Talk:The Order (Silent Hill)

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[edit] The Order in the film?

I saw the film last night and it confused me to no end. I'm the one who wrote all this but now I'm not so sure. Is the Order the group led by Cristabella? If so, all the information I put down would be wrong, right? I'm going to assume everything I wrote is correct until someone says otherwise. --Thaddius

I'm a little more confident in my initial blurb on the order. I added a section on the films version and a section comparing the two. --thaddius

Until we recieve word from Konami or an associated agent, we should probably assume that the groups are different in canon, if the film is even canon. I think your information is great as it is, good work. Mr. Sinclaire

Around half of the second paragraph is dedicated to drawing links between the movie versian "Order" and Christianity. I don't see this as having much import to the movie, and most of the information given is interpretation. While it is true that their symbol is cross-like and that they quote the Bible, they might just as well be a survival of a non-Christian religion which came to New England to escape persecution and disguised itself to survive; cf. Hoodoo and Voodoo which preserved native African beliefs while adopting some vestiges of Christianity such as crosses and Psalms. Additionally, the practice of burning suspected witches was infact a predominantly non-Christian practice stemming from Germanic religion(see the death of Gullveig) untill the Germanic tribes became Christian. However, the ancient practice of witch burning continued to hold sway among European peoples. The Bible itself did not dictate a method for killing witches to the Isrealites and Paul merely said not to associate with them. Anyways, I think it is best to describe the "Order" without reading in what is not explicitly stated. In other words, how about this instead:

The plot of the 2006 Silent Hill film centers around a religious cult with
striking similarities to "The Order" from the games. In the film, the cult
consists of a group of fanatic followers who traditionally burn those they
suspect of being witches. This tradition apparently goes back to the founding of
the towne as is evidenced by a painting depicting the first burning several
hundred years ago. The cult's symbol is a cross crosslet with a hexagonal ring
for the central crux and the bottom arm extending downward to cross with an
arched line.

with this image: http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8043/theorderli3.png --68.184.167.71 06:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Function in Games section

Someone added some additional info on the order to this section. Awsome contribution. I integrated it into the main section. I structured it so there's a general blurb about the cult, then it goes into detail about their functions in the individual games. I also tried to punch up the grammar a little (I added a lot of 'the's to the beginning of the name's of the sects, I hope that's the way its supposed to be). I'm basically writing this so the author doesn't think I deleted their contribution. --Thaddius 00:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sects?

The sects are mentioned in passing, but other than the Sect of Valtiel almost no effort is spent to explain the differences between them and how they function within the Order. I haven't played the games enough to have even the foggiest clue as to what these differences are, so could someone fill this in?--MythicFox 13:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

People modified the descriptions. I'll try to add a bit more, I suppose. One thing people keep modifying is the names of the sects, it seems there is some dissagreement (I don't know why). --Thaddius 15:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to figure out how to do this cause I like the structure of the paragraph. Should we have a seperate section on the sects? I put some descriptions up below. --Thaddius 15:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy Mother Sect: In charge of the Wish House Orphanage.

Holy Woman Sect: In charge of distributing the PTV\White Claudia drug

Valtiel Sect: In charge of sacrifices and mediation between the sects.


RE: Holy Woman Sect. I am unfamiliar with this name. All official documents refer to this sect as "The Saint Ladies Sect". The only citation of the responsibilities of the groups are as follows:

Holy Mother Sect: In charge of the Wish House Orphanage.

The Saint Ladies Sect: In charge of distributing the PTV\White Claudia drug

Valtiel Sect: In charge mediation between the sects.

See here: http://translatedmemories.com/victimfiles.html Victims 01/21, O6/21, 14/21

SilentHylian 02:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)24.46.123.100 02:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There have been a few editors contacting me regarding these sects; please do not continue to do so. It seems that this translated memories site is unverifyable (since fan translations aren't necessarily accurate) and therefore the descriptions of the sects are to be left out of the main article, for now. Until Konami releases something (in English) themselves that differentiate the sects it would be much appreciated if this sort of thing be kept off the page. --Thaddius 23:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] With reference to The Order.

Hi Thaddius

This is the infamous SilentHylian of the IMDb "Silent Hill" Board. ;) I wanted to let you know how great I think The Order page that it looks you're largely responsible for is. It is perhaps one of the most comprehensive understandings of their belief systems I've seen online. However, there are two errors I thought I'd call to your attention instead of editing myself.

The Cult depicted in the film is not The Order, as was confirmed by Gans himself in this article:

"There isn´t just one Cult in Silent Hill. Why? Because what we wanted to do with the movie, and we probably were a bit ambitious, was to open the Silent Hill mythology, to open as many leads as possible." -Christophe Gans

Original Text: http://blogs.allocine.fr/blogs/index.blog?blog=allocine&themeID=3307 Translation: http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-345768.html

The other is with reference to the sects of the Order:

The three sects are The Holy Mother Sect, The Saint Ladies Sect abd The Valtiel Sect which mediates between them. There is no "Holy Woman" sect. Please see here and click on Victim 01/21 page 2: http://translatedmemories.com/victimfiles.html

My attempts to edit other Silent Hill pages on Wikipedia are usually not, how shall I put this? Well received. I thought by contacting you first, I might more easily arrive at my intended result and mission as "SilentHylian": distribution of accurate Silent Hill information online.

Thanks! SilentHylian

The site you cited for the sects is not an official site therefore I cannot use it for reference. The name of the cult is in dispute, therefore we must decide where to go from here. I will do some research and find out what exactly it is called in which things. SilenyHylian, please sign your posts with four tildes (~), it will leave your name and the time that you posted. --Thaddius 21:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Thaddius, Sorry for all the back and forth, you're the first person I've tried contacting on Wikipedia. I've sent you links on your talk page to clarify all of the above, all official, citeable sources. TranslatedMemories is a verified translation of Official Konami information.

Thanks Again, SilentHylian 21:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed any reference to the cult in the film being called 'The Order', please examine it. I ended up simply replacing 'The Order' with things like 'the cult' or 'the group' so it may sound silly. Feel free to fix the English up a bit. --Thaddius 22:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, did anyone notice that "The order" sounds just like the illuminati? I mean about the brainwashing thing. I don't know much about the illuminati, but I know about mind control and thats exactly what they do in Illuminati mind control. Well, they don't use drugs, but they put victims into trances just like drugs do so that they can, "program" them, being they were influenced by the Eygptian Isis mystery religion and other ancient cults and religions that actually did use drugs in mind control. Yeah, thats really bad, I mean to make a game that about anything remotely related to illuminati mind control.

[edit] Role in games outlined

"It is in this game [Silent Hill 3] that the sects of the cult are distinguished and their respective roles are outlined." I would like the acctual roles to be outlined. If anyone has any input it would be most apprecaited. --Thaddius 17:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

After playing through the game completely (never actually finished it before, so many games, so little time) I've noticed that the only 'distinguishing' that is done is Vincent saying he's not like Claudia. Can someone enlighten me on where exactly the names of the cult groups are defined? Is it SH4 (I'm in the middle of playing that one right now)? I know some people seem to think that the site for the translated lost memories holds the answers, but that is an unofficial translation. I'd be much happier if we could find these things out without that site (which seems to be used more and more on SH articles these days). --Thaddius 13:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

It comes from a different document thats in bad English translation called Another Crimson Tome. Lm is really meant as a 'guide' to games 1 - 3 really, Another Crimson tome was released post Silent Hill 4 and essentially that game's 'guide'. Xuchilbara 02:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)