified? Just mentioning "vibrant democracies" is perhaps not enough. What he meant more specifically seems to be Scandinavian countries. Then, these are democracies clearly, but whether there are "vibrant" or just slowly going down social uniformity and control is still a matter of debate. There is nowhere in Scandinavia the strong and diverse political debate to be observed in the US, rather a middle-of-road, make-no-wave attitude. The Scandinavian experiment in the welfare state is not concluded yet, it is still unfolding before our eyes. So, to conclude, should we suspend our judgement and say " more specifically Scandinavian countries, a conclusion which is still very much open to debate". As a European, I should pray Hayek was wrong, but I am not sure he was ... Oberlage 17:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I am quite disturbed by what I found here. If you have some valid criticism, cite it, but the wikipedia is not to have an editorial bias, especially not to the exclusion of needed info. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:18, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute

I'm going to be removing the header soon, unless someone objects. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 20:53, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good idea. This is Hayek's book, so I don't see any problem in that this article describes his POV. Few wikilinks are good enough for opposing views, there is no need to duplicate material that exists in other socialism articles here. jni 07:16, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Be aware that this article is subject to POV reverts, have a look at this edit, or this one. While we can remove the dispute, we cannot insure it won't be needed again when such edits are reinserted... I'll wait a bit longer, and remove it, but... I'd ask that you keep an eye on this page :)
[[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 10:51, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Originally published..."

This article claimed it was originally published in September 1944 by Chicago but looking at this page from the IEA suggests otherwise:

"The Road to Serfdom was published in March 1944 and, despite wartime paper shortages, it went through five reprints in the UK in 15 months. In spite of this, owing to wartime paper rationing, the publishers, Routledge, were unable to keep up with demand..."

www.iea.org.uk/files/upld-publication43pdf?.pdf

Johnbull 16:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Freedom/Serfdom

Is the title of the book The Road To Serfdom a responsive play on the title of another book that advocated socialism/totalitarianism called The Road To Freedom?

72.82.179.237 05:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC) That's very interesting! Joepnl 02:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem with Hayek's book is that serfs are private property

[edit] Hayek argues central planning must of necessity be tightly-coupled

User:Johnbull wanted me to provide some examples to back up my introductory sentence that "Hayek argues in The Road to Serfdom that central planning must of necessity be tightly-coupled..." Here are some relevant quotes from The Road to Serfdom (page numbers from University of Chicago 1976 paperback edition, my underline emphasis):

  • (pg. 64) "An economic plan, to deserve the name, must have a unitary conception. Even if a parliament could, proceeding step by step, agree on some scheme, it would certainly in the end satisfy nobody. A complex whole in which all the parts must be most carefully adjusted to each other cannot be achieved through a compromise between conflicting views."
  • (pg. 67) "The delegation of particular powers to separate agencies creates a new obstacle to the achievement of a single co-ordinated plan. Even if, by this expedient, a democracy should succeed in planning every sector of economic activity, it would still have to face the problem of integrating these separate plans into a unitary whole. Many separate plans do not make a planned whole---in fact, as the planners ought to be the first to admit, they may be worse than no plan.
  • (pg. 155) "We have seen that agreement on that complete ethical code, that all-comprehensive system of values which is implicit in an economic plan, does not exist in a free society but would have to be created."

137.82.82.133 22:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Johnbull, you either have a tin ear for language or you are being remarkably disingenuous. The "... need not be so" is supported by the whole rest of the paragraph and sourced therein -- Sweezy, Stafford Beer, and Simon and Ando. Beer and Simon and Ando don't reference Hayek explicitly (as far as I remember), but their TECHNICAL work speaks to the "tightly-coupled" issue. Please show some courtesy and stop MUCKING ABOUT with someone else's contribution. BTW the adjective is "marxist", not "marxian" which does not augur well for your command of english.--137.82.82.133 23:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The "need not be so" is stating as fact someone's opinion, which you can't/won't except but is nevertheless the case; I am merely correcting your mistake. Paul Sweezy's Wikipedia article claims he is a Marxian economist and the Wikipedia article for that kind of economics explains the differences between the labels "Marxist" and "Marxian", which you are evidently ignorant of. Perhaps that does not "augur well for your command of english [sic]".--Johnbull 23:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Touche on "Marxian" -- I just went to the dictionary to check whether it was valid usage, but was not quick enough to delete or otherwise apologise for my mistake. (Yes, arrogant sarcasm is always a weapon that can cut both ways.) My criticism of your focussing on a single phrase in the introductory sentence of my paragraph remains, however. The "need not be so", I regard as a highly reasonable usage justified by the rest of the paragraph, interpreted as "there are other possibilities or considerations" I didn't write "Hayek argues ... but this is definitely false." The key word is "need not." It is a fact (a la Simon and Ando) that hierarchial nearly-decomposable systems in economics refute Hayek that central planning (or control) must be tightly-coupled.--137.82.82.133 00:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I think your most recent edit is fine.--Johnbull 00:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Good! -- agreement after dispute. Best Wishes, 137.82.82.133 00:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restoring Sachs comment

I'm restoring the Jeffrey Sachs comment in the "criticism" section, for these reasons:

a) It is certainly criticism of the point of view Hayek presents in The Road to Serfdom.

b) There is a proper citation to a verifiable source that meets reliable source standards, so there's no doubt that Sachs actually said this.

c) Jeffrey Sachs is a prominent economist whose views are of some importance.

Now, it may well be that the criticism is invalid, or lame, or stale rhetoric. Certainly those who agree with Hayek will view it in this way. But a criticism section is intended to present views of people who disagree with Hayek, and whose views are reasonably representative of those held by a reasonable number of people.

This is a "criticism" section, not a "truth" section. That is we are saying that these criticisms have been made, not that Wikipedia certifies that they are objectively true. Verifiability, not truth.

It may be that this point of view can be characterized as typical of "anyone on the left of the political spectrum." If so, this merely underlines the point that it is held by a non-negligible number of people. This is exactly the sort of view whose inclusion is required by the neutrality principle. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Disagreements of a general nature about Hayek belong to Hayek's page. This is a page about one of his books, The Road to Serfdom, which essentially argues that central planning inevitably leads to totalitarianism, and which discusses the tactics usually employed by socialist economies to gain public support. This quote criticizes in no intelligent way The Road to Serfdom.
Also, if this quote is to be included, as general and rhetorical as it is, then anyone with a degree who has ever disagreed with liberalism or who has ever supported socialism could be quoted here. I will remove this quote unless I am showed wrong on these two points. ---Childhood's End 02:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The title of the section is Criticism, not Criticism which Wikipedia certifies to be valid. The issue is not whether you think Sachs' comment addresses the content of the book. Sachs directs it at the book. You think he's wrong and displaying an ignorance of the book's content. Fine. But the fact that you think his comment does not address the book is not an argument for removing it, any more than perceived flaws in other critical comments is a reason for removing them.
The previous item merely stated Sachs' conclusion, which, in isolation, could be considered empty leftist rhetoric. The context of the article, however, is an economic analysis of how "the high-tax, high-income... Nordic social democracies" have actually fared, compared to the "Anglo-Saxon" states.
Let's get some consensus here before removing a properly cited, well-sourced remark, that specifically references Hayek's book, from the criticism section. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
First, where did I say that I think that Sachs was wrong? Please explain. Second, there is absolutely no reference about the "Nordic social democracies" in The Road to Serfdom, which proves that Sach's article is directed at liberalism, which he personifies in Hayek's thinking, and absolutely not at his book The Road to Serfdom. Please suggest to add this quote on Hayek's page, or on liberalism page. All the other critics that appear here are relevant to the book. Not this one.
Perhaps you strongly agree with Sachs and really want to show his comments on a page concerning a book that you do not agree with, but there has to be a relevance criteria. Otherwise, articles and data showing that the Nordic social democracies actually do not work as well as socialists would like us to think would belong here. --Childhood's End 15:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Childhood's End 15:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not add the Sachs quote, which seems to have been in the article since November. I noticed that something had been removed from the "criticism" section on the grounds that it was invalid criticism. That raises a red flag with me, so I checked it out, and determined that it appears to be a) criticism from b) a notable economist who c) says it is directed at the book. You continue to give, as your reason for removal, that Sachs is mistaken in thinking his critique has bearing on the book. Fine, but that is your opinion. It still amounts to removing criticism because you disagree with the critic.
Please get some other editors in on this discussion. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

Should a comment by a notable economist, Jeffrey Sachs, who says he is criticizing Hayek's opinion that high taxes are a road to serfdom, be deleted from the criticism section on the grounds that they are not a valid critique of the content of the book?

The deleted comment was a reference to Jeffrey Sachs (2006-10-26). The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology. Scientific American. Retrieved on 2007-01-13. 16:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I am very leery of deletion of material from a criticism section, when the criticism is well-sourced and from a reasonably notable economist, on the grounds that the criticism is invalid. I understand completely that the editor who removed it says it is invalid, not because it is wrong, but because it is not directed at the book. However, since the critic refers to the book, I believe the critic is criticizing the book. I therefore do not believe the item should be deleted without first getting clear editorial consensus that the Jeffrey Sachs does not intend his criticism to be interpreted as criticism of The Road to Serfdom. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • First, I do not disagree here with Sachs comment. This could be done elsewhere and I provide no basis to disagree with him here, and it should not be done. But I have read all Hayek's books and this quote absolutely refers to all of them and to the whole concept of liberalism, and certainly not at The Road to Serfdom in any specific way. Sachs refers to the general concept of "road to serfdom", not at the book itself, which are two different things. As I said, I think that all the other critics on the article are valid here. This one should be proposed on Hayek's page. If we provide Sachs' support for Northern social democracies here, there is an obvious case for providing counter-evidence as well, and this is way behond this book's page scope in my opinion. --Childhood's End 18:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • For somebody as important as Friedrich Hayek, we should not mention the critics of a "small fry" like Sachs. There should be some sort of more or less equal level in notability between the critics and the criticized. This is like mentioning a critical view of Einstein by a school teacher of physics! It is fine to criticize famous people, but it should be by comparably notable people. Alain10 19:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
    • By this logic, the only criticism we should allow on Wikipedia of heads of state should be comments made by other heads of state. Sachs is an extremely important economist in his own right; he's been a top advisor to most of the world's leading economic organizations (see article) and has taken a direct role in forming economic policy for several countries. Even if he's not as important historically as Hayek (and Sachs is still fairly young for an academic) it's absurd to call him a "small fry" and say that one of the most influential economists alive shouldn't get his say in. Andrew Levine 22:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm late here, but this is still listed on the RFC page. I note that the line deleted from the current online versions of Sachs' article (eg [1]), "...Hayek suggested in the 1940's that..." (still seen here [2]) is noted as a misattribution of the date of of Hayek's suggestion. Is there any correspondence on this correction? Unless Scientific American is confused about the date of publication, or the text changed after 1949, it seems that they don't believe that the subject of Sachs is the book. Dpbsmith, please clarify why you believe "the critic refers to the book", if you still do? Looks to me like Sach's comment belongs in the Hayek article. Andyvphil 07:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
    • There is correspondance here: [3]. This is a letter written by Sachs in response to William Easterley's review of Sachs' book. In it, Sachs specifically names The Road to Serfdom as a target of his criticism and clarifies that a Hayek-penned 1976 preface to Serfdom specifically said that welfare states will suffer the same problems as planned economies. Andrew Levine 22:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I dont see your point... in your quoted correspondance, Sachs says : "my detailed paper on the Nordic economies makes explicit that Hayek's critique of the modern welfare state came in the 1970s, in the Reprint Edition". How could his quoted criticism here be directed at The Road to Serfdom, which was published in 1942?
Just to clarify things, here is what Hayek says in his 1976 preface : "At the time I wrote, socialism meant unambiguously the nationalization of the means of production and the central economic planning which this made possible and necessary. In this sense Sweden, for instance, is today very much less socialistically organized than Great Britain or Austria, though Sweden is commonly regarded as much more socialistic. This is due to the fact that socialism has come to mean chiefly the extenisve redistribution of incomes through taxation and the institutions of the welfare state. In the latter kind of socialism the effects I discuss in this book are brought about more slowly, indirectly and imperfectly. I believe that the ultimate outcome tends to be very much the same, although the process by which it is brought about is not quite the same as that described in this book."
It seems to me that this discussion was mostly about the evolution of the meaning of the word "socialism" between 1942 and 1976. Also, Hayek clearly says that his book "The Road to Serfdom" was not addressed at the kind of socialism established by Sweden and the likes, although he does say in this preface that he believes both kinds of socialism shall tend to lead to the same results, one going to it faster than the other. Thus, I dont think criticism to a preface written 34 years after the book is within the scope of this article.
As a sidenote, I think that Sachs underestimates what Hayek meant when he said "brought about more slowly...". History is proving Hayek right as years go by. France is falling. Sweden and its neighbours are still somewhat prosperous thanks to the anglo-saxon aspects of their economy, not thanks to their welfare institutions (reading Assar Lindbeck is interesting about Sweden). --Childhood's End 14:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
How could his quoted criticism here be directed at The Road to Serfdom'-- You just quoted a passage where he says it. Sachs specifically cites the 1976 edition of TRTS, which includes a clarification by Hayek in which he makes it plain that what he says in the book also holds true for welfare states.
Also, there's a lot of trumped-up talk going in the anglosphere (especially by The Economist and the Financial Times) that "France is falling" economically; but most of it is based on looking at inaccurate economic indicators. (For example, unemployment rates are unuseful to compare from country-to-country due to different ways of counting them, but France has the same employment rate for workers aged 25-54 as the U.S.[4]; its GDP is rising at 3.5 times its population growth, same as the U.S.; and as a % of GDP, France's budget deficit is about half that of the U.S. Is the U.S. failing too?) And the statement about "Sweden is doing better because their economy has more liberal aspects" is just cherry-picking, because some aspects of the French economy are more Anglo-Saxon than, say, Sweden's (for example, Sweden has a considerably higher VAT and higher taxes overall; Sweden has fully state-provided single-payer healthcare while most French citizens purchase private insurance to supplement what the state gives; etc.) Andrew Levine 20:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
There's a difference between the book itself and a preface written decades later. Such a preface is not even part of the book, it's a little candy given by the author some time after the initial publication. Sachs only refers to what Hayek said in the 1976 preface (see Sach's explanation that I just quoted). As for the debate about the welfare states working or not, I cant convince you here and I'll leave it to time showing who's right or wrong... (by the way, yes, the US are slowly falling... their plundge has started much later than other Western countries thanks to a good Constitution whose true sense has now been forgotten). The 21st century will be that of the new surging free market economies, China, Hong-Kong, Singapore, and the likes. --Childhood's End 14:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nazism

I have changed "Naziism" to "Nazism" - can someone check and revert if I'm wrong, also add a comment "sic". Rich Farmbrough, 15:49 15 August 2007 (GMT).

They are both the same thing. There are popular references to both spellings and dictionaries often equate the two Archie888 (talk) 06:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)