Talk:The Murder of Roger Ackroyd

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is this gonna be an issue?

That is a site that copies wikipedia content, see Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks/Mno#Nationmaster. DES ^(talk) 21:05, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Two spoiler warnings -- excellent idea, particularly with this novel. If people still ignore them it's their own fault. Future contributors, please think twice before removing the second warning. --KF 08:40 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I've added how the book nearly got Agatha tossed out of the Detection Club. The book is probably the most controversal mystery fiction book of the 20th century, simply because Christie used an original plot device in the book to fool everybody. It certainly worked. I was fooled by it, but totally remember reading the last part and sucking in my breath when the final reveals took place. I realized I had just read the work of a genius.

[edit] Spoiler warning

A spoiler warning simply isn't enough in this case because it's too easy to read the murderer's identity inadvertently, and once known it won't be forgotten. So I modified the text to leave the resolution out. It simply shouldn't be left where it can too easily spoil the novel for a hapless reader. Vincent 05:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

good solution Bwithh 05:37, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree to some extent. With whodunit stories, merely one or two words identifying the killer can instantly unravel thousands of words of plot. As far as I can tell, other whodunit stories discussed on Wikipedia also delicately skirt around the exact identity of the killer. --Interiot 06:07, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

If we're not going to divulge the murderer's identity, then this warning:

"Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details about the murderer's identity follow."

is superfluous, and in fact is inaccurate. Frankly, any reader who sees that warning - in bold, italicized text at the top of the summary - and still reads the article has no complaint that he has seen the identity of the killer. In the edit I made that was just deleted (taking other relevant content with it), the identity of the killer required at least one PgDn.

In this particular case, I believe that the identity of the killer is critical to a discussion of the book, because the killer's identity was a major part of the resulting controversy, and because Christie's decision to make him the killer was a watershed moment in detective fiction. | Klaw Talk 04:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

As I said above, a spoiler warning isn't enough. I think the wiki guidelines state that wikipedia isn't a discussion forum and that we shouldn't use it to propose our own opinions or theories. It's sufficient to say that the book exists, that it's good, and that it's controversial. The spoiler is especially bad.

If anyone wants to discuss the book, they should read it first. If they want to read, then they should have it unspoilt. Vincent 08:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

(Repeating comments from Vincent's talk page.) I disagree with your comments on two grounds. One, mentioning the unreliable narrator doesn't give the ending away. It points out that the narrator isn't to be believed, but that doesn't mean that he's the killer. Two, more importantly, the article can't just be tailored to people who haven't read the book, but has to also consider people who have read the book and are looking for more information on it. I think the second group is a lot more significant, since it would be foolhardy to look up an article on a mystery novel one hasn't read, and by ignoring the critical literary element in the book, we're doing a major disservice to people who have read it and are looking for details.

Incidentally, your comment about proposing "our own opinions or theories" is irrelevant. There is no question over whether Christie used the unreliable narrator or not. | Klaw Talk 16:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean to tell me that this encyclopedia article acts so coy about revealing the killer because, despite the spoiler warnings, we're afraid of ruining the story? This is an encylopedia article, not a back blurb teaser for the book. We can't give full coverage of the novel without disclosing the identity of the killer. The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is primarily notable because of who the killer is. And for that matter, discussing Bayard's theory, whether or not you like it (I don't), without explaining who he hypothesizes is the true killer (he thinks it's Shepard's sister), is equally absurd. Are you arguing that Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back shouldn't disclose the fact that Darth Vader is Luke's father? Ferret-aaron 17:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, due almost entirely to the objections of one user who ignored the spoiler warning when he read the article. I am in full agreement with you, aaron - the article is incomplete without a discussion of the killer's identity. | Klaw ¡digame! 17:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Most Agatha Christie book articles are incomplete then, because most seem to discuss as much about the books as possible, without actually revealing the killer's identity. --Interiot 19:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I meant to say that in the case of this particular book, the killer's identity is critical to a complete discussion. This book has literary value beyond the mystery genre because of who the killer is. | Klaw ¡digame! 19:15, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Very good point. Okay, most mystery novel articles should be coy, but I agree that this one should be more forthright about the killer's identity. --Interiot 19:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm of the opinion that most mystery novel articles shouldn't be coy. This is, as I said, an encyclopedia, not a source of back blurb teasers. In order to be encyclopedic, we should not be stopping the plot resume before the end of the story, for any reason. Could we get rid of spoiler warnings altogether, I would support it, but I recognize that people coming from a search engine may not recognize that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus spoiler warnings are necessary. But despite this, WP is still an encyclopedia and we should not be withholding information because it might ruin the ending. Ferret-aaron 22:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand why the article is skipping around the killer's identity in its present state. If you read the "controversy" paragraph, even though the solution isn't directly given to you, I think there are enough clues for the reader to figure out the big twist. So why be vague? Either don't tell a thing, or just be blunt about it.... which is what I would recommend since this is an encyclopedia, not a teaser for the book. Readers should be careful reading about fiction works on here if they don't want to be spoilt, *especially* as there's a spoiler warning, so they can't say they weren't warned. Right now it seems like the article can't really make up its mind, do we give the killer's identity or not? so it tries to make both sides happy, but that makes little sense. Big D -- 25 January 2006

I've restored the spoiler outright, as per Wikipedia:Content disclaimer, specifically Wikipedia contains spoilers. This is a reference work, not Amazon.com; the article should discuss the work in whole, ideally. The spoiler warning exists and is enough. If I am reading an encyclopedia article about a work, I expect it to be discussed completely, and especially so if that ending was considered controversial at the time. Girolamo Savonarola 11:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think that's the right way to go. On the other hand, I ignore many {{spoiler}} warnings, and would like to have an especially strong version for whodunit articles like this, along the lines of "Warning: This novel has surprising plot twists that are central to the story, and these plot twists are discussed in detail below. If you plan on reading the book in the future, you're strongly encouraged to skip this section". --Interiot 19:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more trivia

Isaac Asimov borrowed Christie's device in his science fiction/mystery novel THE CURRENTS OF SPACE. Although the guilty party does not narrate the story, part of it is narrated (third person) from his point of view without giving away his guilt -- which means that it does technically "follow the rules" CharlesTheBold 05:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler (2)

I noticed that the spoiler warning was removed and re-added and removed again... many times, in spite of the discussion above (it looks like the community decided to use the spoiler warning on this particular article). I tried to restore it... and I discovered that Template:Spoiler has been deleted... sorry, I didn't know the en.wiki policy about spoilers is different from the corresponding it.wiki policy. I apologize again! --KingFanel (talk) 13:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)