Talk:The Old Man and the Sea

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Former featured article The Old Man and the Sea is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 20, 2005.
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
This article was nominated for the March 2005 International writing contest.
Peer review This Langlit article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale (comments).

Contents

[edit] Coursework

This is a peice of Coursework in the United Kingdom for the GCSE curriculum. This peice of Coursework is currently being studied by those who enterd Year 10 in 2006. 83.104.51.181 11:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Novel or novella?

In writing this article, I refered to the book throughout as a novel. This denotation has many factors to support it: the book received the Award of Merit Medal for the Novel from the American Academy of Letters, Carlos Baker included it as the subject of his critical anthology Critiques of Four Major Novels, Jobes refers to it as a novel. Some critics, like Waldmeir, avoid any difficulty and often call it simply a book. Still others would maintain that it is better described as a novella; the current Scribner's publication labels it as such on the back cover. In the midst of all of this, I am currently leaning toward recasting the article to include the usage of the term novella (as per the notions of its respective article). Would anyone like to comment on this? --DanielNuyu 08:37, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I will throughout now change all references to the book to novella (further impetus was it being listed at List of novellas). Still, feel free to comment on this consideration. --DanielNuyu 06:07, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I still don't really understand the difference of Novel and Novella. Is it basically the same? --Freddy Tsao
It is basically one of length and also age of the work. See the article on "Epic", "Novel" and "Novella". :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:16, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A question of wording.

In what way is the criticism of The Old Man And The Sea referred to in the first paragraph "incongruous"? In this context that word doesn't seem to be correct, although I can see why it was chosen. As I know that this article is primarily the work of one contributor, I thought I should ask about this before adjusting it. --Chips Critic 21:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Incongruous ("lacking in harmony; incompatible" –American Heritage) insofar as the work has been afforded a wide range of critical interpretation and opinion; that is, the several critical readings are themselves without harmony with one another (not a statement about whether either/any view is "correct"); I hope you understand what I mean, and if you can conjure a better way of wording it, feel free. --DanielNuyu 22:13, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Of course, I see what you mean. I initially mistook the phrase "incongruous criticism" as meaning "criticism incompatible with the work under discussion", which wouldn't fit. I think replacing "incongruous" with "disparate" would eliminate the possibility of confusion. I'll change it to that now. Thanks for your response. --Chips Critic 23:53, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Okay, good. I hope that makes it more clear. --DanielNuyu 00:26, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm confused to what this line means:

Most biographers maintain that the years following Hemingway's publication of For Whom the Bell Tolls in 1940 until 1952 Spanish Civil War]] (For Whom the Bell Tolls).

It appears to be missing some parts. Nik.martin 19:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Animated short trailer

Trailer How about including this in "See also"? Paulo Oliveira 11:09, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Further listening.

Batting for Hemingway

"When Mike Atherton captained the England side, he kept two pieces of literature in his bag: a Teddy Roosevelt quote defending the man of action against the critic and the short stories of Ernest Hemingway. He explains why he found solace in Hemingway’s vision and in his understanding of the necessary brutality of sport played at the highest level. He also talks to fellow Hemingway fans Hugh MacIlvanney, Michael Palin (of Monty Python fame), and Sir Christopher Ondatje."

BBC Radio 4 Documentary available online here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml#b enjoy, its a good listen... --Edzillion 12:08, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gone Missing

This article seems to have gone missing....on the day it is featured. I was looking forward to reading it, though it seems that someone has gone and deleted it. I'm slightly annoyed.KevinHFeeley 14:57, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: Nevermind KevinHFeeley 15:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citation from Sparknotes?

I believe the whole plot summary of the novel is from SparkNotes. To Wit:

From the article:

The Old Man and the Sea recounts an epic battle between an old, experienced fisherman and a giant marlin said to be the largest catch of his life.

It opens by explaining that the fisherman, named Santiago, has gone 84 days without catching a fish. He is apparently so unlucky that his young apprentice, Manolin, has been forbidden by his parents to sail with the old man and been ordered to fish with more successful fishermen. Still dedicated to the old man, however, the boy visits Santiago's shack each night, hauling back his fishing gear, feeding him, and discussing American baseball—most notably Santiago's idol, Joe DiMaggio. Santiago tells Manolin that on the next day, he will venture far out into the Gulf to fish, confident that his unlucky streak is near its end, as ashley goes narwhal hunting.

Thus on the eighty-fifth day, Santiago sets out alone, taking his skiff far into the Gulf. He sets his lines and, by noon of the first day, a big fish that he is sure is a marlin takes his bait. Unable to pull in the great marlin, Santiago instead finds the fish pulling his skiff. Two days and two nights pass in this manner, during which the old man bears the tension of the line with his body. Though he is wounded by the struggle and in pain, Santiago expresses a compassionate appreciation for his adversary, often referring to him as a brother.

On the third day of the ordeal, the fish begins to circle the skiff, indicating his tiredness to the old man. Santiago, now completely worn out and almost in delirium, finds the strength to stab the marlin with a harpoon and kill him during one of his great lunges out of the water.

Santiago straps the marlin to his skiff and heads home, thinking about the high price the fish will bring him at the market and how many people he will feed. The old man determines that because of the fish's great dignity, no one will be worthy of eating the marlin.

While Santiago continues his journey back to the shore, sharks are attracted to the trail of blood left by the marlin in the water. The first, a great mako shark, Santiago kills with his harpoon, losing that weapon in the process. He makes a new harpoon by strapping his knife to the end of an oar to help ward off the next line of sharks; in total, seven sharks are slain. But by night, the sharks have devoured the marlin's entire carcass, leaving only its skeleton. The old man castigates himself for sacrificing the marlin. Finally reaching the shore before dawn on the next day, he struggles on the way to his shack, carrying the heavy mast on his shoulder. Once home, he slumps onto his bed and enters a very deep sleep.

Ignorant of the old man's journey, a group of fishermen gathers the next day around the boat where the fish's skeleton is still attached. Tourists at the nearby café mistakenly take it for a shark. Manolin, worried during the old man's endeavor, cries upon finding him safe asleep. The boy brings him newspapers and coffee. When the old man wakes, they promise to fish together once again. Upon his return to sleep, Santiago dreams of lions on the African beach.

vs Sparknotes:

The Old Man and the Sea is the story of an epic struggle between an old, seasoned fisherman and the greatest catch of his life. For eighty-four days, Santiago, an aged Cuban fisherman, has set out to sea and returned empty-handed. So conspicuously unlucky is he that the parents of his young devoted apprentice and friend, Manolin, have forced the boy to leave the old man in order to fish in a more prosperous boat. Nevertheless, the boy continues to care for the old man upon his return each night. He helps the old man tote his gear to his ramshackle hut, secures food for him, and discusses the latest developments in American baseball, especially the trials of the old man’s hero, Joe DiMaggio. Santiago is confident that his unproductive streak will soon come to an end, and he resolves to sail out farther than usual the following day.

On the eighty-fifth day of his unlucky streak, Santiago does as promised, sailing his skiff far beyond the island’s shallow coastal waters and venturing into the Gulf Stream. He prepares his lines and drops them. At noon, a big fish, which he knows is a marlin, takes the bait that Santiago has placed one hundred fathoms deep in the waters. The old man expertly hooks the fish, but he cannot pull it in. Instead, the fish begins to pull the boat.

Unable to tie the line fast to the boat for fear the fish would snap a taut line, the old man bears the strain of the line with his shoulders, back, and hands, ready to give slack should the marlin make a run. The fish pulls the boat all through the day, through the night, through another day, and through another night. It swims steadily northwest until at last it tires and swims east with the current. The entire time, Santiago endures constant pain from the fishing line. Whenever the fish lunges, leaps, or makes a dash for freedom, the cord cuts him badly. Although wounded and weary, the old man feels a deep empathy and admiration for the marlin, his brother in suffering, strength, and resolve.

On the third day the fish tires, and Santiago, sleep-deprived, aching, and nearly delirious, manages to pull the marlin in close enough to kill it with a harpoon thrust. Dead beside the skiff, the marlin is the largest Santiago has ever seen. He lashes it to his boat, raises the small mast, and sets sail for home. While Santiago is excited by the price that the marlin will bring at market, he is more concerned that the people who will eat the fish are unworthy of its greatness.

As Santiago sails on with the fish, the marlin’s blood leaves a trail in the water and attracts sharks. The first to attack is a great mako shark, which Santiago manages to slay with the harpoon. In the struggle, the old man loses the harpoon and lengths of valuable rope, which leaves him vulnerable to other shark attacks. The old man fights off the successive vicious predators as best he can, stabbing at them with a crude spear he makes by lashing a knife to an oar, and even clubbing them with the boat’s tiller. Although he kills several sharks, more and more appear, and by the time night falls, Santiago’s continued fight against the scavengers is useless. They devour the marlin’s precious meat, leaving only skeleton, head, and tail. Santiago chastises himself for going “out too far,” and for sacrificing his great and worthy opponent. He arrives home before daybreak, stumbles back to his shack, and sleeps very deeply.

The next morning, a crowd of amazed fishermen gathers around the skeletal carcass of the fish, which is still lashed to the boat. Knowing nothing of the old man’s struggle, tourists at a nearby café observe the remains of the giant marlin and mistake it for a shark. Manolin, who has been worried sick over the old man’s absence, is moved to tears when he finds Santiago safe in his bed. The boy fetches the old man some coffee and the daily papers with the baseball scores, and watches him sleep. When the old man wakes, the two agree to fish as partners once more. The old man returns to sleep and dreams his usual dream of lions at play on the beaches of Africa.

Is a citation required here? RedNovember 06:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted

"Quite the contrary, the geniuses from http://www.hl2land.net cite the works of Hemmingway as clear plagiarism of the story of Jesus Christ."

As it is does not conform to the style of the rest of the article, as is it not clear who ' http://www.hl2land.net ' are, nor specifically why they are 'geniuses', especially in a section describing the views of eminent literary critics, titled 'Critical Views'. Tsop 02:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Symbolism

Should any note be made of the quote Hemingway supposedly gave?

"There isn’t any symbolism. The sea is the sea. The old man is an old man. The boy is a boy and the fish is a fish. The sharks are all sharks no better and no worse. All the symbolism that people say is shit. What goes beyond is what you see beyond when you know." Miguel Cervantes 22:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I've got a picture...

A 2003 Scribner edition of the book
A 2003 Scribner edition of the book

Okay. I have a new picture of the novel(la), but I'm so stupid I'm afriad I'l stick it in the wrong place. :P Well, here it is....where should I put it? Please don't get mad at me as I actually have a brain but only use 5% of it. :P --OreosTalkContribs 23:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Wow, that's a pretty high-quality scan. I'll go ahead and add it near the end of Critical views. --DanielNuyu 00:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Yay. Thanks. :D OreosTalkContribs 15:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mr Vishal Prakash Dudhane -- Vishal1976 --Ernest Hemingway

I read this great noval when i was in college , not the origanal English but a transalation in Marathi language by reknown Marathi author P.L.Deshpande. At that time i was undegoing most tencious , hard , diffcult part of my life . I was around 22 years of my age .My mind was full of questions and delima's. I have attempted an unsuccesful suicide attempt by taking large dose of pills given by phycologist.I was in very Mental illness nervious breakdown mentality. At that time i remembe very helpfull books which brought a ray of hope in my life is this book of Ernest Hemingway The Old Man and the Sea. after my attempt i was kept in company of my grandfather Shree Balasaheb Rosaheb Bhor during daytime when i was alone at my home. His company use to give me large mental relife. He talks about olden day's , our Maratha society , our culter and how we should behave. I use to ask him many question and he use to answer it in traditional , old manner. I slowly came out of my depration and mental sickness and overcome from bad days of my life. In 1999 i sarted my own business as a textile merchant in Pune city. The company and words of my mother's father i.t my grandfather Shree Raosaheb Balasaheb Bhor gave me my new life where i am now. I see The Old Man of this noval of Ernest Hemingway 's The Old Man and the Sea . How the fisherman give courage and words to the boy in the book and at the end he proved himself. Allthough poor , not succesful in modern world but have faith in life and learnt very much from it . Same way as my grand father is this old fisherman . Allthough my grandfather is not successfull in modern meaning but he have all the life in his life.And i Mr Vishal Prakash Dudhane - as Vishal 1976 -- From Pune city India is the boy Santiago in this book. My grandfather gave me a look to see the world and an eye to watch the life. I have very deep and good impression and efect on my entire life from both my grandfather Shree Balasaheb Raosaheb Bhor and this masterpice from Ernest Hemingway The Old Man and the Sea. I have read the views from others in this article but i am not happy. I am not sure and doughtfull that how much others and they have understood this book Ernest Hemingway 's The Old Man and the Sea. To understand the old man in this book is not very easy but you have to undergo from all the pain , feelings and harshness of the life he had. The old man is an icon of our glorious olden days and he have showed the olden , traditional values of our old society.

[edit] Split tags for films

It may not be a bad idea to make articles for The Old Man and the Sea (1958 film), The Old Man and the Sea (1990 film), and The Old Man and the Sea (1999 film). I was waiting for someone perhaps to go ahead and start them, but since no one has thus far, I thought I'd remove the tags and add the suggestion here (since there's three tags for the tiny section and it makes it look quite cluttered). If/when these articles are started, we can point to a disambig page for The Old Man and the Sea. --DanielNuyu 22:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've started the 1999 one. Esn 06:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Character Bios

Someone should add one. --67.162.152.20 03:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Santiago's story"

Since I haven't read this book since high school, I was confused by sentences like "Hemingway had initially planned to use Santiago's story, which became The Old Man and the Sea" under the "Background and publication" heading. To someone who hasn't read the book, that sentence reads like Hemingway adapted a story written by someone named Santiago, since this is the article's first mention of the name. I think a simple solution would be to change it to "Hemingway had initially planned to used The Old man and the Sea as part of a larger work." Or at least include a reference to Santiago's character in the introduction. Drogue 01:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning

I would hope, that someone with intelligence would attempt to state the different possible meanings of Old Man and The Sea. What Hemmingway said or not, there is obviously deeper meaning. Any help would be greatly appreciated, and should be included in this article, rather than just the surface value.

[edit] It is not indicated where the spoiler starts

It is only indicated where the spoiler ends. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.217.139.218 (talk) 20:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Changes to Symbolism of character

I am going to improve the section Symbolism of character, which is, from a literary standpoint, somewhat lacking. It provides one series of interpretations, while much of the beauty and success of the work can be attributed to the many interpretations that are possible.

I am giving a reference to Ivan Kashkin, who summarizes the early criticism of The Old Man and the Sea. I don't have time to trace the origins of the ideas.

I am also removing the repeated plot summary from within the section.

Also, the title of "Santiago's story" is On the Blue Water, Esquire, April 1936. --Evgeni Sergeev 06:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there any symbolism in the names? Santiago and Manolin. I am sure this rings a bell. Somehow these names seem to be very natural. --Evgeni Sergeev 12:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone removed this section without explanation. I reverted this removal of content, but if someone would like to justify deleting it I'm certainly willing to hear them out. --JayHenry 03:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

to interpret "old man and the sea" in the light of rigid confines of Christian religion would be a folly, there is not a guilty or a weak character in the novel. Hemingway's basic value is manhood. He respects lack of pride and does not find it violating a mans self respect, wants peace but cannot tolerate injustice and is ready for a fight as the duty of a man, this is exemplified in his fighting off the sharks ( he wishes they would not come but lashes at them with full ferocity to defend the marlin which he feels is honorable ). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.94.40.95 (talk) 15:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Publishing Location

Where was it published? Push It Baby!! ..Dats Muh Song!!..=] (Tay) 00:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Oldmansea petrov.jpg

Image:Oldmansea petrov.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'The old man castigates himself for sacrificing the marlin'

How did the old man 'sacrifice' the marlin exactly? From reading the plot summary, it sounded like the sharks just plain took it, no sacrifice involved. Vranak 06:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Plot Summary

I must comment that the plot summary is incorrect in at least one aspect: "Santiago straps the marlin to his skiff and heads home, thinking about the high price the fish will bring him at the market and how many people he will feed. However, the old man determines that because of the fish's great dignity, no one will be worthy of eating the marlin." This section is incorrect. In my edition, (1987 Scribner Classic/Colliers paperback), the man realizes that no one is worthy to eat the fish on page 75, but then he doesn't harpoon the fish until page 93. I would be greatly appreciative if someone would be kind enough to remedy this. Thank you 63.230.156.54 (talk) 01:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)