Talk:The Phantom of the Opera (1986 musical)

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Below text moved from Erik The Phantom of the Opera by consensus at Talk:Erik The Phantom of the Opera to be merged with this article. Please merge whatever is useful:

In Andrew Lloyd Webber's broadway musical The Phantom of the Opera, Erik is seldom referred to by his real name, simply called "The Phantom" by all. Every person in the Paris Opera fears him, including Christine Daae, the beautiful young singer whom he so desparately wants to marry. Erik appears an insane monster, filling the Opera with his maniacal laughter whenever he wishes to frighten the Opera goers and remind them of his power. Through all this, the Phantom is still able to cry at Christine's feet and beg for her love, as humble as ever. His character is an ever changing one that reflects his many years underneath the Opera as a man simply deprived of a normal human life.

-- Graham ☺ | Talk 21:56, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

To whoever moved the "I Remember.../Stranger Than You Dreamt It" to after Magical Lasso, you are thinking of the movie and not the stage version.

Chris Glew 20:29, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Most stagings, including that of Hal Prince..." Is there any staging of ALW's Phantom that hasn't been directed by Prince?

Malfourmed 02:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

"they are often collectively known as the greatest musicals in history". While the success of the CamMack "poperettas" is inarguable and while I personally do agree that one of these shows is indeed the greatest musical in history I've removed this statement for NPOV reasons. Rodgers & Hammerstein, Stephen Sondheim and others have claims at least equally as valid to such a title.

Malfourmed 07:02, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Who thinks that all the info on songs should be removed? The original edit was awful (but re-inserted after I'd removed it) so I decided to re-write it and fix the errors and grammar in it and get feedback here. I think the info should go, really.

Chris Glew 14:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

There is no need for each song to have a page telling everyone what it's about. The idea of Wikipedia isn't to provide information on each song within a musical. If nobody posts here then I'll put each article on the Votes for Deletion page in a few days.

ChrisGlew 12:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

There's also no reason for Wikipedia NOT to have information regarding each individual song. There'd be no benefit in the individual pages nonexistence, so why even campaign for it? --Nevah Entitar 19:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

If there's going to be a description of the circumstances surrounding each song (which, unless there is an unusual 'fun fact' involved, seems tedious), the same should be done for everything from Hairspray to Mamma Mia, and that seems kind of silly. Polyhymnia 07:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Exactly. The official policy is that "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information". We don't need info on each song and it's not suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. ChrisGlew 14:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention that as they are right now, a lot of those pages are simply copied bits of the libretto, which is a copyvio. Mademoiselle Sabina 17:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] longest running show in Broadway

You should add that info on the page:

http://www.phantomgala.com/

ZeroJanvier 00:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC) (I'm on the french wikipédia, my english is very bad)

[edit] Article in need of attention

This article is in dire need of attention. Not only are the song descriptions totally unnecessary (and not what Wikipedia is for), the list of notable actors is far too long and half of them aren't notable. Unless there are any objections I shall remove all the un-needed stuff from it. ChrisGlew 16:14, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I, um, agree. I think perhaps a list of songs and characters would be fine, but what's there is far too long. I have tried to fix up the text, in the meantime. Mademoiselle Sabina 21:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drastic measures

(edit), OK, I have tried to fix this article up. Here's what I have done, and why.

  • Everything in the article now has a citation from a reputable source. self-explanatory.
  • All of the actors are GONE. Why? 1) the information for both Broadway and West End actors are available off-site at the links (RUG, POTO official site). 2) There's no prescendent for this in other Wiki musical articles. 3) It was way too long and too subjective. "Notable" actors became every actor; and there was no way to omit one without ruffling feathers from their fans ("why did you remove Actor X but keep Actor Z; Actor X is better and more notable, etc..."). Crawford and Brightman are still there because they're the originals.
  • Infobox. I was only able to find a template for a Broadway box. I wasn't trying to exclude the West End folks, but I couldn't find an infobox for that. If there's a combination box or another one for the West End that can be added, go for it. I've left it out for now.
  • Songs. Since every song has a page of its own, it was not necessary to give them each individual descriptions here.
  • Some links are gone. Why? A) Wikipedia is not a link farm. Links must contribute to the article in some way. b) Links from fan sites, no matter how nice they might be, are not considered verifiable sources on Wiki and therefore can't contribute. c) Ditto for message boards.

I hope this is OK with everyone. I'm eager to see this article in shape, so I've been bold. Mademoiselle Sabina 08:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


Good job. This page was teetering the brink into fandom. I've been wondering why each song has its own page; "Stranger Than You Dreamt It" is in no way notable outside of the show. I think we need to follow the guidelines here, get most of those pages removed, and incorporate their information into this article in some sort of synopsis. Some of them are dangerously close to copyvio as they contain a major portion of the lyrics, and they are, on the whole, unnecessary. -- MusicMaker5376 00:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you! I was honestly afraid to touch this article because I didn't know what kind of backlash there would be from the fans. I agree with you, though, looking at those song pages, they have to go. They're copied sections of the libretto. I'd say that perhaps a rewritten "Music of the Night" and "All I ask of you" could stay, but the rest aren't really necessary and should be put up for deletion. I'll work on trying to draw up a synopsis that would incorporate the material. This article will get in shape yet. :) Mademoiselle Sabina 08:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I concur in spades. "Music of the Night", "All I Ask of You" and perhaps "Think of Me" deserve pages -- they've been recorded by several artists outside of the context of the show. Those articles are all unnecessarily descriptive of the action onstage. They should mention that they're from POTO, note who sang them in the original company, and note their subsequent recordings. Anything more is unencyclopedic persiflage. Once you've got the synopsis done, I'll be happy to mark them for deletion.
The synopsis should be short -- one act could take up the entire page of one of those articles. If you need a little guidance, check out the synopsis of Godspell. (I think it's good, but I wrote it, so you shouldn't really go by me....) It's much longer than would be necessary here; a lot more happens in Gspell. But it integrates things nicely....
And don't hesitate to hit up my talk page if you run into any dead ends or need any help along the way.
-- MusicMaker5376 18:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Lol. I just read your userpage. You won't need my help.... -- MusicMaker5376 18:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh! But many of those song pages refer to the Phantom as "Erik". Since he's never called that in the musical (nor, I believe, in Leroux's novel) he shouldn't be named here, either. (I don't know where that came about....) -- MusicMaker5376 18:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Again, good job. You're right, the synopsis is quite long, but I don't think it superfluously so. The link for the Masque of the Red Death goes to some Dungeons and Dragons page, and I'm sure that's not what you intended, so I'll fix that. I'm also going to slightly change the characterization of the Phantom: I don't believe it's ever established in the musical that he's an architect, nor do I think it's confirmed that he was disfigured from birth. I'll take your word for it that he's named Erik in the original novel -- I haven't read it in many, many years. I don't think anything from the Kay novel should be here, either. Since it was written after the musical and WELL after the orignal novel, it can be considered apochryphal. -- MusicMaker5376 04:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you! The one thing I changed back was the thing about being disfigured from birth--in the musical there's a line about how a mask was the first piece of clothing he ever had, and Madame Giry also mentions that he was born disfigured. There's a persistent myth that the Phantom was disfigured by acid; so I thought it was important to mention that wasn't the case. Thanks for redirecting the Masque of the Red Death link, too--no, I didn't have the D&D Masque in mind, but the Poe one!
ITA about the Kay novel. I don't hold much stock in it myself, but a lot of fans seem to consider it the final work on the Phantom story and characters. Mademoiselle Sabina 05:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
"A mask, my first unfeeling scrap of clothing...." Of course! Brain fart.... -- MusicMaker5376 05:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh! And working on the AfDs for the songs. -- MusicMaker5376 05:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Song articles AfD

The AfD for the various songs can be found here. -- MusicMaker5376 18:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Pre-recorded lyrics

In the trivia section it states that pre-recorded lyrics are used during the title song due to the physical demands of the staging. I have heard the recorded music by itself and it only contains drums, organ, and 'choir' noise.

Body doubles are used during part of the scene (not difficult since the figures are cloaked and sillowetted) so the main actors are able to stand in the wings and sing easily.

The actors are not in the wings singing. They do use body doubles during certain sections, but that's so the actors have time to ascend the travelator and run around to the boat. The supplemental music and the vocal tracks are separate, and are mixed during the show (makes sense, since the Phantoms and Christines change). Mademoiselle Sabina 19:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the Phantom's name

I noticed that the following was deleted from the article: Although the Phantom's given name in the original Leroux novel is Erik, the character is neither referred to by this name nor listed as such at any point in the musical.

I'm putting it back, because it's an issue that has arisen before. before the article was cleaned up, the Phantom was referred to as Erik-this and Erik-that; I thought it was therefore important to clarify that he actually doesn't have this name officially in the show, and that is why it has not been used in this article. Mademoiselle Sabina 02:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (1986 musical)

Why is this page at The Phantom of the Opera (1986 musical) instead of just The Phantom of the Opera (musical)? I'm not aware of any other musicals of this name; in fact, The Phantom of the Opera (musical) is simply a redirect to this page. Pimlottc 05:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, look here. There are actually quite a few musicals based on the story, but two MAJOR musicals come to mind -- the 1976 Ken Hill version and a version by Maury Yeston called Phantom. The Phantom of the Opera (musical) probably should redirect here as it is the most well known, but refering to it specifically as the 1986 musical allows pages for the others. —  MusicMaker 06:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clone

"With one exception, these productions have all been "clones," i.e., they use the original staging, direction, sets and costume concepts"

This is actually not entirly true. There are two notable differences in the "clones".

The first, and more important one is during "Wandering Child". In the London production this song is actually sung as a tripplet. Roul is already on stage at the beginning of the song, hiding from Christine and the Phantom. (He has his own lyrics, something about how Christine lets herself fool by the Phantom etc.) In all the other productions the tripplett is reduced to a duet and Rouls lines are cut.

The second difference: Length of the prolog before the Overture. The original production has three items beeing sold: 1. a skull and pistol, 2. Hannibal Poster, 3. Chandelier. Most productions (including the movie) cut the skull and pistol and start with the Hannibal Poster. FreddyE 07:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The key word is concepts. All the productions ARE clones because in spite of some subtle differences and deletions, they keep the same direction, the same costumes, the same sets, etc. The Hungarian production is the only one that has been allowed to take an entirely new directiorial and visual concept, as confirmed by the producers.
Also this page is about the stage show...what happens in the film is irrelevant here.

[edit] Other productions

Actually there are 2 german language versions. One is from Vienna (this is the older one), and one from Hamburg. The two versions differ greatly in their lyrics. (the only song completly the same in both versions is "The Phantom of the Opera"). The lyrics of the Vienna-Version stick more closely to the english lyrics. Today, only the Hamburg version is used. (the Vienna-Version hasn´t been used since the show closed in Vienna). FreddyE 07:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Premiere date contradiction

Am I just being stupid, or does it says in the intro that the musical opened in 1988, whereas in the main text it claims a 1986 premiere? Which is correct?

Both are correct. The show opened in London in 1986; it opened in 1988 in New York.

[edit] Phantom!: The Las Vegas Spectacular

Not sure where to cite it, so I didn't change it, but the statement that all of the songs were left in and in tact is not true. I just saw the Las Vegas production at The Venetian last week and "Magical Lasso" was notably missing. So, unless they just left it out on the performance of the night of November 20, 2006 (which I highly doubt), then it should be noted that it the song was left out. (DirtySocks85 04:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

I attended the performance at the Venetian as well back in July, and I noticed the same thing. The show was definitely condensed. However, according to its official website (http://www.phantomlasvegas.com): "Phantom at The Venetian reunites Andrew Lloyd Webber, director Hal Prince, choreographer Gillian Lynne and others from the show's original creative team, who together reconceived their show into a 95-minute spectacular, including each and every song from the original production." In its list of musical numbers, "Magical Lasso" is also not listed. Is there a possibility the original production did not include this song either? I've never seen the original, so I wouldn't know. Lulu288 22:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Certainly an interesting point of contention, I guess that it should be left alone for now and hopefully people will look at the talk page and notice the discrepancy. The only other suggestion I have on the matter would be to add it as sort of a side note but refer back to the quote from the official website. (DirtySocks85 04:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] The Show's Orchestra

Should this be included? I removed it because it doesn't seem necessary... Insanephantom (please comment on my Editor Review!)

Why would you think information about the show's orchestra is unnecessary? - Nunh-huh 01:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Too much information. The whole article really goes a bit too in depth, this is supposed to be a general encyclopaedia, not an encyclopaedia of Phantom. It's aimed at the general reader and that level of detail and information would be fairly off putting. ChrisGlew 03:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia. Information is what we traffic in. People don't have to be protected from information, that's what they come to us for. - Nunh-huh 03:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Should we put a section in for stuff like the Terry Pratchett book which is a paradox of the movie, the fact that the music is supposedly stolen from Echoes by Pink Floyd etc?

I agree about the Pink Floyd bit... 195.157.52.65 12:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The information you indicate might fit in the article, but please try to integrate it into the prose instead of making a trivia section, per WP:TRIV. W 06:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A while ago I copied the section for plagiarism from the Echoes article, I figured such an accusation was serious enough to merit it's own heading. Since then I've Roger Waters was misquoted originally and fixed both quotes. Also, someone has censored profanity from the quote. I'm restoring it in it's entirety to the accurate version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.9.205.125 (talk) 16:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phantom in Australia

"Phantom" has been performed in Australia before (c. 1990) at the Princess Theathre while it was in Melbourne, but also performed in other states too. This info is also mentioned in the Wiki for Anthony Warlow.203.46.95.243 01:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good point. I saw Phantom in 1996 in Sydney starring Rob Guest and Marina Prior - I think perhaps both the 90's run of the show and the current run be listed together, with the former stars listed alongside the current. At the moment it appears as though Warlow is the only one to ever portray the Phantom in Australia. Tinkstar1985 02:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sequel criticism

I removed the sentence reading

Not many people have criticized him for this however, saying that he has not lost his creativity. [citation needed]

as I cannot find a source for this fact. I can find criticisms of the book, but not anyone criticising ALW for making a sequel. If anyone finds a source, go ahead and add it back in (without the irony please) with a cite. W 06:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction Badly In Need of Cleaning

The current introduction is far too long. If someone gets a chance, please trim it down to at least 50% of its current size. A lot of the information there belongs somewhere in the body.

[edit] Russia/Poland

Could we put more information on the production in Poland. Also, where is there any evidence of a Russian production for 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.137.217.216 (talk) 02:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Her Majesty's Theatre

Phantom has been running for over 21 years at Her Majesty's Theatre in London. Please vote as you think proper at this FA review: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Her Majesty's Theatre. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] France

Has there really never been a production of this musical in France? That seems unbelievable, given that it's based on a French novel. If that is true, is there some kind of legal barrier preventing it from being performed there? Funnyhat (talk) 21:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The whole musical has been translated to French and, to my knowledge, there are two recorded versions. Apart from the recordings there has never been an official French production. I don't think there's a legal barrier, someone could just pay for the rights, it's probably because the French are not that into musical theatre.--Yamanbaiia(free hugs!) 22:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Nous aimons le théâtre musical, mais il prend un peu de temps pour certains salons à venir ici. Si jamais il est venu ici, il jouera à Paris. Il est seulement un français langue d'enregistrement. La bande sonore française du film.

We like musical theatre, but it takes a long time for some shows to come here. If it ever came here, it would come to Paris. There is only one French-language recording. The French soundtrack of the movie.

Non, il y en a plusieurs enregistrements, celle-ci de 1992 et un autre plus récent mais je le trouve pas sur internet et je me rappelle plus qui ce qui chante. T'est francais?--Yamanbaiia(free hugs!) 08:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] = Sound Upgrade - Wikipedia-Worthy? =

Many other shows have upgraded their sound, and it is not a big deal. It should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mistoffeleescats1981 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)