Talk:The Plot Against America

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The article seems to take it as a given that Lindbergh was "anti-semitic." This is certainly not born out by Lindberg in his private life or from family and other sources in his immediate circle.

In his controversial Des Moines speech, and apparently no actual transcript is available, Lindberg criticised three groups he believed were leading America the push to bring America into the war. These were the Roosevelt administration, the British and the jews. There is no reason to believe he thought all jewish Americans were pro-war and his belief that jewish Americans were more pro-war than their non-jewish countryman may even have been true, although I have seen no opinion poll data to prove an argument one way or the other.

A large number of jewish americans at the time probably had good reasons to seek American intervention, Lindberg sought to win them over to the anti-intervention camp. He believed that war would enflame ethnic and political tensions at home and that this could not be in the interest of minorities.

Roth and other pro-interventionists, then and now, preferred to twist Lindberg's argument into a threat. This ignores thw well documented fact that many isolationists and pacifists were, ...perhaps misled by the experience of WW1, anticipating that World War Two, would bring depression, and perhaps even revolution and civil strife in it's wake. Looking at what happened globally after WW1 this was a not unreasonable expectation.

The article fails to pin Roth for ignoring the reality of a massive pro-war campaign by the both the Roosevelt administration and the British Operations (including BSC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Security_Coordination ) to bring the US into the war. These operatives were certainly keen to exploit any opportunities that came their way (including Lindbergh's gaffe?) and were not above dirty tricks (discussed at http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?issueID=25&articleID=285 ). Without context it gives less than half the story. In Roth's fantasy world there are no pro-war forces, only bigoted anti-war politicians.

At the same time, other comments from the time from FDR that could just as easily be interpreted as anti-semitic are forgotten.

For example, here is FDR quoted in JOSEPH E. PERSICO's "ROOSEVELT'S SECRET WAR. FDR AND WORLD WAR II ESPIONAGE." Random House NY 2002

Quote from Page 219-220

"After the North African landings, succeeded, the President went to Casablanca and, in a meeting with the French resident general at Rabat, delivered an astonishing opinion. "The number of Jews engaged in the practice of the professions- law, medicine etc.- should be limited to the percentage that the Jewish population in North Africa bears to the whole of the North African population, " he urged. "This plan would further eliminate the specific and understandable complaints which the Germans bore towards the Jews in Germany, namely, that while they represented a small part of the population, over fifty percent of the lawyers, doctors, school teachers, college professors, etc, in Germany were Jews." He had echoed the rationale that the Nazis had carried to barbaric limits." (Italics added)

Persico's cited source for this is: p.308 Francis L. Loewenheim, Harold D. Langley, and Manfred Jonas, eds., ROOSEVELT AND CHURCHILL: THEIR SECRET WARTIME CORRESPONDENCE New York: Saturday Review Press / Dutton 1975

In fact Lindbergh's Des Moines speech sounds tame in comparison. (see http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/lindbergh/filmmore/reference/interview/anne06.html and http://www.charleslindbergh.com/pdf/092441_lindy.pdf )

Of course this does not "prove" FDR was anti-semitic or the opposite. His opinions didn't seem to stop him appointing Felix Frankfurter to the SCOTUS, who was the third jewish Supreme Court justice (Wilson appointed Louis Brandeis and Hoover appointed Benjamin Cardozo before him - source: http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-jewish-american-political-figures). Similarly Lindberg's opinions didn't stop him from having a close personal and business relationships with jewish friends like aviation pioneer Harry Guggenheim. He found Henry Ford's anti-semitic views distasteful.

The whole game of retroactively applying the standards and tabous of modern politically correctness to historical figures is playing a stacked deck to begin with. In FDR and Lindberg's day language the modern era's sensitivity to ethnic group labels was unknown. Lindberg's desire to keep America out of war was wholly honourable, even if in historical retrospect we may consider it ill advised.

The above quote is useful in defending Lindberg from modern deck stackers. Can you imagine what Roth would say if Lindbergh had said this? He has no qualms in charging Lindberg and Borah of promoting pogroms without the slightest evidence, ..and engages in some anti-Catholic bigotry of his own. Does Roth want to run some pogroms of his own? His political fantasy is just a travesty of history.

[edit] Alternative History as a Mode of Science Fiction

I just had somebody revert my addition of the "science fiction" category to this book. I realize that there is considerable prejudice against calling a novel by a mainstream writer "science fiction"; but that doesn't change the fact that alternate history is an old and honored branch of that genre, even if sometimes prettified by calling it "counterfactuals" or other labels. I don't want to get into a revert war; but I'd like to see the revert reverted--Orange Mike 18:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

To quote the Science fiction article: "Science fiction is a genre of fiction in which at least part of the narrative depends on the impact of science, either real or imagined, to generate settings or events which have not yet occurred in reality" (emphasis added). Roth's novel has no speculative science in it, not even any non-speculative science. I don't know how it can qualify as science fiction without the science part. Much alternate history qualifies as science fiction, but there is much that doesn't. --dm (talk) 19:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
That article is part of an 80-year-old argument about what is and isn't science fiction. This novel received the Sidewise Award, which is given out at the World Science Fiction Convention every year, and juried by a panel of science fiction fans and writers interested in the alternate history subgenre of science fiction. I'm sorry if we offend you by getting scifi cooties on this book. --Orange Mike 04:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I like science fiction but I also like Wikipedia to be accurate. Have you read The Plot Against America? It bears no resemblance to science fiction in any way. It is completely lacking in science, a necessary element of science fiction. While there's no formal definition of the genre, if this novel qualifies then it's hard to imagine what doesn't. I contend that alternate history is a separate genre from SF. Who gives out an award is irrelevant. The Nobel prizes are awarded by Swedes. That doesn't make Orhan Pamuk Swedish. Can you supply a source that calls The Plot Against America "science fiction" explicitly? --dm (talk) 06:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
If you're seriously interested, I could list URLs for dozens of sites discussing alternate history as a major subgenre of science fiction. I will quote one such, because it addresses the attitude that I'm seeing:

"I've known since the buzz began that a lot of critics would be going out of their way to explain how Philip Roth's alternate history novel isn't science fiction--Berman does it by positioning Roth in a 'tradition' of Jack London, Nathanael West, and Sinclair Lewis--and Roth himself professes, " I had no literary models for reimagining the historical past," which actually isn't that surprising as I don't imagine Roth's read much science fiction in his adult life. Michael Gorra in the Times Literary Supplement goes a step further: "The Plot Against America offers a plausible description of a world that never was. It may not be one of Roth’s four or five best books. But nobody else would even have tried it..." Really? How about The Man in the High Castle? How about...oh, never mind. Anyway, I'm thrilled that Handler came as close to calling the novel "science fiction" as he could without actually using the forbidden words." And at AlternateHistory.Com one can read: "...Alternate History novels, which are generally categorized as a type of science fiction." Science fiction has outgrown the Hugo Gernsback days where gadgets and inventions drove the plotlines; it's about alternate realities and imaginative novels discussing what happens if you change the givens of the universe, whether by inventing a faster-than-light drive or imagining a proto-fascist America. --Orange Mike 15:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll concede that many, perhaps most, people with an opinion on the subject consider alternative history a subgenre of science fiction, but one should acknowledge that many others think it's a separate genre entirely. Understood broadly enough, all fiction changes "the givens of the universe." That's what makes it fiction. An interesting facet of The Plot Against America is that it describes an America not that different from the real one. It's an anti-Semitic America, but, I would argue, not "proto-fascist." I think it's telling that the writer you quote admits later in the essay that he hasn't read the book. --dm (talk) 10:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting edits of anonymous editor 24.48.182.26

I removed a criticism section that was simply a list of historical events not in the novel at least one of which occurs before the events of the novel. This is clearly POV. Any criticism needs to be sourced and attributed to a serious publication. --dm (talk) 12:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)