Talk:The Night Attack

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[edit] Babinger does not say Ottoman losses were minimal

Someone, using Babinger as a source for their own claims, wrote that "some sources say the Wallachians slaughtered a great number of Turks, while others say Ottoman losses were minimal." Neither Babinger nor McNally/Florescu say any such thing. Babinger says, "The entire skirmish, in which many camels, mules, and horses were killed, had no significant results." He means it was not a strategically decisive battle in one way or another, and that statement has little to do with the losses. McNally and Florescu find that a janissary who actually witnessed the skirmish says losses were heavy on both sides. Several sources claim Ottoman losses were heavier, although that certainly isn't the case proportionally speaking and probably refers also to Ottoman wounded (who surely contributed to the process of spreading the bubonic plague). But what Babinger was referring to was that it is not certain that this battle was the main factor in Mehmed's retreat from Tirgoviste, despite his original plan to attack the capital. Babinger, who was writing in the 1950s before Romanian history was even a seriously considered subject by Western historians (he was an early exception, to be sure), notes that Mehmed's planned attack on Tirgoviste and direct conquest of Wallachia failed and forced him to rely on his backup plan of installing Radu, but without coming up with a sure answer as to the decisive factor, maintains that no particular battle was the decisive reason why. As McNally and Florescu were writing decades later and about Vlad as their main subject, their more detailed and more thoroughly researched (about this particular subject anyway) account finds that it was Vlad's germ warfare mixed with the psychological effect of his tactics that compelled Mehmed to retreat.

The reasons for the Dracula victory have been demonstrated by McNally and Florescu, but the reasons why it was a phyrric victory have not been sufficiently explored. Babinger brings up an important point when he notes that after the sultan's retreat Dracula withdraw part of his army to Moldavia and this imperiled his domestic defenses, but does not seem to realize this is because Stephen III attacked Hungarian-Wallachian-held Chilia after the sultan retreated. He mentions this skirmish as if it happened beforehand, and doesn't pay it much mind. McNally and Florescu find that this happened on June 22 (two days after the sultan decided to retreat). The combined force of several thousand (one source mentions 7000) of Dracula's men and the Hungarian garrison there compelled Stephen and the Ottoman Navy to lift the siege by June 28, or at least that is when it was reported. During this time, Dracula had to resist Mehmed with his dwindling forces as Mehmed's army was heading east to Braila. Mehmed writes of one Turahanoglu Omer Bey crushing Dracula's domestic forces at this point, but this must have been before a Dracula victory at the town of Buzau over one Evrenos Pasha, which McNally and Florescu say was the last military encounter between the two armies. The Ottoman victory therefore took place between Tirgoviste and Buzau sometime in between June 22 and June 26, and the Buzau battle was a failed siege after that.

I personally think the number of 200,000 captured Wallachian cattle and horses is two high, but it must be noted that Turkish sources seem to have exaggerated the number of Ottoman troops even more than Byzantine sources. One Turkish historian mentions 300,000 troops. Since 90,000-100,000 is a more realistic estimate, the number of cattle and horses taken (almost certainly during the above-mentioned time between the Ottoman retreat from Tirgoviste and the unsuccessful siege of Buzau) is probably closer to around 40,000-60,000. In any event, Babinger notes that the number is "said to have" been 200,000 cattle and horses, not that it was.

What neither Babinger, nor McNally/Florescu discuss, but what is important to understanding the Vlad-Mehmed battle's place in history, is that Stephen's attack on Chilia ensured that Vlad's victory over Mehmed would be a phyrric one by forcing Vlad to divert his resources to Moldavia, but the failure of Stephen's Turkish-supported siege would leave a power vacuum in the region that would not be settled until he defeated Hungarian, Wallachian (under Radu), and finally Ottoman forces in battles over the unsettled Chilia question.Shield2 04:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion to Catholicism

"Dracula, who had converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism in order to gain support from Corvinus, asked the Hungarian king for assistance." This is not exactly accurate. McNally and Florescu reveal that when he asked Corvinus for assistance, he indicated that he was interested in converting to Catholicism and marrying a member of the royal family. However, he did not actually do so until years later to get out of imprisonment.

[edit] Wrong numbers

Stop adding such huge Ottoman numbers! 90,000 men was a complete impossibility to gather during that age. The biggest army to gather for such battle was 20,000 or less, the Turks has always been in constant war, and their numbers were few, since they lost many soldeirs after so many battles!

All the versions are presented and a compromise is presented. The numbers are realistic. Only 13 years later, Mehmed gathered an army of up to 120,000. Please don't remove sourced material. --Thus Spake Anittas 11:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GAC

I have decided to pass the article. I think that is very well written and well cited. The only thing I have to say against the article is that the after math section has no cits and I recommend that it is fixed. ANyway once again well done on the article. Kyriakos 22:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality Concerns

There is a statement with an ambiguous reference in the article. It reads: Historians credit Dracula as one of the first European crusaders to use gunpowder in a 'deadly artistic way'. I have three objections to this. First of all, I really don't care about the deadly artisticity of using gunpowder, nor do I think it is appropriate for Wikipedia to dveleve into such fantasy. Second, the aim of this article is hardly to bring an evaluation of how artistic Dracula was in his deadly methods but to explain events surrounding a battle. And third, not only the reference itself is ambiguous, but also it is at most a personal view of someone. So I propose the deletion of that phrase. In addition, I wonder, why on Earth my remarks in th edit page are being removed?????????74.66.233.1 15:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

That statemnt is sourced and it is in context because it described the conflict between Dracula and the Ottomans. It is not Wikipedia fantasy. --Thus Spake Anittas 06:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes I am sure there are few lunatics out there who are giving out artistic points to historic figures' use of gunpowder in a deadly way, and have those pieces of rubbish published too. I also have no doubt that Dracula would be a formidable contestant. This does not answer my question though does it? May be I should spell it for your benefit. WHAT IS THE HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE ARTISTIC QUALITY OF THE WAY DRACULA USED GUN POWDER? If by any chance your outlook to life is as skewed as the source you are citing, can you please also provide the list of other contestants in this noble artistic contest and how they faired so that we can see that it at least was a fair remark? By the way, is this from a schoolbook or something? That would really be something. 74.66.233.1 06:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
"Deadly artistic way" in this context can be interpreted as 'in a very efficient way." It has nothing to do with art. The significance lies in the fact that he was the first, or one o the first, to use gunpowered (not from cannons) in a very efficient way. --Thus Spake Anittas 13:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps Review: Pass

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I made several corrections throughout the article as well. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. As a side note, I'd recommend that more sources be added to the "Aftermath and legacy" section, and that the long quotes in the "Battle" section be condensed some. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 09:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)