Talk:The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (documentary)

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[edit] Urban myth?

I recall reading somewhere that, mysteriously, this documentary has never been shown on television in the USA. Someone please renew my faith in freedom of speech in that country and tell me that isn't true, is it? 86.136.3.135 06:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about that, but I know it has been shown on RTE and BBC, but the makers wanted to release it as a feature but couldn't find a distributor. Seabhcán 14:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if it has ever been aired on an American Network but it was shown on the CBC in Canada. (Hedel)

I was told that in the university class where I saw it, and to add insult to injury the professor added that the film was first turned down by American distribution. The only people who distributed it (at that time anyway) were European. 200.108.27.63 13:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This would be easy to verify - there are about 5 major networks in the U.S. - ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN (possibly MSNBC). Check their websites, call them, send them email. I also heard that none of them aired it. I'm a Chomskyite, so I would be amazed if anyone did show it. But check for yourself. Our press is free to do what they want, but they never do anything that would be bad for profits, like showing a capitalist plutocracy (U.S.A.) orchestrating a coup against a democratically elected socialist president in our own hemisphere. (IMHO)

I know that The Amnesty international didn't dare to show it on their moviefestival in Canada, becouse the opposition in Venezuela (who did the coup) "couldnät guarantee the safety for amnesty members in venezuela". That's horrible.

[edit] Critiscism is not really that valid

I recently decided to watch all three documentaries about the Puente Llaguno events. I highly recomend that you watch them in this order.

"Puente Llaguno: Claves de una masacre" The best documentary by far (Revolution is only good for the inside Mirflores cameras and that is it IMHO), they chronologically construct the event masterfully using EVIDENCE (they use the sun dial trick only once) ie they look at a range of pictures and check the watches, they use audio syncronization with the cadena to determine the exact minute of the famous Venevision video, they check the date stamp from digital cameras indy cameramen give them, etc. Show extra footage etc. A must see but it is a crying shame it is only in spanish.

Found here download the 5 segments individually the big one is not working

X-Ray of a Lie. It exists to debunk Revolution, I was initially perplexed since I saw Revolution after "Claves de una Masacre", and could clearly see that it was NOT 1:00 or 1:30 the first clue was that the Chavistas were taking cover and were not in the middle, those that were were in prone position, there was also a dead body in still 2, and there was clear shooting going on, that said they did contradict themselves on the video a few minutes later saying it happened in 5:30 according to their calculations (sun dial, wich is not that accurate specially if they are meassuring personal shadow angles and the blood stain color of a dead occured at 4:40pm). The 2nd part was added later, when they were aware of the mistake they made in the original documentary. That's why this 2nd version begins at 33:12 with "Grabado posteriormente al foro" (recorded after the forum) and it corrects the previous version without removing anything from from the original documentary. Additionally it reveals another manipulation made by "Chavez - The Film" : the picture was electronically enlarged to remove the armoured police vehicle the Chavez supporters were shooting at.

Revolution will not be televised. It is a good documentary but would skip the first part unless you are completely new to the subject, when the action starts (after puente Llaguno) inside Miraflores.Flanker 15:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The shadow

see the crowds
see the crowds

The two screen shots puzzle me. The first one seems to show people on a sidewalk with wavy lines and behind a wall casting a shadow. The second one shows the sidewalk with the wavy lines again, but no wall. Look at the line on the street below. It runs right up to the sidewalk, so there is no wall there. But then, what is is casting the shadow? Since in the tropics shadows can move very fast, especially when cast by a high building, this is very relevant. Of course, this is very easy to check for someone who lives there. Just go to the bridge at that time of year and record at which times such shadows are cast.

Also, I've uploaded a shot that zooms out a bit more, with thick crowds huddling together at both sides of the bridge. If this was shot earlier, before the shooting started, then what are they hiding from? DirkvdM 19:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That is the problem in X-ray of a lie they show TWO different times, one 1:30 and the other 5:30 the skeptic in me says that this is typical of the venezuelan oposition they think that the more critiscism they fling the more likely they are able to convince, even if they contradict themselves. The second shot definitely happens after the shootings as in the Revolution wnbt there are clearly people shooting. Try watching puente Llaguno documentary (part 4 I believe) they show a similar shot but from a handycam and synchronize it with the movement of the people to the exact time of the shootings, the crowds are huddled as well away from the middle.Flanker 01:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The whole "shadow" thing in X-ray of a lie is pure rubbish. First of all, as was rightly noticed by one reviewer already, they first claim (pay particular attention to the ridiculous "experiment" with the battery, where the alleged shadow at 1.30 is practicaly only towards west, only shorter (notice that at that time the angle of the shadow is, of course, much bigger then 15 degrees from the west-east axis, as the shadows should point in north-east direction, but with a much bigger angle), very "scientific" indeed), and then they claim for the frames showing exactly the same position of shadows to be taken at 5.30. The only thing true here, as is perfectly clear and undeniably proven by comparing the frames for the shadows thrown by the same objects (take notice that Schalk contrives his fraud by comparing a shadow of one object in the first frame with the shadow of an another object in the second frame, a clever trick as he does the comparison fast and moves on swiftly, it took me at least four viewings to notice the scam at all) is that the second frame must have been taken shortly after the first (taken the date and the geographical position of Caracas, most probably around half an hour). The whole 1.30pm presentation is therefore vulgar charlatanism posing as "scientific proof".

Yaah I am thinking of making a timeline, the two shots are no more than 30 min apart, and they attack the documentary for being dishonest. Flanker 23:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, if there were anti-Chavez protesters under that bridge at the time of the shooting, why don't they show them in their movie? No footing available? How is that possible?Because nobody of anti-Chavez protesters passing through the street at the time brought a camera with them to film the event? Yeah, right. X-ray of a lie is nothing more then a shamless hoax.

[edit] Given that we are actually watching the documentaries as opposed to reading an article

How would one interpret a visual cue that is not OR? I believe we should only state what the narrator states as if it were audio.Flanker 02:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Venezuela Bolivariana: People and Struggle of the Fourth World War

Any of you who dispute that the police (who were anti Chavez) fired at the protesters then you clearly haven’t seen the documentary "Venezuela Bolivariana: People and Struggle of the Fourth World War". It is freely available here: http://www.archive.org/details/Venezuela_Bolivariana_VEN_2004 alternatively you can watch it online here: http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-1797179074001054188&hl=en-GB fast forward to 54:00. at 54:22 it shows that a police water cannon cleared the street below the bridge at 3:54pm at 54:29 it shows people running away from the police at 4:00pm. This also shows the protesters up on the bridge. in the background. at 55:57, there is a photo of the police about to start shooting at the protesters on the bridge. at 56:03 it shows footage from the bridge of the police under the bridge. at 56:29, it shows a Pro Chavez protester being shot in the head from a long distance, the time on the hand held camera is 4:20pm. However this is not on the bridge. This basically shows that the police were shooting at the pro Chavez protesters. It also shows footage from under the bridge, behind the police.

So yes there were people under the bridge, running away from the police water cannon and tear gas. You can see that when people under the bridge are running away from the police, those on top of the bridge are looking down, they are not firing, or ducking. Then the police open fire on the Chavez protesters on the bridge. Then the protesters fire back.

X-Ray of a lie is a lie. But generally people will believe what they WANT to believe, rather than the truth (hence why you get UFO sightings, and people assume that they are aliens rather than rational explanations). This can be argued on both sides. Personally I believe that the protesters were the victims here, not the police. Chavez would hardly order the police to fire on the protesters that are supporting him. Yes he lost control of the police, however this was a coup, and the police were under the control of the coup leaders.

The police were in control of Alfredo Peña, the metropolitan mayor at the time and a political opponent. Flanker 12:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article's lack of content

Controversy aside, I came to this article to refresh my memory on the content of the film itself. Even if the film is inaccurate, the first priority should be to discuss that content, and the discussions of accuracy should come later. I think readers would appreciate if someone who has seen the movie more than once would fill in the necessary details and worry about the criticism afterward.

200.108.27.63 13:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Could point. Technically, a portrayal of the content should be the first priority of the article. It is after all an encyclopaedic article and the purpose of such a resource is to provide information on the subject (in this case the film), NOT to spend the vast majority of the article discussing the films legitimacy, which should really be discussed elsewhere (an internet forum, a politics website, a movie mistakes website, etc.). I guess this is one of the current major flaws of Wikipedia though, too many people are more interested in pushing their point of view on others rather than informing as a more traditional encyclopaedia would aim to do. Wikipedia is not an essay website and it is not movie-mistakes.com. Sadly I very much doubt the article will be refocused for the reasons I have given. Canderra 23:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
On this note I made an edit to the caption of the picture of Lucas Rincón announcing Chávez's resignation on TV. It said "It is argued that this event was not shown in the documentary". I removed the "It is argued" as that is not a point for argument. If you've watched the documentary (which I have), you know that that speach or any reference to it was completely ommited from the documentary. Jesús 15:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone improve the shadows section?

I can't make out with certainty what either side is claiming about the shadows on the bridge. What does each documentary claim, and what should I be looking at in Frames 1 and 2? (Please answer by improving that section of the article, not by replying here.) Gronky 13:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

For example, in Frame 2, I can't see the wall that is casting the shadow - maybe just because the picture quality is poor. And the picture claims to show a shadow which is cast wider than the wavey white road markings, but the other shadows in the picture are cast from right to left and this width is measured from top to bottom. Can someone please fix the article to explain what I should be looking for? Gronky 13:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that WP editors cannot do original research; we can only repeat "x-ray" arguments which are very difficult to understand. I think "x-ray"is just a hoax. --JRSP 18:23, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I can try to explain: the Irish documentary says it happened at H-hour (during the march) in order to discredit this X-ray initially claims it happened on (H-hour - 4) based on one shadow, but a little while later claim it happened (H-hour + :30 mins) based on another shadow. We can only post what they say even if it is more misleading than not knowing their claims at all.Flanker 21:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Somebody who wrote this article did not understand the shadows part of the "X-ray" documentary at all; it never spoke about the railing shadow, but about the surrounding buildings' shadow instead. I corrected that information on the article. Lenineleal 23:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
As I understood in the X-Ray documentary, the originally claimed, the shooting at Llaguno bridge happened at 1:30 around, because they interpreted one shdow as a shadow of a building, wich it wasn't, but of the crowd. So afterwards they introduced a 2nd explanation (i wonder, why they didn't remove the wrong part, maybe to say, that they were wrong, but it's part of the original). This 2nd said, it happened at 5:30 around, according to a blood stain and the shadow length taken from the people there. And to think, it's a hoax only because they are wrong about one thing (everyone makes errors, no?), it's a bit harsh. Especially because "the revolution will not be televised" has more to offer than this one part, and X-Ray proofed, that they were lying in more parts than this one. Example : The media were quiet afterwards. Check the archive of "El Universal", wich is full of critics of Chavez, but they wrote at 12.4.2002 that Carmona dissolved the AN and it's wrong... and and and...--190.77.33.252 22:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I've re-organised that whole section. I haven't changed any of the information - I couldn't, I haven't seen X-Ray or Puente. What I did was I put the related information together. So rather than one paragraph saying X-Ray said it happened at 1:00, and another paragraph saying X-Ray said it happened at 5:30, I made one paragraph saying that X-Ray said it happened at either 1:00 or 5:30, and that they have evidence which proves each claim. Gronky 20:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
What are these red lines in the frames supposed to proof? The first measures the shadow from the bottom of the railing to the edge of the shadow, the second one from the top. Am I missing a point here or are we measuring with two different standards?  Channel ®   13:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Further, who added the red lines? Obviously, they do not come from "The Revolution...". Are these snapshots from other film or were they altered by an editor to advance a position? JRSP (talk) 19:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Everything but the video?

This article discusses awards, criticisms, counter-criticisms, and reception, but I just realised that it does not mention the content of the documentary :-) If anyone has the time, please help. Gronky 12:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "needs infobox" tag

This article has had its infobox tag removed by a cleanup using AWB. Any concerns please leave me a message at my talk page. RWardy 17:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No original research

The subsection "Documentaries, for and against" is 100% original research. In my opinion, it is used as an excuse to promote two non notable films, one contradicting "The Revolution..." theses and another supporting them. First of all a proof of notability of these films is needed, otherwise they must be considered fringe views that do not deserve a place in WP. After that, their support or criticism must be supported by secondary reliable sources, otherwise, it would be original research and therefore not allowed per Wikipedia core content policies. Please do not restore this material unless you can provide reliable sources to support it. JRSP (talk) 11:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The secondary reliable sources are the documentaries themselves. They are not fringe views, both cause quite a stir, among many other things, one must remember that a planned screening of the film was canceled by the organizers of the Amnesty International Film Festival given the arguments against the film. http://www.democracynow.org/2003/11/6/the_revolution_will_not_be_televised. Please do not remove content that provides key information about the reception of the film. This sections are common in film pages.Caracas1830 (talk) 20:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The documentaries are not secondary but primary sources. Working directly with primary sources poses 2 problems: 1) The notability of the sources has not been established, it must be proven that they "provide key information about the reception of the film" and 2) Interpreting or synthesising a source is not allowed per WP:NOR. The solution for both problems is finding secondary reliable sources commenting on the films. Otherwise, the unsourced material should be deleted, I don't think that "this sections are common in film pages" is an excuse for keeping unsourced material in violation of wikipedia core policies. JRSP (talk) 23:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The docs were made and exist only because "The revolution" was made. The interest of a writer must be to contribute, expand and enrich articles, as they are done in the rest of wikipedia, not to censor material that ones does not agree with. Caracas1830 (talk) 07:41, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
One more thing. This is from the Style Guide of the WikiProject Film with respect to the content that should be included with respect to the reception of Documentaries. "Documentaries present a special case, as they present themselves as recounters of fact. Therefore criticism of content ought to be included if it is presented with reasonable documentation and if there is evidence of public awareness of the controversy. Responses to such criticism should likewise be presented on the same basis. The existence of a public controversy ought to be acknowledged whatever can be said about it; the publicity is by nature citable, and omission creates the false impression that the subject matter is uncontroversial." [1]. As I said before, our effort, as writers must be to expand the content.Caracas1830 (talk) 07:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
You said The interest of a writer must be to contribute, expand and enrich articles, as they are done in the rest of wikipedia, not to censor material that ones does not agree with. This would be true if we were talking about notable information supported by secondary reliable sources. I am sure that WikiProject Film recommendation that criticism of content ought to be included is not intended to supersede WP:NOR. There would be no problem if you added criticism supported by secondary reliable sources which may include or not references to "X-Ray". The problem is that "X-ray" is a non-notable film which received very little attention. By the way, I'm also deleting material based on "Puente Llaguno" which actually supports "The Revolution" points, my intention is not to suppress criticism, the only thing I ask is that criticism and praise be supported by reliable sources and not by a couple of non-notable documentaries. Both "X-Ray" and "Puente Llaguno" are self-published material and cannot be used to make claims about third parties, Wikipedia is not a soap box. JRSP (talk) 11:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Per the request for third opinion by JRSP - My opinion is that the section The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (documentary)#Documentaries, for and against is WP:OR based on primary sources (i.e. the documentaries concerned). I'd advise Caracas1830 to locate secondary reliable sources to support the section. Thanks, Nk.sheridan   Talk 23:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, Caracas1830, I don't appreciate my edits being labeled as "vandalism"[2]. Please check Wikipedia:Vandalism#What_vandalism_is_not. In fact, according to WP:V "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." JRSP (talk) 01:51, 13 June 2008 (UTC)