Talk:The Princess and the Frog

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Contents

[edit] Sources

Are there any non-blog sources for the information presented in this article? WP has been rather strict on not using LaughingPlace or JHM as sources for WP articles. SpikeJones 13:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

See WP:SELFPUB for reference, for those who were not familiar with the WP policy.SpikeJones 12:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Reading through the "history" section, it doesn't read as a history of the film, but a history of the release of news, almost like a list of released rumors. The sources and when and how the information was released are not important to the article. 208.203.4.140 17:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is a more reliable source Yahoo News - Disney's upcoming Princess film to have black heroine . 208.203.4.140 17:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Can someone provide a non-blog reference to use in place of the BET ref? The provided link is to a rotating series of daily news stories, and the Disney article is nowhere to be found there anymore. In the meantime, I've removed the BET link and have replaced it with a Fact tag as the citation is still needed. SpikeJones 18:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "black" vs "african-american"

Might as well make a decision on this early as a group, then we can stick with it for sure. News articles have used the term "black" to describe Maddy, as well as the pc phrase "african american". The disney press release [1] and the transcript from the announcement during the shareholders meeting both use the term "african american". Certainly we could go either way with this on wp, but the question is whether the disney press release was purposely trying to be politically correct or if they purposely are specifying that the princess will be american. would this alienate non-americans who would view a new "american" princess differently than if the princess' description was "black" instead? i know wp doesn't censor quotes; is WP supposed to be pc in its terminology? not all blacks in america are african-american, and blacks in other countries aren't necessarily referred to as (for example) african-swedish or african-british. so, with all that being said, which term should we officially use to describe maddy here on wp? SpikeJones 03:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

if it helps, this is a start of WP's guidelines on usage that we can refer to: WP:STYLE#IDENTITY SpikeJones 04:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It is simple; “Black” refers to people who are the decedents of the original inhabitants of Africa (regardless of what country they currently reside). “African-American” refers specifically to Americans who are the decedents of the original inhabitants of Africa. Thus, the terms are interchangeable when referring to Americans with African ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.175.42.81 (talk • contribs) 02:57, 16 March 2007
Personally, I prefer African-American, as it's more specific than Black. Since Disney uses 'African-American' in their press releases, I think we can safely assume that Maddy is actually an American with African ancestry. Lunapuella 08:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I certainly agree with your reasoning, aside from one thing that keeps bothering me about the term in this instance: I think this is the first time that Disney is specifically stating that a princess is "American", as opposed to being from a generic country. I'll grant that Mulan is from China and Pocohantas is obviously an American Indian, but Disney didn't promote either of them as "their first Chinese princess" et al. Yes, Belle lives in France, but she's not advertised as Disney's "French Princess". (Technically, I suppose that Mulan and Pocohantas aren't officially princesses, but they do show up at the occasional "meet the princesses" events. Your guess is as good as mine.) The main point is whether Disney is using the term specifically because they are trying to be PC, or if it was an on-purpose use. If only we had a way to find out for sure other than reading items from a PR flak. Offical AP style guidelines say to use the term "black". When the term African American does appear, it is to be without hyphens, and occasionally within quotes. The reasoning behind this is that the publications using AP style have international readership, and the term "black" is more internationally accepted.SpikeJones 12:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
But why would you use African-American? There is only one other American princess, Pocahontas, just call her black because that is what she is. I know she is African-American too, but saying that gives the impression that all the other princesses are American. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.225.206.193 (talk) 03:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

Yeah, Pocahontas is presently the only American princess (she IS an official Disney Princess by the way, as is Mulan). I think Maddy should be referred to as black seeing as she is just that, the first black princess. There's never been a black African Disney princess and again, all the other princesses aside of Pocahontas have been from outside America.

But Maddy is not the first black Disney princess. Aida from the Disney musical Aida is the first black Disney princess. Maddy is either the "first African-American Disney Princess" (since Aida was not American but Nubian) or "first black animated Disney Princess." I didn't want to change it without a consensus from other users.--K Lady112 18:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The term 'Disney Princess' generally applies to princesses from the animated Disney classics. In this light, Aida is not considered a Disney Princess, and Maddy is the first black Disney Princess. Lunapuella 20:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

'Disney Princess' is referring to the princesses from films within the Disney animated features canon whom Disney execs have decided fit into "The Princess Mythology" and are thus included in The Disney Princess Franchise. This is why Mulan is considered a Disney Princess even though she has no ties to royalty whatsoever (but fits into the mythology), but actual princesses such as Maid Marian, Princess Eilonwy and Princess Kida aren't included even though they are from films within the canon and are actual princesses (they don't fit into The Princess Mythology). nemeses9 8:25, 01 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems clear from the films setting (New Orleans) and the wording of the press release ('African American') that the film is set in a real place and time period, so the character is intended specifically to be African American and not just a generic dark-skinned woman from a made up country.81.109.221.53 (talk) 16:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2D?

There seems to me to be a discrepancy in this article and the article for Rapunzel. Both films claim that they'll be the first 2D film since Home on the Range. Which is correct? Rapunzel comes out first so if they are both 2D then that film should get to use the title.

Frog Princess is the latest full-length 2D film from the Feature Animation division. Rapunzel is (a) not a full length animated film, and (b) the animation is not being done by Disney Feature Animation. The last 2D animated film to be released by Disney was the Heffalump movie, but since that didn't come from Feature Animation, that's why Home on the Range is listed as the last 2D Disney film. The Rapunzel article needs to be corrected if it states that it's a full-length film. SpikeJones 02:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Rapunzel Unbraided is a 3-D film, not 2-D.

[edit] Maddie vs Tiana

So the USAToday article this week [2] says that the movie is NOT called "The Frog Princess" but rather "The Princess and the Frog" and that the princess is Tiana. Aside from this article, have we seen anything from Disney that supports these changes yet? If so, we will need to move the article, along with updating the references to Maddie that may appear elsewhere on WP. SpikeJones 04:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Before the article gets too complicated, we may want to rewrite the opening paragraphs to properly reflect "Tiana" is the character going forward even though the referenced footnotes (at least the early ones) all refer to "Maddy" as the lead character. Maybe this would mean moving those footnotes elsewhere in the article? Obviously, the section talking specifically about the history of the original casting call sheet and the New Orleans announcement during the 2007 shareholders meeting would all refer to "Maddy" as that is what the character was called at the time. SpikeJones 04:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Hm. I have a possibility. Suppose they go for a mystical angle, and have the character's common name be "Maddie", but her true name be "Tiana"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.53.107 (talk) 01:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

A previous edit removed the link to the IMDb news page claiming that the website is not a valid source because it's user-edited. While this may very well be true for the IMDb's trivia pages, the news pages are NOT edited by IMDb users, and in fact, an older IMDb news page was still being used as a source (to back up the info that this film will feature traditional animation as opposed to CG), but THAT page was not removed. I can't see any reason why this source was removed other than to deny that any name/occupation change has occured. (63.215.27.132 19:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC))

The IMDB's news is used all over Wikipedia as a valid source. There is no reason to remove IMDB press release links. Rebochan 14:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casting Call

I want to know why this warning is listed in the Casting Call section:

#################################################### NOTE: ALL EDITS TO THIS SECTION THAT DO NOT MATCH THE ORIGINAL CASTING CALL SHEET IN THE LISTED REFERENCE (OR THE ORIGINAL NEW ORLEANS ANNOUNCEMENT) WILL BE REVERTED. ####################################################

Because some of the information in that section is incredibly dated and needs to be updated. But if someone's just going to replace correct information with bad information, why bother? Rebochan 14:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Because this film has had some changes from the original New Orleans press announcement to the character names/film title. The original casting call sheet is a historical reference to this old material (especially in light of those subsequent changes). IF this article is going to contain news references regarding the changing of "maddy" to "tiana", then the casting call sheet serves to show what was originally used. The information in the casting call sheet is dated because it is for an event that occured in the past. It's historical information. Changing it would be like removing all references to "Mortimer Mouse" entirely from the Mickey Mouse article. Mickey was referred to as Mortimer along the way. Similarly, Tiana was referred to as Maddy... so we refer to a document that shows this. SpikeJones 15:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
It needs to be better integrated into the document then. Perhaps there should be a character list, with the casting call name and information also referenced but with more preference to the current information. It seems superfluous to have the casting call sitting there in a void on the page with blatantly incorrect information. Rebochan 19:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
As long as there is a distinct mention of the name and character description changes that refer to the historical casting call document (including original cast descriptions, as necessary), then I would find that an acceptable compromise. It would certainly keep the history of the film announcements, along with a way to track the changes made to the film along the way (as such refered to in the ref'ed USAToday article). SpikeJones 21:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps using a table format would help (character / description / as originally proposed) SpikeJones 21:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
A table format would be better - I was just more concerned with the text first and the format later. I can whip up a table and place that in there.Rebochan 13:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Character Section

This section would replace the "Casting Call" but still retain the information the sheet listed as historical information on the film's production. Below is how it could look:

[edit] Cast of Characters

This is a list of the film's currently revealed major characters. Most of the information comes from the original casting call sheet[1]. Some information has changed since then and as the film is still in development, will likely continue to change.

  • Tiana† - The 19-year-old heroine.
  • Charlotte La Bouff - An 18-year-old spoiled, southern debutante and diva.
  • Dr. Duvalier - An African American Voodoo magician/fortune teller. The villain of the movie.
  • Mama Odie - A 200-year-old Voodoo priestess/fairy Godmother.
  • Ray - A lovesick Cajun firefly.
  • Louis - A 20-40 year old Jazz singer alligator. Comic, manic, high-strung.
  • Prince Harry - A gregarious, fun-loving European Prince, in his early twenties. A young Cary Grant type.
  • Lawrence - Prince Harry's pompous valet.
  • Big Daddy La Bouff - Wealthy, Southern plantation landowner and father of Charlotte La Bouff.
  • Eudora - Tiana's mother. In her fifties. Used to be Charlotte's nurse maid.
  • George - The La Bouff family's cook.
  • Little Arila - Tiana's little sister. She's little, but very smart.

†Originally named "Maddy" on the casting call sheet and listed as a chambermaid. Both details have been confirmed as having changed in development.

[edit] Question About Including New Production Information

I was at a Disney event earlier tonight where I had the chance to talk to John Musker, one of the directors of the film, and he gave me some fairly up-to-date information about how production on the film is progressing, along with a new inclusion to the crew list. I would add the information to the article, as it is unquestionably authentic, but I am afraid it would be considered original research since it was not published somewhere but told to me directly. Can anyone help me out with this? LainEverliving LainEverloving 04:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. Information in WP must be citable by unbiased verifiable 3rd parties. See WP:CITE for details. Otherwise, information posted could be considered WP:OR. Remember that WP is not a fan site and everything that's listed has to be cross-referenced in some manner or other. This is why information on future, unannounced movies is continually reverted or speedy deleted until the citable references are located. Just because YOU and I know that something is going to happen doesn't mean we can talk about it here. SpikeJones 12:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
That's what I figured. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the official crew announcements (which shouldn't be too far off now). Thanks anyway for the response, though. LainEverliving LainEverloving 08:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] individual character pages

Are we already at the point in this production that we feel the need to separate out individual pages for each character? While it is certainly something that should be done once the movie is released, is it really necessary to do so at this time? Anyone have any comments before a *merge* tag is added to these articles? SpikeJones (talk) 23:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Paper or paperless

For the moment, it is probably best to wait until it is clear if the movie will be produced as using paper or tablets, or both; http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/animation-on-paper.html 84.48.35.203 (talk) 14:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] first black princess?

wasn't jasmine from aladdin black?Black6989 (talk) 00:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Black6989

No, she was Arabian, like nearly the entire cast of Aladdin. Lunapuella (talk) 19:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
i know she was arabian but what ethnic orgin are they? indian people are still black are they not? so arabian people are also black. just because shes not from africa or has descendants from africa doesnt mean shes not black. arabic a langue and nationality is it not. while black is an skin colour. jasmines skin colur was what is classed as a black person.Black6989 (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Black6989
I don't think Indian and Arabian people are classified as black. At least I have never seen or heard them classified as such. Black is not so much a skin colour as it is a race or ethnicity. Note that the Wikipedia article on Black people says that the term is used to define a "racial group". In that sense, Princess Jasmine is Arabian. Lunapuella (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)