Talk:The Monkees

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[edit] This is really poor - some1 with expertise needs to get her. NOW

To jls: The Monkees did in fact play on some of their hit songs, including "The Girl I Knew Somewhere", "Pleasant Valley Sunday", "Words" and "Daydream Believer." No where in the article does it state that The Monkees wrote the hit songs...the names of the songwriters are clearly given credit. (Did you read the article in full?) Your notion that the songs are good and that it's merely a tribute to only the songwriters is yet another naive and uninformed opinion of the Monkees. Nobody cared who wrote the songs, people bought the records because they liked how they sounded and the personalities who sung them. How many people out there know that Carole King wrote "Pleasant Valley Sunday"??? Not many. But they do know who sang it, and they liked it, and that's a tribute to the Monkees themselves. If it's only the songwriters who mattered, then how did the four Monkees fill up Wembley Arena for two nights in 1997 when nobody was on stage but just the four of them? --Music Fan 26 Mar 2005


Early in the article it says Nesmith and Tork were professional musicians, which implies Jones and Dolenz weren't. But later it says all four were accomplished musicians. Which is it? Goes to the motivation of why the producers didn't let the Monkees play.
Fixed! (Wording of article needed correction)


Look, I agree the Monkees were very popular - I was around back then, and for a time in late 1966/early 1967 there were people who thought the Monkees were overtaking the Beatles. And their popularity then and now is largely attributable to their visual and singing personalities, and that's ok. The article is much better now with those long lists removed. However I still feel that the tone of the article is too defensively pro-Monkee. The songwriters and session players used for the Monkees' hits were better writers and musicians than the Monkees themselves, and that just deserves to be made clear in a non-defensive manner. And if you want another good example of this happening, Brian Wilson exclusively used session musicians on all but one track of Pet Sounds, because the Beach Boys weren't good enough for what he wanted to get. Beach Boys fans don't try to pretend otherwise. --jls 28 Mar 2005


I have re-read the article twice and submitted to another person for reading, and we both agreed that the article is fair and extensive. The article does not pretend them to be anything they are not...session musicians are noted as being used, as well as the Brill Building songwriters. It does not come out and say the Monkees are better than the Beatles, the article in fact says that the Monkees paled in comparison to the Beatles when the whole controversy over the band started in 1967. The article also notes that the band returned to session musicians for later recordings. Again, it appears to me that you want the article to be the typical snow job on the Monkees, without giving them the least bit credit. Even Rolling Stone Magazine, the #1 critic of the Monkees in the '60s, in recent years called the band and its output an example of 'fine 1960's pop.' Those who have written the article have provided a sound and accurate depiction of the Monkees. I encourage you to re-read the article again and provide a second assessment. For example, country singer George Strait has had 50 #1 hits, and he wrote NONE of them. Does that make him any less talented or less of an influence? --MusicFan 28 Mar 2005


I take your points, and I don't think that our disagreement is that large; I have no problem with that RS assessment, for example. Rather than try to explain my view further, I've made some edits which I think give better balance to the Monkees' story. Do with them as you will. I've also changed the order of the Hendrix paragraph to improve the flow. I've also added a description of the four Monkees "personalities", which it seems to me is a major item that had been left out. -- jls 28 Mar 2005.

jls: Your revisions are great: I enjoyed the debate! --MusicFan 29 March 2005

[edit] Dolenz, Jones, Boyce and Hart

I think there should be a little blurb in there about that incarnation. googuse 16:51, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] [Boy meets world]

should it be mentioned that three of the monkees were on an episode of boy meets world--aaronpark

[edit] The Monkees Sequel TV Show

I seem to recall a sequal TV show called something like "The New Monkees" or something like that. It was based on a punk rock group put together the way the originals were. It didn't last long and was a failure, but does deserves maybe a mention. -- Benjamin (Not a member, but is being tempted) 8/14/2005

You are correct, except they weren't punk. Just created article The New Monkees. MakeRocketGoNow 02:51, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, they were very 80s. I added it to timeline near the 1986 revival stuff —Fitch 05:16, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Modern boybands

"Modern" boybands, such as Busted and McFly, currently ARE shown playing musical instruments and actually do play instruments in live shows. The "tightly harmonized ballads/synchronised dance routine" type boybands aren't really around any more, save for ones like the Backstreet Boys who are from a time when there was more of that type of boyband. So if they are to be compared to modern boybands, they should be compared to modern boybands, not a type that has been all but defunct in the last three years. Plus even in the late '90s/early 2000s heyday of those type of manufactured bands, a lot of them DID contribute to the songwriting efforts on the albums.

It's a little unfair as well to imply that the Monkees are superior to "modern" boybands because of the critical acclaim they had decades later and the fact that their songs are still being played today. We have no idea what will or won't be critically acclaimed or played on radio stations decades from now. I'm not neccesarily defending modern manufactured bands, I'm just trying to be fair. This thinly veiled "manufactured bands were better in my day" view isn't a NPOV.

asc, 18th October 2005

I am not sure why modern boybands are mentioned at all. These boybands seem to follow the Motown creations like The Four Tops (and countless others) which were in development before The Monkees. The Monkees were something else again and the modern boybands would have developed in their Motown model even if The Monkees never happened. I don't believe that the The Monkees really figure in this phenomenon. Asa01 00:45, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The Four Tops is not really a good example - they predate Motown Records by five years. In fact, none of the Motown groups that made it big were assembled by the corporation... but Motown had a crack staff of writers/composers and producers that kept the groups on the stage and in the public spotlight. The Motown groups were together before they were signed to the Motown label (most of them formed while the members were still in high school), unlike the Monkees and the 80s/90s "boy bands." 147.70.242.40 02:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Micky Dolenz

What is your source for the Micky Dolenz multiple murder story? I can't find it in any archived newstories for Topeka, but the archives prior to 1995 are limited.

 What is this reference about????  I can't find any reference to Micky Dolenz and multiple murders in Topeka????  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fate7 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another Dolenz factoid

Since there is no answer to the above, and the incident no longer appears in the article, I'm going to nick (UK slang for steal/purloin) this box;

In the text it states that Dolenz has his kit set up for a left hander (and offers an explanation). It should be noted that Ringo Starr is left handed yet plays a right handed kit set up. I don't know if this is serendipity or an attempt to emulate The Beatles sound.LessHeard vanU 18:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


The difference here is Dolenz uses a kit that is set up for a left hander, but plays right-handed (hits snare drum with his left hand), while Ringo plays a kit set up for a right hander and plays right-handed. (WL)

Ringo plays right handed to a degree, I recall a Musician Magazine interview from the 80's where he points out that he leads in to his drum fill with his left hand instead of his right hand.

[edit] Notable achievements

 This article does not cite any references or sources. (February 2007)
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed.
  • Had the top-selling American single of 1967 ("I'm a Believer").
  • First use of solarisation in a major motion picture.
  • First television series to show teenagers living on their own.
  • First rock band to use a multimedia live concert show.
  • First band to use a Moog modular synthesizer in a top-10 single ("Star Collector").
  • Gave the Jimi Hendrix Experience their first US concert appearances.
  • First "manufactured" rock band (The Original Pre-Fab Four).
  • The Monkees reunion tour was the largest grossing tour of 1986.
  • Last music artist to win the MTV Friday Night Video Fights by defeating Bon Jovi 51% to 49%.
  • Introduced Tim Buckley to a national audience, via his appearance in the series finale, "The Frodis Caper".
  • Featured the only appearance by a villain from the "Batman" series in another sitcom when The Penguin (Burgess Meredith) made a cameo appearance in "The Monkees Blow Their Minds." Also had Julie Newmar (Catwoman) as the female lead in "Monkees Get Out More Dirt".
The above is copied directly from the article, and had remained unsourced for months (as seen). If citations can be found, this can be re-integrated into the article, though hopefully in less of a laundry-list format. 74.134.255.99 11:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian concert appearances

21:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)142.245.193.10I believe this article as it stands now (June 18, 2007 -- one day after Mickey played two dates in the Toronto area) is quite good.

BUT -- it has one major flaw.

Almost without exception (that one exception being Mickey and Davy "Live in Toronto, 2002) this article makes no mention of CANADIAN concert appearances -- not for the original 4 Monkees or for any of the subsequent reunions and semi-reunions.

I think it is a critical flaw to have Canadian appearances subsumed and made invisible by referring to "tour of the US" or "US tour dates."

For example, I know for a fact that the original Monkees played Toronto; and I know that the "pre-Fab 3 (Mickey, Davy and Pete) played Winnipeg in 1989. But you would never know it from this article. Yet all of this info is readily available to anyone genuine interested in an accurate portrait of the Monkees.

For the sake of both accuracy and balance, I think this info should be included.


Oh, and that "Live in Toronto" concert in 2002 featuring Mickey and Davy (Monkeemania)? It wasn't in Toronto. It was at Casino Rama in Orillia, Ontario -- about 90 minutes or so outside of Toronto.

142.245.193.10 21:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Steve Zodiac

[edit] The Beatles or the Beatles?

Is it "the Beatles" or "The Beatles"? This article uses both conventions.

Vocaro 05:14, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Harry Nilsson

This bit it a little off:

But both supporters and critics of the group agree that the producers and Kirshner had the good taste to use some of the best pop songwriters of the period. Neil Diamond, Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart, Gerry Goffin and Carole King, Harry Nilsson, Barry Mann, Cynthia Weil

While it is true that they did a couple of Nilsson's songs, it was after Kirshner had been fired. I believe that the Monkees were one of Nilsson's earliest supporters.

[edit] Micky, Davy, Mike, and Peter's Influence

Over 40 years later this argument continues. The fact is, the actual four Monkees themselves had forced some of their own influence on the music during the Kirshner controlled days, and were the creative minds behind the music from "The Girl I Knew Somewhere" on. They did provide the musical direction, and did provide much of their own instrumentation (Especially Mike and Peter) and recorded many songs they had written. Nesmith had already written and published material (Under the name Michael Blessing) prior to the Monkees and has written songs post Monkees that have been recorded by other artists. Nesmith written material was included on the Monkees albums even during the Kirshner controlled days.

To say that they didn't or couldn't play and write is simply incorrect. To say that Micky was not as good a drummer as "Fast" Eddie is absolutly correct, but then few could make that claim, the very reason Eddie was chosen. Micky could have played drums in the studio, even though not to the level of Eddie, and did in some cases, but during most of the mix mode days, he chose not to. Since Micky never really wanted to be a drummer, he didn't put much of his effort there. He is a natural front man. He had been a gutiarist in a band prior to the Monkees, he owned one of the first Moog synthesizers. He prefered playing other instruments and working vocals to being a drummer. For the most part, Eddie was the drummer for the Monkees in the studio during the mix mode days, but that was common. Hal Blaine was as much the drummer for the Beach Boys, as Eddie was for the Monkees, and as George Martin was a Beatle. Many studio recordings of that day, including the Beatles, consisted of 20+ musicians representing 4 or 5 man bands, but this does not diminsh the talent or influence of the band members.

The four Monkees wrote much of their own music. They did not write ALL of their music. Considering the volume that they were expected to put out (4 albums in 1967 alone) and working a full time TV series, writing all of their own music would be impossible. The level of influence they had on the music should have been impossible, but was accomplished. Still, the output was what the four Monkees (either collectively or individually) created. The interpetation of the music, whether written by them or someone else, had their personalities and creativity in it as the controlling influence. This became even more evident when they recorded songs separately and the influence of the individual members could be easily identified. Elvis Presley wrote very little, but his creativity and interpetation of the music he recorded gave it a quality that was exclusively his and unmistakable. It never existed on the page or when the same song was produced by someone else. Wilson and McCartney wrote much of their own music, but their interpetation of their own music is what gave it the artistry it had. Their creativity was apparent in the parts that they performed as well as the parts performed by the (usually exceptionally talented) session musicians under their guidance. The Monkees controlled music was no different.

The early Monkees music was the creativity of Kirshner, Boyce, and Hart with Monkees influence (especially Mike)pushing in. The post Kirshner music was the creativity of the four Monkees members. Mike and Peter are, and were at the time, talented musicians by all accounts, including the Beatles which were pretty much the highest authority on the subject for that time. Micky and Davy are very talented vocalists and had some instrumental talent. Feelings on the output of any band is purely subjective, but in any case, the four became a band that was capable and legitimately successful.

[edit] Please verify

Will somebody that knows this band please verify these changes? I can't tell if this is nonsense or real [1]. Thanks, sorry I couldn't revert if it is indeed vandalism...I didn't know for sure. DigitalNinja 03:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations & References

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 06:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scope of Article

I wanted to work on this article a bit, but I realized there is one large issue that would dictate how I proceed. Theoretically, there should be separate articles that discuss The Monkees as a TV series and The Monkees as a musical act/musicians.Minerwerks (talk) 15:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)