Talk:The Nation of Gods and Earths/Archive 1

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[edit] True Neutrality

I was in the nation for many years after deciding to leave. I cannot speak for all, and though I know it is not taught, I still faced much antagonism due to my fair features and hair. Because I am latina, and also a 'yellow' seed, I was put on the chopping block many times in order to 'show and prove' my originality. Originality in the context of the nation being of a colored background, whether that be asian, middle eastern, latino, or 'african'. Anyone being of european descent was not considered to be original, and not God nor Earth. Though it is taught that equality is of the importance to balance, it contradicted with the teachings within the degrees by calling the white man a devil, and also referencing as weak boned and weak blooded. Those who rise above the 'national' colloquialisms attain a great knowledge of their ancestry and aim to learn about the sciences. I was one of them. Unfortunately, my inherent nature is to be open to all human families and thus I parted ways with the culture. Though primarily dogmatic and somewhat esoteric in 'appearance', it is not taught that it is a religion only a culture. In my travels in the nation it had become difficult to cast aside the notion that it was indeed a cult that disincluded many groups of people, not just white, but also those who rejected the philosophy that was taught. While there are other reasons why I chose to stop representing the nation, the most apparant was my disagreement with the ideology that the earths, or women, were not encouraged to teach newborns/newcomers. Again, while it was not taught that women were submissive to man, it was surely in practice and sought to urge women to dress conservatively and afro-centric in nature. Once I stopped wearing the gele, or headwrap (in african style), I also met with resistance. While they teach to accept original culture, some within the nation reject the manifestation of certain original cultures. They aim to teach women to dress uniformly in headwrap and 3/4 of clothing, and when those features are not attributed, it is problematic. In conclusion, I left for personal differences that I felt were limiting my growth and development, however there are many things between the lines that those in the culture are expected not to challenge. Thank you. formerly Shahada Vindia Earth. Just Shani now.

[edit] Philosophically and for the "white man"

"...it is better to study as many different religions and cultures as possible, to find the common truths in them, rather than focusing on the differences between them..." That alone is enough for me to take this into consideration to think about. People of NGE use that along with cultures and religions making/viewing their God with physical aspects of one self(i.e. skin color). I will take the quote above and look and study other religions and cultures which follow the idea of making/viewing their God as someone who has physical characteristics of themselves. I am not in the NGE or do not follow their 9 basic teachings but I will accept their philosophy, as I have done previous ideas without having knowledge of the NGE.

[edit] Thelema

I've added a sentence linking 5%'s to the Law of Thelema. Maybe it needs to be cleaned up a bit, but I respectfully request that this not be removed, as even a cursury study of both theologies shows remarkable similarities. Ihateswine 20:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ROFL

Random guy from Harlem = Allah? rofl that's the best thing I've heard all year, thanks Wikipedia!

Sure as hell made my day too! Deathwish238 00:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I think youre missing the point. --Endlessdan 12:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute

This page is not neutral at all. Much of it is clearly written by a five percener who is seaking to publicize his or her religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.178.63 (talk • contribs)

My comment is neither pro or against The Nation of Gods and Earths. I think spirituality or religion is cool for those who want to participate. I just think people should keep it to themselves. Dogma is wrong whether you are Jewish, Christian or 5%. My main reason for writing is not to dispute the authenticity of Five Percenters but to acknowledge the importance of their presence on the Web site. It really upset me to find out Wikipedia was voting to take their info. off the site. The religious sect may not be as antiquated as Judiasm or traditional Islam, but for African Americans who reject Western culture it has been extremely impactful therefore it deserves to stay on the site, ipso facto. Bro. Acie

The Five Percenters are a racist, Black-supremacist hate group that teaches that whites are grafted devils and that Black people are God. This artice makes no mention of this, leaving the impression that it is simply a religious movements involved in civil rights issues.

I think you are getting the Nation of Gods and Earths and the Nation of Islam mixed up in that previous paragraph. The former is more of a social movement than a religion. The article tries to explain the organization’s beliefs. Peace. (MuzikJunky 05:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC))

Keep in mind that maintaining NPOV does not mean respecting the validity of pseudo(science/history/theology/whathaveyou). And whatever the 5% Nation of Gods and Earths is supposed to be, it definitely involves the prefex "pseudo". Wormwoodpoppies 19:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Sources

Care to site your sources? --jenlight 22:09, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002-10-29-oped-goldblatt_x.htm http://www.immortalbirth.com/sneekpeek.html http://www.allahsnation.net/

Here are your sources.

If you want to edit this article you're free to, but I suspect you will be more guilty of NPOV than whoever wrote the original. And please sign your posts. --jenlight 15:12, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

The only one of those sources that can be accepted credibly is the last one. The first was an OpEd piece and the second was not informative in the least. R e verendG 05:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You sited an advertisement for a book as a source?71.42.119.5 23:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Five Percenters are NOT a hate group

The Five Percenters are not a hate group. They do not hate anyone. There are white Five Percenters as well.

It would be fairer to say, "They do not hate anyone who concedes that the Blackman is God."

Christians for a better part of their history (99% of it to be precise) have taught their young that God, Jesus, et. al., are white. Jewish, but ethnically white. So the Five Percenters teach the same, point? I fail to see how they are racist, this is the same sort of reactionary crap that gets posted at every Black nationalist group, see Black Panthers or an African American who dares say something not in line with the status-quo.

Oh my, where do I even start? The contemporary "White/non-White" dichotomy didn't even begin to take shape until the 16th Century and the European Age of Discovery. And it's hardly remained constant; for centuries the Irish, Ashkenazi Jews, Italians, and even southern Germans were not considered white. The idea of all the peoples of Europe being a unified "white" "race" was far from secure until after World War II (Ignatiev, Noel. "How the Irish Became White". Routledge, 1996). People depict their gods as looking like them, as Xenophenes famously articulated in the 5th Century BCE, Men make gods in their own image; those of the Ethiopians are black and snub-nosed, those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair. There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. This. Theologians of Antiquity felt there were more important matters to contemplate than Jesus' skin colour. Oh, and If you've ever been to the Levant, which I'm going to take a wild guess and say you haven't, the people vary widely in appearance. It is entirely possible that Yashua ben Youssef of Nazareth was just as fair of skin and hair as his depictions by Northern European artists. Whatever the case may be, I don't think He would care that in Black American Pentacostal churches he looks Black, in Indian missions he looks South Asian, in Greek Orthodox Churches he has olivey skin and inky black hair, and in Irish Catholic churches he's a redhead. Such aesthetic variances can hardly be compared to teaching that God is a black man and white people are devils created by the evil black scientis Yakub. Also, Christianity is two millenia old, and built on Judaic and Gnostic-Mystery foundations that are as ancient as mankind. Its mythological corpus represents the most personal and profound link we have to our ancestors, and to how humanity's understanding of ourselves and our place in the universe has evolved since we first learned to walk upright. 5%-ism was made up by some disgruntled jackass in the 1960's with an overactive imagination. Unfortunately, Clarence 13X's philosophy of "it's true because I say so" seems to have become the modus operandi of the general public in the 21st Century. Wormwoodpoppies 20:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you made this point. I was going to make a similar one. For instance, Judaism is based on the premis that Jewish people are "the chosen people." Are Jews then racist? Of course not. All religions believe they are chosen or correct. I suspect the person who is disputing this (and who write the ridiculous article titled Seven_Percenters ) is racist.

Also, I'd like to ask that people sign their posts. --jenlight 16:11, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Ms Light, I'm surprised and disappointed that a person of your intellectual capacity would make such a statement. There is a HUGE difference between the Isaac-Semites declaring themselves the Chosen People of their deity in the world of 3500 BCE West Asia, and Clarence 13X declaring all Negroid males God and all people of European extraction the Devil in the world of 1960 CE North America. Let's break it down, shall we?

1) Through Christianity and Islam the god of Abraham came to be worshipped by the majority of humanity; however, when Abram left Ur this was obviously not the case. El Shadai was the patron deity of the Habiru tribe, just like every other community had its own protector. In a world where science had yet to explain the brutal randomness of nature, and violent ethnic conflict was a constant reality, it is to be expected that a people would want their god to protect them at all costs. In the 20th Century United States it was common knowledge that the elements were governed by the laws of nature, and that humanity was a single species whose affairs were moved by free will, not the strings of celestial puppet masters. To hold 20th Century ideas to the same factual and moral standards as ideas from the time of the Babylonian Empire is laughable, to say the least. 2) When observant Jews (save a tiny lunatic fringe) today say they're the Chosen People, they do not mean that they're any kind of master race, they do not mean that Gentiles are inherently evil or subhuman creatures, and they certainly do not mean that they "are" God. 3) It is completely inaccurate to say that all religions believe that they are chosen or [exclusively] correct. You're confusing religion with fundamentalism. Even the dreaded Roman Catholic Church professes that all people of good will, regardless of religion or lack thereof, are reaching toward the same ultimate truth. No mainstream Christian, Jew, or Muslim will tell you that everyone who doesn't follow their creed will burn in hell for it. 4) Ultimately your comparison espouses the same fallacy employed by Scientology apologists. Real religions are built on thousands of years of oral and written tradition, and the converging and diverging of ideas and peoples. Scientology and the Nation of Gods and Earths were both made up more or less ex nihilo in the 20th Century. Failure to see a distinction here indicates an extremely myopic understanding of mythos vs logos.

As to the original question as to whether or not the 5% Nation is a "hate group", the answer is obviously yes. I wouldn't call anyone an inherently evil, subhuman devil if I didn't hate them. Are they somehow the Black equivalent of the KKK? No, because that kind of symetry simply does not apply to racism. Racism is a deeply-rooted system of oppression that maintains the dominance of the world by a tiny (less than 5, certainly) percentage of the population, a system that has for centuries exploited every corner of the Earth to serve the interests of Western Europe and her colonies. Racism is not simple bigotry. A black person calling a white person "cracker" can be shrugged off the anger of an individual; when a white person invokes the n word against a black person, it strikes with the force of six centuries of unspeakable atrocity. I, as a person of European ancestry, can laugh at the bizarre ideas of the 5%'ers, knowing that they have no bearing upon society and will never be taken seriously by anyone with any real power in the world. A black person cannot laugh at the equally bizarre ideas of Josiah Clark Nott, because it was those very ideas that are the source of the poverty and powerlessness of black people today, even if no credible person still believes them. Wormwoodpoppies 21:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep it, period. (page creator)Gorgeousp 11:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Bullshit. Do NOT compare the Black Panthers to the 5%'ers. The Panthers were a civil rights group who promoted social justice and equality. The 5% Nation is a lunatic cabal that makes the Nation of Islam look like the Unitarian Universalist Association. I'm fucking sick of seeing legit anti-racism get conflated with all this "the Black man is God, Cleopatra, Jesus, Moses, Iulius Caesar, Charlemagne, and Winston Churchill were black" nonsense. (Wormwoodpoppies 19:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC))

You have to remember also the Bible said WE-ARE-GODS!?! In PSALMS 82, John 10:34 (JESUS himself said so) and somewhere in the QUR’AN says we are made in ALLAH's image or something to that degree. This is the same thing the DRUIDS (Gnosis)thought. About racism... "the white man is the DEVIL" was the "medicine" the BLACK MAN needed at the time when the Nation and N.O.I. started. It was "shock treatment" for the black people in the ghettos. BLACK people needed their minds to wake up and giving them the ill TRUTH about themselves AND WHITE PEOPLE. It was the limited way the N.O.I. saw fit to wake the minds in the ghetto. Granted, white people cannot DENY the ills they put on the world, themselves and people of "color." STILL, the lessons gave some form of redemption for white people no matter how white people in the 1960's going back to the beginnings of SLAVERY treated BLACK PEOPLE. ALL PEOPLE came from AFRICA!?! Even scientist from different sciences AGREE, but it is funny that whatever is GREAT about AFRICA white people want to claim, but black people are always stuck with the FOUL.

So you had to call white people the devil so black people would "wake up"? How is that any better than white people saying that black people are evil because they're not white? The more I read this page the more absurd this half baked philosophy seems! Deathwish238 23:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, that was then-this is now. White people are equally accepted in the NATION just like Black people are accepted in society.......RISE-PEOPLE!?!

P.S. ALL people identify God in their likeness. It so happens that Africans are the first people to walk this Earth. Moshun11 moultrie11@hotmail.com

Humanity originated on the continent of Africa, but that does not mean that the first humans were Negroid and subsequently "changed" after they migrated to other parts of the world. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with anthropology or evolutionary biology knows that all evidence indicates that the contemporary people most resembling our oldest ancestors are the Capoid peoples of the Kalahari (the so-called Bushmen), who are a genetically distinct population from the Negroid peoples originating in the Sahel zone. Negroids, just like Caucasoids, Mongoloids, and Australoids, diverged from them. Wormwoodpoppies 21:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, man, I'm the last person in the world you would call a racist or a bigot. Well, you could call me one, but it just ain't true. The problem I have with the Nation(s) and just about every religion in the world, is not that they believe that they are right. It makes sense that you believe your religion is right. But to say that the Black man is better than the white man because he was here on this planet first is just silly. The primary differences between our races are actually social, not physical. Skin color, curly hair, and the width of a person's nose? That's what makes the black man superior? It seems to me that what would be most benificial to the "Everyman" is to systematically discard these silly notions of race. Race just doesn't exist. There can be as many differences between two people who are "white" or two people who are "black," as there are differences between two people with different skin colors. Everybody has the right to their religion, and I totally support the nations' rights to believe in whatever the hell they want. But I think you are a "social retard" if you believe that there is any real difference between whites and blacks and browns and reds and yellows and any other motherfucker on this planet. Also, there is absolutely NO evidence that the "first man was a black man." All we have is bones man. Skin color doesn't get fossilized. Maybe that's because skin color doesn't matter. The problem is not racial, the problem is cultural. Sub-saharan Africans have been systematically mistreated over the course of Western history. We should all be working together to make the rest of the world realize that the differences between Whitey McWhiteguy and Black McBlackguy come primarily from our society. Your blackness doesn't make you better than me, just as my whiteness doesn't make me better than you. Are we not both humans. Also, I don't know how many whites are in the nations, but I do know from personal experience that atleast SOME black members ARE bigoted. I was told that "A cracker has no place in the Nation of Islam." In those exact words. Sorry man, I am definately a "cracker" but you are not "God" anymore than I am. There's no such thing. We should be working to make the whole world a better place for every single person whether they are white or black or whatever. I want a world where God is obsolete, a world where the horrible things that happened in the German Holocaust and in South Africa and Plantation America could never happen because we all understand that we're the same creature. Ah fuck, I give up man. You can't change someone's opinion. And just a minor little point about "This is the same thing the DRUIDS (Gnosis)thought." Druids and Gnostics are wholly unrelated. There is absolutely no connection or even a similarity between the two. I'd also like to state that I am wholly in support the Black Panther Party, as their goal was to make their communities a better place for the people who lived in them, as opposed to the Nations which seems to have a goal of convincing the world that they are better than the rest of us because their skin color is direct evidence that they are God. 16:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, i cannot even hope to resolve or sway any involved in this arguement but please remember this, all religions produce their gods in the image of themselves. HOWEVER it cannot be considered institutionalised racism unless the teachings of the organisation say that those who do not look like their god or follows are automatically damned because of this. In many of the older religions there are of course tenants that say that you are damned it you do not follow the god, but thats only a natural strong arm tactic, the importat distinction to be made is whether or not the persons race plays any part in their ability to take part in the organisation and their promise of salvation. LordFenix 01:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you assume all religions produce their gods in the image of themselves, but you are quite mistaken. Hinduism doesn't have a set color of their gods. I've seen blue gods, black gods, white gods, pink gods, etc, etc. I'm sure they all have different reasons for whatever color the artist depicted them as, but blue for example represents the vastness of the sky. There's no set color of the various gods. If god is this all powerful being...why would he simply look like a human? Deathwish238 00:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Can someone please name a prominent white man in NGE or the NOI?

That's because most white people (yes, most white people) automatically assume as soon as it's something made up and organized by blacks, that it cancels out any chance a white person or someone not black can join. Misconception, and assumed by the majority of this country. I know, because I'm white and I've been brought up in a tolerant NON-racist family, yet for the most part of my life it was put in my head NOT by my family but by society and the world that Islam is violent and prejudice towards Western culture. Which is crap, obviously. That's only for Muslims who recognize Jihad as the one of the Pillars of Islam. ALSO Your views on NGE being racist all depend on how you interpret the meaning of the word "God." Christians believe that God created the universe and everything in it. Including us. Including black people. NGE believe that God IS the universe (if I'm not mistaken) and everything in it. Both arguments are logical, however if you look at the second, and you recognize that both arguments acknowledge that God is "in our hearts" and that we have to find God within oneself (asking Jesus(God) "into your heart" like Christians say, vs. the idea that God is already in your heart and it's up to you to acknowledge him so that you can lead a more virtuous life. Both arguments are logical, but that single difference of opinion changes it all. I'm not a Five Percenter myself because I haven't actually been able to speak with any of the higher members, but I do recognize that their ideas have a great amount of wisdom and careful observation of life and the universe.

Do you have anything to backup this claim? So far all I've seen is a bunch of people spilling ideas and not a single source. If this is a real belief system there must be some sort of written text easily accessible for all. Deathwish238 00:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, it's almost an equation the way THIS looks: if God is infinite, the Alpha and the Omega, and the universe is apparently infinite and expanding (according to modern science), than it makes sense again to believe that God is everything;

I don't see how that makes sense. You're relying on faith, not any proofDeathwish238 00:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

God is the universe. Or this universe is a small part of God, and God is every imaginable universe, all added up. That argument could go on forever. Either way, although I may not agree or subscribe to the idea that white men were created as devils through a birth control scheme to put down the black man, I do realize that modern science points to the idea that the first humans were from Africa, and were black. That seems to correlate with the NGE, further helping their case.And our relative history and the way things turned out with white Europe's conquest of North America and the Triangular Trade certainly doesn't help out white people's case. So when you look at it from an unbiased, unhostile, non-racist perspective, you might not completely agree with the NGE, but you can see that they make a few pretty logical points.

The Nation of Gods and Earths believe that black men are gods, Black Women are Earths and white people are Ice Devils created by a mad scientist. Believing one race is innately superior is the very definition of racism. The 5%ers are indisputably racist, they should at least have the courage of their convictions to admit that.- kug.wilkins@yahoo.com

[edit] Website

The website at ibiblio is gone. Does anyone know what happened? --jenlight 11:06, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

http://comp.uark.edu/~tsweden/5per.html

[edit] I've edited this page to be more NPOV

November 29, 2005

No, you've edited it to be more POV. Please describe the POV you saw that needs fixing. -Willmcw 01:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Not at all. Phrses such as Clarence 13x had great success in preaching his message and the aim of the NGE is ro protect and nutire "our" children is obviously biased and sloppy. In the first sense because this cult is hardly known of outside a ver small circle of people and the purpose of this article is to inform without taking sides.

[edit] A section could be made on Supreme Math/Alphabet

just sumarising them and connecting to the wiki page. If someone had a mind to.

I would like to say that i am pending on becoming a 5 percenter,but the reason i havent went all the way is because i am biracial, i am a mixture of black and white, i have both bloods running through my viens, at one point i believe most of what i read, but others i just dont agree to, for example, " the colored man is the caucasian(white man), or Yacub's grafted Devil-The skunk of the planet earth" please explain to me how that is not racism being taught!

they won't explain it to you because they CAN'T. 208.103.185.25 16:37, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From a Five Percenter's point of view...

Peace to all...

I must begin by saying that upon my first reading of this article, I as a member of the Nation of Gods and Earths was offended. Not because of anything in particular that was said, but because of the obvious lack of input from an actual member of the Nation. This logically could not produce an objective, unbiased body of facts regarding the Five Percent Nation. I, Allah Universal, have begun to edit the article accordingly, to ensure that there is no distortion of our foundation. The teachings of the Nation of Gods and Earths, in their original form, is best transmitted orally, and as with any other oral tradtion, the teachings cannot be fully desribed, or understood for that matter, by one who has not gone under the study, by contacting a verified member who can trace his words back to the origin, Allah himself.

Wow so you're saying written language has no point? Passing things on orally always ends up with some distortion. It is physically impossible for you to tell me what Allah himself said. There will be plenty of things that have been altered by each storyteller. If Allah said these things of dire importance...why on Earths would no one write it down? Humans are imperfect...and believe it or not the 5% are still human. No one can possibly remember a wealth of information word for word. Also, unless you trust every single person how do you know people aren't retelling things with their own point of view attached? Again, people will continually distort and tell a further distorted versions.Deathwish238 00:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

For one second can you not look at things through a western point of view?? I guess that would be a hard thing to do because you would have to realize all the conditions that have been placed upon you, the total unbiased review. For you to place such an importance on words is an illusion. 95% of communication is nonverbal. Plus, the spoken word was invented to explain certain feelings, but some feelings must be felt. No words can describe them because the word doesn't exist or they do not give the feeling justice. Unlike the Americanized game of operator or whatever that game was called where you relay a message and the message was totally different by the time it came around, oral traditions worked. I know you know of The Odyssey, that was an oral tradition. Many differnet cultures use this device to past down rituals, history, etc. etc. It seems to me the people that started writing history are the ones that have distorted history. Always trying to hide something or another. Or promote their ideology. (Why did Constantine have to edit the bible?) When will we wake up and realize that we have a limitless capability in this universe. Jesus came to show how love is the answer, yet they just made a glorious story out of him as well as a cult. He was not here to start a religion. He was here to save the world. Now instead we are busy killing other people and his words have been left in the past. Maybe if his stories were passed down in oral traditions we would be living in a totally differnet world. Peace and Love, Woking on the Changejbm0912

This is not intended to disrespect to anyone who has added on to the article, for I have no reason to believe that any misinformation was posted with malicious intentions. My efforts are merely an exercise in proofreading, and should not be taken any other way. I have hopes that post editing, the Nation of Gods and Earths will be studied & better understood, and not labeled stereotypically. I thank you dear readers, for your time...

Peace, Allah Universal universalliving@gmail.com

Also, is your name legally Allah Universal? Deathwish238 00:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cult status

This quote jumped out at me:

"In recent years apologists and members of the Five Percent Nation of the Gods and Earths have claimed the organization to be a social movement, but it should be noted the great majority of scholarly articles and books on the subject classify the group as a religious cult."

Why the 'cult' classification? The term 'cult' is one used by accusers, generally, for a small group of people who have a set of definable beliefs and practices that aren't mainstream and carries a negative connotation. According to the OED, though, Christianity is a cult. In religion studies, 'cult' carries a neutral connotation, but as Wikipedia is meant for the general population, perhaps the term should be qualified. Anyone else agree?

I G.O.D. Born Justice Allah for one don't agree with this accusation. I am a memeber of the Nation and we are not five percenters we are FIVE PERCENT out of 100 that know and tell the truth. It isn't impossible to deliver or understand the teachings. The teachings came directly from Allah and hasn't been touched. When you try to classify the Nation as a cult that is false propaganda. You slander our name. We aren't a religion, but we are a culture (way of life). Religion is a system of beliefs, morals, and based on faith of a mysterious being. The Nation practices the original way of life not that of a man and his own beliefs. Islam the culture is the oldest way of life on this planet, and has remained the same. No switch up or branch offs. One must not question his teacher with what the world thinks, but devote yourself to the studies. All praises due to Allah, lord of all the worlds. P.E.A.C.E.

You just confirmed what the others were saying, Mr. G. Universal84.53.74.196 22:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More about the belief system

I don't know much about it, but should there more on this page about the history of Yakub and the timeline of the universe? It seems that these are important elements of the cosmology.

I'm curious as to why there's a listing of the Wu Tang Clan at the bottom. Sadaukar 17:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Wu Tang Clan believes in this....stuffDeathwish238 00:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To the Creator & Editors of this Article

I would like to commend you for a job well done! The article was well thought out and thorough, as far as the information you entered. The 5% Nation is a collection of people from many Nations of Color, who choose to live mentally free and control their self-destiny.

It was claimed in many posts that the 5% Nation are racist. Not true, even though the 5% Nation has Supreme Wisdom (Sacred Knowlege and Research), and Power over Destiny, they have a discipline that forbids the use of hatred. Self Love—Universal Love. I think the post are talking about Yacub, a lesson taught in the bible about the Second Born Jacob who clones sheep in Genesis 30:31-43. Metaphorically, Jacob (Yacub) being a man of science is really cloning people (or splicing DNA), which would be an abomination even in our modern day times.

Nevertheless, their post did not take away from your article. I have but one comment. *You stated that the 5% Nation say that they are Asiatic due to their origins in a Portion of Asia... This is a Grave Misprint.

Asia is one of the original names of Ancient Africa. It covered Asia, Africa, the Americas (including Canada, India, Europe and more. Asia was originally named Pangea: When the land masses of the Earth were one, before it's separation by water. (See HistoryChannel.com)

No actually Pangea was named Pangea. Asia was never a name of Ancient Africa. Pangea was the name of everything before the tectonic plates separated. Seriously where does this misinformation come from? NGE claims to follow science...Deathwish238 00:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Asiatic - (they mean) of Earth (Black Woman), not one portion. Thus we get that God connection to the universe, as you stated.

You might be getting this meaning from the Moors who trace decendancy from Egypt & Morrocco thru Hagar Mother of the First Born of Abraham—Ismael, Genesis 16:2-10 & Genesis 21:9-21.

Anyone who knows the 5% as a Nation and not bystander would know them as some of the most Graceful and Noble of beings. They share Knowledge and Uplift Spirits. They Overstand to build a future for all Human offspring.

During the article you were *overall objective, and factual. May your Spirit be blessed for your submission, and may the Conscious Powers That Be, maintain this article as it is a true Contribution to the Spirit of wikipedia.org. (An unbiased contribution of the facts about people, places, and events that contributed to our known universe.

Truth Rules All Equality

[edit] Unanswered Questions

Can anyone contribute to the article to answer the logic behind Blackman and Blackwoman being the original fathers and mothers of all people that nuture children? It is my understanding that by that definition white people would be included in "all people" that are descended from Blackman and Blackwoman and are their "children." How can the group claim to nurture children if it excludes some of it's own children by their own definition, exclusion being a predecessor to self-destruction? It seems to me they either have an incomplete and oxy-moronic doctrine, or the article is missing important information. It also seems to me the members of the group would be just as successful in claiming self reliance if they were atheists that simply tried to be commanders of their own life and future, so can the article provide a background as to why divinity of any kind had to play a role in lifting up the oppressed? Does one have to claim superiority over others to feel better about themselves? I think a previous poster pointed out the hypocrisy considering the movement was in part meant to counter white supremacy. Does making one out to be God or god-like solve any of the critical answers facing the people that are meant to be helped? Claiming to be something one is not can turn others away from an otherwise positive message, so can the article attest to any negative repercussions the group's claims of divinity have caused, be it regarding indoctrination or spreading of the message? In this regard I feel the article is incomplete.

[edit] White Five percenters

I have a question to ask.... I've been interested in the 5% Nation, but if there are some 'white' Five Percenters, who are they/(give an example) Anyone? -Salam Farad-

.....and by the way,if just 'Non-white' men are 'divine beings' i.e. Gods, what then of 'white-skinned' men? Do the 5% still uphold that 'white man is the devil' theory ? somebody help me with these questions!! -Salam Farad

I also wonder about this. The description given says that "all non-white men" are God. Does this mean women are not God? And white people are not God? Why not? The explanation given is defensive and unhelpful. Ben Applegate 18:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been having some troubles myself with the white question, but women are Earths rather than Gods. Rever e ndG 18:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

i would be more than willing to fight and die to elevate the 5% to the top and im white,even if they have hatred for me and my ancestors. i geuss i am a devil if im willing to eliminate my own people to clear the way for your people. but how evil could i be if you are the rightous leaders of this society. I need answers.

Women are seen as the planet Earth. Peace (MuzikJunky 05:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC))

Not sure if anyone noticed...but there are people that are not white nor black. Are they gods? If I simply got a really dark tan...could I be a god? Deathwish238 00:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peace...

...I'm Allah Universal, standing member of the Nation of Gods and Earths...If anyone has serious inquiries regarding what we teach, what we do and don't advocate, what we strive to achieve in this world, or even if you're just curious, you can reach me directly at universalliving@gmail.com, or allahuniversal@betarecords.com...Please be sure to leave our name, so that I can respond to your appropriately. No inquiry will be rejected, and all will be addressed respectfully. All questions will be answered to the best of my ability...Peace...Allah Universal

64.139.234.199 07:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Allah Universal

[edit] Userbox

for those interested. ReverendG 22:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

This user is interested in The Nation of Gods and Earths.

Thanks! Peace. (MuzikJunky 05:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Foolish

You people are truly foolish.Why is it that if when asked to create a single ant from nothing, no so called "God" can oblige. Why wont any of you phony "gods" make it rain during a drought or conger up millions of dollars for yourselves.Considering that you all are "gods" then you should have all existing knowledge.Therefore, you should be acquainted with the story of Pharoh in the Qur'an. You see Pharoh was a powerful king who was just in his ways except for a few. One of which was that he enslaved the children of israel. Another was that he was arrogant. When Moses was sent to Pharoh in order to teach him the error of his ways, Pharoh called his followers and said "I know not that you have a god other than me." He was subsequently drowned by The One True God, Allah, who created the heavens and the earth from nothing. A feat, which may be noted that until now has not been achieved by any of the 5%s. History is always bound to repeat itself especially by those who don't know it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Musa from the bronx (talk • contribs)

[edit] Not so Foolish...

Peace to Musa from the Bronx... Not that your post needs to be addressed, however, it seems to me that you have a personal grudge against the Nation of Gods & Earths. Why, I know not (I'm not All Knowing, which is why I continue to study myself & educate myself, as any wise man does)...Your post is very general, and shows that you have limited yourself to one particular realm of study pertaining to Islam, tunnel vision, if you will. This is one reason why "fundamentalist" Muslims are being targeted & attacked to this day, & why the Nation of Islam is pigeonholed as a racist, or hate group...You must be willing to change with the times, and not hold on to the dogma that keeps people seperated...No one group, religion, nation, etc. has a monopoly on Knowledge & Truth, we must all share what we have for the benefit of all...There are modern-day Pharoahs that seek to destroy you, me AND our respective cultures for their own selfish gains (G.old, O.il, & D.iamonds), THEY are the ones that we need to be worried about!!!

Did not the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) say that "To acquire knowledge is binding upon all Muslims"? To seek knowledge one must do so objectively, not with religious fervor. The Prophet himself was open to seeking knowledge from all people that he came across, from all walks of life, before he received his mission in the year 610 A.D. He earned his station in Life by doing so. I was a praticing Sunni Muslim in my younger days, and I know that tolerance is required from a Muslim. Not to judge or criticize you, but that is not what you are showing. To add on, the Faithful Companion Imam Ali (PBUH), cousin, & son-in-law of the Prophet (PBUH), 2nd only to Khadijah (PBUH) to accept the Prophet's (PBUH) teachings, said "Knowledge and wisdom are really the privilege of a faithful Muslim. If you have lost them, get them back even though you may have to get them from the apostates." If you consider The Nation of Gods & Earths to be apostates, that's fine, it takes nothing from Us, however, it is still incumbent upon you to tolerate Our existence, and to learn from Us, to figure out the time you are living in, and the reason for Our existence...Peace be upon you...

Moving on... The following is a conversation resulting from my posts on this page...This may clear up some of the misconceptions of the Nation of Gods and Earths, & if not, I can be reached directly at universalliving@gmail.com........................................................................................................................

xxxxx wrote:

How is all?

My name is xxxxx, a Northern-European seeking information on the Nation of Gods and Earths.

One of the things I've been wondering about is if a white man doesn't do devilishment, then he isn't a devil? I believe your teachings say anyone who does devilishment is a devil, correct? But since the story of Yakub says (I believe) that the white race is a race of devils, doesn't that make them devils for all eternity? What is the most righteous (so to speak) a white man can be?

Another thing I was wondering about, is if the Nation of Gods and Earths is international, if they exist in other countries except North-America?

I'd also like to know if there is something you believe is important to know about the Nation of Gods and Earths and their teachings.

And forgive me if any of the information I have is incorrect, I mean no offense at all.

Thanks for sharing the information, I truly appreciate it.

Peace.

Peace xxxxx...

Thanks for your interest & questions...I'm at work at the moment, so I'll be answering your questions in a few hours once I get home...Don't worry about having something wrong, one who doesn't know can't be held responsible...Peace...Au

So ignorance is bliss? I find it hard to learn about something when there is little to no information about it. I'm trying to learn about NGE simply because I find it...intriguing. However I cannot judge something without atleast trying to understand it first.Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Peace xxxxx...

Thanks for your inquiry. I tend to be straightforward, so I'll get right to your answers...

Good Question, not one that can be asked, nor answered objectively by most. To understand the answer thoroughly, you have to look at the word "devil", the etymology of it, and the connotations associated with this word.

The English word devil derives via Middle English devel and Old English dēofol and Latin Diábolus, from Late Greek Diabolos, meaning, slanderer, from diaballein, to slander: dia-, across + ballein, to hurl.

Here in the Southern part of the US, a common phrase (although based in religion) is "the devil is a liar". The word devil is properly associated with one who "throws" slander, or lies at another for the sake of personal gain. This is the experience of the Original People in the US, in our dealings with Caucasians, we have been lied to as well as lied on, and still are. This is not to say that Original People are not capable of the same, however Caucasians have gained a HUGE worldly advantage through deception, hence Elijah Muhammad's readiness in calling them devils. Also, look at how war has evolved, from hand-to-hand combat, to the "throwing" of all types of devices, from bullets to bombs, all built only to destroy human life.

Jeez you opened up a huge can of worms. First off, by devil we all pretty much assume a devil is a purely evil being...not a liar. There is a word for someone who lies...and it is not devil.

Also, are you meaning to imply that black men(or how about nonwhite men in general) do not slander or lie for the sake of personal gain?

Another point...you're criticizing how war has evolved. War has evolved with technology. War is also a natural part of humanity. People fight wars for various reasons...and while you can put it simplistically "to destroy human life"...pretty much every war is fought to protect their beliefs and one's families. So war is in a way to preserve human life. Wars were originally fought for land to grow food on...would you say that is wrong?Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the connotations of the word devil, it's commonly associated with everything evil, when looked at from a religious perspective (read: psychological conditioning). Keep in mind that The Nation Of Gods and Earths doesn't adhere to religion, and We aren't using the word in that way; also keep in mind that our lessons are very general, for they are meant to be a starting point for further research into the Sciences of Life. To keep it simple, a devil is one who deviates, in the sense of manipulating natural law, or rebelling against it. In the last 6,090+ years, the Earth has seen destruction at it's finest at the hands of mankind, resulting in the ruptured ozone layer, widespread pollution of air, land & water, global warming, etc.

Now, regarding the story of Yacub, it's only genetic engineering & eugenics at work, just simplified. It's a well known & documented fact at this point in time, that the Original People are physically & mentally dominant.

Source? Sounds like more "facts" without any factual evidence behind it to me Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Not better, just dominant. Basic biology shows that all people carry both dominant and recessive traits. The Yacub story is nothing more than selective breeding, whereby those Originals with recessive traits were favored for reproduction, and those with dominant traits were culled off. This process, after approximately 600 years, allowed for a "race" with mostly recessive traits to be born. This is how white rabbits, white lab rats & mice, etc., are brought about, excluding albinos, they don't exist in nature. The Caucasian was brought about via deviation from nature (Darwin's Natural Selection/survival of the fittest), thus, the term devil. By nature, an Original person is Righteous, and any deviation from Righteousness, is of course, devilishment. So, being that a Caucasian is a deviation of Man's nature by default, the inbred nature is indeed devilishment. How Righteous a Caucasian can be, depends on his/her will & desire to "go against the grain", so to speak, to try & be Righteous. Again, just as an Original can deviate from their nature, so can a Caucasian. On the other side of the same coin, I am a God, not because I have a superiority complex, or some grandiose delusion, & not because I have a "holier than thou" approach to people. It's not because I feel the need to be worshipped, or to amass some great cult-like following. It's not because I'm a chauvanist who needs to place myself above a woman to "feel" powerful. It's not due to any hatred for Caucasians, because I've never had any (hate the deed, not the person). It's because I'm an Original Man, living to the best of my ability according to my Righteous nature. I'm in-deed a dominant being on Earth, setting things aright where I have the power to do so. In the more general sense, there is no being superior to the Black Man that has been shown & PROVEN to exist, beyond the faith of the well-intended who misunderstand the creative powers that exist within them. Removing all religious connotations, I'm no supernatural phenomenon, I'm a Natural Man, plain & simple...And there has NEVER been a seperation of Man & God, for the two are one & the same, always have been & always will be...

Another thing I was wondering about, is if the Nation of Gods and Earths is international, if they exist in other countries except North-America?''

Yes, there are Gods and Earths outside of the US. I know for sure of the Nation's existence in Canada & England, possibly Australia, recently heard of some in South America, I've answered questions from a Brother in Ghana. There's also Brothers & Sisters in the corporate world, & the US Military, so those two are other means for Our teachings to travel abroad. Everywhere We go, Our teachings go, and with the Internet nowadays, it makes it that much easier to reach out to the world from Our living rooms, hence this conversation...

Then why are there only a handful of websites about NGE? If it's so widespread I'ld expect to see websites originating from outside of the USA in languages other than English as wellDeathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to know if there is something you believe is important to know about the Nation of Gods and Earths and their teachings.

Yes, to sum up Our Teachings, We are Civilized People who do not be-lie-ve anything, We study so that We take nothing on face value, specifically religious teachings, and we bear witness that there is no unseen god to come and save, nor judge, humanity. We teach that all of the human families of the planet Earth deserve Freedom, Justice, & Equality. All of the "mysteries" of Life can be explained via Mathematics & Science, even those things that have yet to be "discovered". We are not Pro-black, nor are We Anti-White, We are Pro-Righteousness, & Anti-Devilishment.

I'm yet to read a source define "Devilishment" Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Basically, We are normal, everyday People who acknowledge Our Divinity, and strive to Live accordingly. There's nothing really mystical, or even fantastic about our teachings, because what We have been teaching for the last 42 years, in simple terms that people can Understand, has been & is being revealed & "discovered" daily in the Information Age, by any & everyone from the elite scientific community, to the common layman.

I hope that this gives you a bit more insight into the Nation of Gods and Earths, and our teachings, I have to say however, that this is not even the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot much more to what we teach than what you can see on face value, because We teach Life & how to Live it. Feel free to ask anything else that comes to mind, I'll be more than glad to assist you...

Peace... Allah Universal

64.139.234.199 07:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Allah Universal

The above reply from "Allah Universal" sums it up pretty well. Typical paranoid racist diatribe. Perhaps all religions, including Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam and other ancient religions, had similarly divisive, farcical and hateful origins and rhetoric, but that does not mean that modern, 21st century, humans should suffer their continued creation. Are we to now elevate every lunatic that claims to be "god" and preaches a "doctrine" to the same level as Christ and Mohammed in the name of relativism? We have too many religions already. There is no need for self-proclaimed prophets who in reality are violent criminals to be given serious acknowledgement. The real details of the lives of Christ, Mohammed and Buddha are lost to ancient history, but I think we can safely make the reasonable assumption that a guy from the 1960s was not "god". Bending over backwards to find import and meaning in delusional "teachings" like this lends them a legitimacy they do not deserve. They are of historical significance in that they are a part of the backlash to institutional racism in the US, and a darker aspect of the Civil Rights movement, but that should be the extent and tone of the coverage.

The Wiki should be a scholarly and secular work based on a scientific approach. Religions and cults have their own online compendiums from which they can evangelize. A "belief system" that espouses such fallacies as "caucasians are a recessive deviation from the true man" and that it is in their nature to be "devilish" but that they can strive to "not be devilish" and that the "blackman" is "the true man" should be noted and documented for historical interest (perhaps under the category of abnormal psychology), but rightly called out as being no better than any other racist manifesto.

Human life originated in Africa at a time before modern homo sapiens existed. That our pre-human ancestors wandered from Africa to cover the earth and evolved traits based on the environments in which they settled is a wondrous and beautiful thing that is perverted by garbage like this. Instead of mis-quoting Darwin and abusing real science, maybe these "gods and prophets" should try learning something about real evolutionary theory, biology and anthropology.

One final point; the comparisons to Judaism made by a previous poster are at best a specious argument. If there are parallels between this "NGE" manifesto and any of the organized religions' manifestos, then those religions should be rightly called out as well. No "religion" that seeks to pervert science in order to justify a doctrine of intrinsic defacto racism should be considered acceptable. Rather than drawing a parallel to Judaism, why not draw a parallel to nazism or White Supremacy? I see far more similarities there. The thin camaflouge of "neutrality" in the NGE "teachings" does very little to disguise the hateful intent that is quite evident below the surface. I see no deliberately hateful intent in the Torah (or the Quran) but, if it *is* there, it should also be called out as being despicable and unacceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.54.205 (talk • contribs)

70.107.54.205, if you feel the article is POV you may edit it to be unbiased. R e verendG 05:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

So, "Allah Universal" you are saying that the Five Percenters don't hate anyone, and would therefore have room in their ranks for white middle class athiests? Can you name a white man who is a member of NGE or even the NOI?

ANSWER----

There are white people in The Nation of Gods in Earths. I in fact know of one, and he is a very very respectful and lucid individual. Considering some of the responses here, I will not divuldge his name. I do not agree with everything in the Nations teachings. I do however agree that if everything they taught outside of the race factor was taken into consideration, it would be hold value. Uplifting children, self-esteem, and creating awareness of yourself will always be a positive thing for any race...Keep the knowledge and do away with the emotional bias. Believing in yourself and your community is what can help empoer you, but bringing down anyone to do it is not.... 18:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)DSpunky

ANSWER pt. 2----

Peace... Allah Universal here...addressing the above questions (the last ones at least), the Nation of Gods & Earths does not teach hate of any group, that's not to say that individual members will not display hate toward Caucasians or others. That's the choice of the individual. Also, allow me to make a quick distinction...The Nation of Gods & Earths is only part of the 5%...the 5% consists of individuals from all walks of life, accepting our (NGE) teachings is not a prerequisite. A 5%er for all intents & purposes, is a civilized person who does not believe in mainstream religious teachings, or in any teaching that oppresses people, and I consider, for example, Robert Anton Wilson to be of the 5%, because he speaks the Truth to educate & enlighten the masses, regardless to his religious or philisophical orientation (neither of which I have knowledge of). Another that comes to mind is George Carlin. A white atheist would be more than welcome to study Allah's teachings, so long as he/she is sincere and willing to teach others. A member of the Nation of Gods & Earths, who is still alive to my knowledge, is Azreal, who was taught personally by Allah in the late 60's. Barry Gottehrer, Mayor Lindsay's assistant in that time, was also a 5%er (quick reference can be found here: [1]). I don't know any others personally, I know that they exist, just haven't met them. As for the NOI, they are a seperate entity, I can't speak for them really, but as far as I know, they have no Caucasian members.

You really think NOI has no Caucasian members? You must be more ignorant than I thoughtDeathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The rest I will address as time permits... Peace... Allah Universal

so george carlin is an NGOE member, or his work is similar to the NGOE teachings?

[edit] Devils

Hi. I'm from germany, so i might be missinformed. But isn't it so, that the NGE and NOI says that all white men are devils? You often here that devil-talk in many hiphop music, too. So they are hating white people and call all of them devils and they have a clearly racist mythology. They seperate people by colour of skin and not by actions and deeds, which means nothing else, that it is racist. Why isn't that pointed out in the article clearly? I mean, all that devil talk and yakub story certainly ins't made up by people outside of these cults... (please someone answer in short and straight forward answers without dodging. Its an easy question.)

Peace... I'll to answer your questions as directly as possible, as well as expond on the topic, I'd be unjust not to do so...

To be frank with you, yes, many members of both the NGE & NOI do call all white people devils. I've even done so when I was in training, without understanding what I was doing. Here is the basis of this...The folowing is from the Lost-Found Muslim Lessons, which Elijah Muhammad (former leader of the NOI) gave to his followers as a study guide...

2*, 1-10] Q: Who is the colored man? A: The colored man is the Caucasian (white) man, OR Yacub's grafted devil of the Planet Earth. (emphasis on the word OR is mine)

(note: this is the NGE version of this lesson; the NOI's version, in the words of Elijah Muhammad says "...grafted devil, skunk of the Planet Earth." The NGE does not use the word "skunk" in this lesson, because it has no place in the REAL meaning of this lesson, which I will get into)

I'll be the first to say that many members of both groups, as well as outsiders, take this lesson and run with it...Without proper exegesis, it's hogwash, Calling all white people evil (devil is not synonymous with evil, devil in essence means "one who slanders), and not examining individual's intentions & deeds, is no different than calling all Muslims terrorists because of their choice of religion, or even calling all NGE members racist. The NOI is infamous for generalizing in this fashion, and personally, that's why I never joined them. Members of the NGE, that is, those who are serious teachers/students would not do this (name-calling/generalizing). And yes, it seems to be racist. It matters not to a true 5%er what color a person's skin is (it's a difference in melanin content), what matters is the MIND of a person. This is the esoteric side of our teachings, which very few hear about, but it's quite easy to understand...

Elijah Muhammad was a freemason (3rd Degree Master Mason), and due to his oaths, he could not say certain things outright, so his lessons need to be "decoded", if you will. Simply replace the word "man" with "mind", & the above lesson takes on new meaning. A colored (as opposed to an original/righteous) mind is a corrupted mind, which seeks to supplant another. The meaaing of Yacub/Jacob is literally "the supplanter". Those who have promoted white supremacy have done this for centuries. That, is racism in action. Racism is learned behavior, it's not natural, therefore, it "colors" the mind. Also, a racist, by definition, has the resources to impose his beliefs onto an indiviual or group, on an institutional level. Neither the NOI, nor the NGE, possesses those resources. By definition, they cannot be racist. Just as Prussian Blue cannot be racist.

The NOI & KKK were/are two extremes here in the US, polar opposites both founded in the midst of "racial tension", with their focus being on race as a factor of righteousness. The NGE is ideally the middle ground, a bridge between those two. Of course, with most members being black, there's a bias, yet, in due time, with proper understanding (by members & outsiders) of what we seek to acheive (Freedom, Justice, Equality, Collective Consciousness, Community Control, & Peace for all on Earth), aside from our controversial teachings, there will no longer be a need for dicussions such as this one.

I hope that this was straight forward enough for you...if not, please contact me @ the email address above for further discussion...

Peace...Allah Universal

It's me again. Thank for the answer. But I have to disagree in some points. The KKK is clearly racist but still laks power over institutions (save for some regional areas maybe. On a very local level). The german NPD (half-legal follower of the Nazi-party) is very small and virtually powerless, but they are still racist. And even if one would interpret the writings of elijah muhammed the way you do it, it still remains only an interpretion. No one can say that you are right with you're interpretation. You maybe right or you may be wrong. But it is more importand, that many people certainly won't interpret the writings the way you do, as you said yourself. Instead they will use the racist way to interpret them. So shouldn't the racism issue and the devilism at least be discussed in the article?

Furthermore, i don't think that society needs eather groups as NOI, KKK or even the NGE. If people would stop thinking so much about virtualy unimportand factors as race and colours, racism wouldn't exist in the first place (thats just my opinion and of corse has not directly to do with the article). I don't think that NGE is the middle group. The middle group is probably to belong to no group at all.

Peace from an agnostic german

Peace... You are Right & Exact in what you say...Anyone who limits themselves to ANY one way of thinking, becomes a victim of self-imposed tunnel vision...Study everything, don't become it at the cost of becoming other than your own self... Peace... Allah Universal

that sounds like bruce lee: "when one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style."

RE: white devils, yacub, etc. i think it would be helpful for someone to clarify how much of this parable / explanation is transmitted from the NOI to NGE and accepted, whether it is taken literally, etc. if many members believe that white men were literally created in caves via eugenics over the course of 600 years, that bears mention, i think. i am not really clear, in general, on how much of the more paranoid and racist stuff from the early NOI is passed down through NGE. being an oral tradition, obviously this will vary based on the speaker, but i think it merits some scrutiny. quite frankly, most of the 5%ers i know represent the teachings of knowledge, justice and equality in public, but also harbor some paranoid racist myths, like the one mentioned above, when they speak candidly. just my own experience, i am nobody's judge. peace from wash heights. -nothumb

[edit] Regarding The Page Contents

I think a lot of this discussion is beside the point. It is not necessary to come to any conclusions about the validity of NGE teachings to say something about the page. Some of these disputes have no possibilitiy of resolution. For instance, I think that the NGE seems racist, as do orthodox Jews who believe you are only Jewish (and chosen) if your mother is Jewish. I'm ignorant of the mitigating intricacies in both cases, but from the outside they appear to have this in common. But that's an argument that will never be resolved one way or the other, so our discussions here shouldn't hinge on it.

So, does the page adequately inform? Since I'm not an expert on five percenters, I can't say for sure. However, from what I've read previously, I feel that certain controversial aspects of the NGE are being downplayed in this article. The fact is, this group believes in a very different world history from that of mainstream society, and the nature of this difference would be very striking to most people. Thus, it should feature very prominently, whereas it is not really mentioned at all. Why is there no mention of Yakub and other such controversial ideas in this article?

As an outsider, I find this cult to be very hard to pin down. It seems to me that some of the beliefs are quite literal and some are highly metaphorical, but which is which can vary between members and over time. It would be nice to see some elucidation of this (if possible), especially since it sounds like there are people here who are qualified to comment. And why is there no mention of the links between hip-hop and the NGE? For a summary of such a complicated, unique and weird group, I think the scope of this article is surprisingly narrow.

But like I said, I'm not an expert, and they are hard to pin down. If I thought otherwise, I'd participate more directly in the page's contents. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.183.138.102 (talk) 10:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] This page is bullshit

What a bunch of racist retarded bullshit. Be honest that you hate white and Jews, you smarmy retards. The most important thing is a lot of popular rappers follow this racist nonsense. Whenning 04:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

First off, not all that many "popular rappers" follow the Nation of Gods and Earths. A few rappers, who aren't all that popular anymore (Wu-Tang Clan, Busta Rhymes, and Big Daddy Kane. Second, I don't know where Jews came from here, but only the idea of white supremacy is the only thing really attacked. As for smarmy, no, these are good people in the same vein as Orthodox Jews and Shia Muslims. By the way, "retarded"? "Retards"? What is wrong with you? Rever e ndG 07:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Your response is amazingly intellectually dishonest. Wu-Tang Clan and Busta Rhymes aren't popular? It's far more than that, as well: Rakim, Brand Nubian, and many others. Wu-Tang has sold millions of albums; just because someone isn't currently on the Top 40 charts doesn't mean they aren't successful. Where Jews come in is that it's well-known that typical people drawn to this ridiculous pseudo-religion/quasi-cult that you ascribe ridiculously grandiose titles to are anti-Semitic and racist. That's why at the recent New Black Panther Party protests in response to the shooting of Sean Bell people were encouraging other blacks not to patronize white-owned businesses. I'd ask what's wrong with you, "reverend". Whenning 23:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

why are you so angry at something you be-lie-ve to be untrue, i can feel the anger in your comments, further more why would you even waste your time on this site if you didn't think that there was sum truth in what is being said on here. Read the text with a open mind and maybe you'll get the way it was actually suppose to be interpretated, instead of coming with your ignorant responses. Allah universal has tried to answer questions posed at the 5%ers for your benefit not his. BLESS 82.45.227.90 17:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Prophetp 4rom the U.K

I have no idea where most of you people get ur information but ya'll are incorrect. I myself am a member of the Nation of Gods and Earths. And yes we do believe that we are Gods and Queens. But, In no way shape or form are we a racist group. If U remember correctly Malcolm X followed into the Nation of Gods and Earths when he left the Nation of Islam. Malcolm himself left because he knew that what was taught in the NOI was wrong. We are not a Anti-white group, nor are we pro-BLACK. We endorse and promote in the positive and correct teachings of life. We look at history and apply it to our daily lives knowing that the mistakes in the past strengthen us in the future. If you are a 10% that is the only way that you would even think that we are negative. We spread Peace and positive upbringings. I dunno what magazine ya'll read, or what reporter told ya'll wrong but ya'll have the complete misunderstanding of us. We strive off of gaining knowledge, wisdom(e) and having the abilty to obtain a correct understanding. So once again, we are not a gang. And we do not condone in any form of destruction. Whether it be physically, or mentally. Only positive Buildings. PEACE!!! I-Talib Ali Allah OWT!!!

[edit] Changing POV tag?

Instead of arguing over whether or not one agrees with 5% ideology, what can we do to get this article NPOV? It would be nice to include a section on the 5% take on the "white devil" issue, but research is so scant on this topic that it's hard to determine. Also, the "in-depth scholarly article" is not so in-depth, as I've discovered in my own research, so I've changed that. While the information is good, he glosses over some stuff. Knittatron 00:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there anyway to request moderation on this article from the greater Wiki community? I have attempted to make substantive changes to this work over time and feel constantly thwarted by a small but dedicated band of 5% apologists. Ason Abdullah 03:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty new to WP, so any suggestions you have would be very helpful. I'll try to request moderation. I think that it is helpful to have Fiver Percenters work on this article, but the article needs to reflect the most objective presentation of NGO. This is hard for this article due to the sheer lack of scholarly sources on the topic, all of which treat NGO as a culture/way of life/political movement OR a religion, but not both, for whatever reason.Knittatron 17:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The official website has virtually no information. This seems like a futile task. How do you document something that has less documentation than the latest failed video game?Deathwish238 00:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added Unreferenced Tag

I added this tag because while there is some good info in this article, there are no sources whatsoever. I am currently overwhelmed by work and school, but I do have some sources as I have done research on this topic. It may take me awhile to dig them up. Knittatron 17:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

This article, or a portion of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors in April 2007. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

Copyeditor(s): MuzikJunky 07:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] website

The offical website looks like it was made by amateurs....and it contains little information! If you can't learn about The Nation of Gods and Earths from their offical website where can you? It seems like it has more advertisments than anything else.

Check it out if you haven't already: http://www.allahsnation.net/

The only thing it has is a page called What We Teach...and it even has a dead link at the bottom. ---Deathwish238 16:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)