Talk:The Mists of Avalon

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Reviewed version: May 4, 2007

Contents

[edit] Taliesin

I noticed that someone changed the bits for Patricious, Arthur, and Lancelot to more reflect NPOV, but Taliesin, in my opinion, still doesn't say enough about his character. "Taliesin is the old Archdruid and harpist of Avalon. His mental health constantly deteriorates during the story. " This seems to be able to be strectched into at least three to four sentances, for even though his mental health does diminish, he is still extremely wise until right before Viviane is killed... I am not sure what to put though... Billvoltage

I agree, perhaps something along the lines of "Taliesin, who corresponds to Merlin in other tellings of the tale, is Archdruid of Avalon, he is a wizened old man when the tale starts. He is one of Arthur's most trusted councilors when he comes into his inheritance, but he is undone witnessing the murder of Viviane, and a new Merlin is chosen by Avalon." . . . its a start. L Hamm 02:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
That is a great start...Billvoltage 21:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plot

I'm writing a plot synopsis as a part of a project for school. Anyone mind if this goes up when it's done? Any rules for this? DuctapeDaredevil 05:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be an excellent idea to include a synopsis, that has been the norm for other entries on books and it would greatly enhance this article. L Hamm 16:34, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
It's in. It may be POV, but I can't tell right now. Hopefully, it's mostly ok, though weeding may be necessary. It's loooong. DuctapeDaredevil 04:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Dispute

The statement that the novel's... sole purpose seems to be to denounce and defame Christianity is inaccurate and unfair. It is a complex story and readers find reasons both to sympathize with and to revile virtually every character at some point.  ?One could argue that it is unbalanced, treating women and Pagans in a much kinder light than men and Christians, but the purpose of the novel seems to be to entertain by telling a familiar story with a fresh (and often shocking) point of view.

:You could also make the argument that the novel is gender and religiously neutral because all of the characters, no matter their gender or religion, have faults and problems until they realize that fighting and domination isn't important as long as the values survive. Also, I would like to mention that throughout the avalon series christianity is always viewed positively when it is a small religious sect, it's only portrayed negatively when politics are involved. Similarly, the pagan religions are positive only when people try not to control succession, which I think is portrayed most strongly in The Forest House. I think it might be more accurate to say the book is a criticism of hierachal religion trying to interpret 'god' through a figurehead, rather then finding indvidual spiritual peace.User:x 14:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and have reverted the comment until its been discussed. The problem with the comment is it is not encyclopedic. To say "sole purpose seems to be to denounce and defame Christianity", the indication is that attributes the motive of the author was defamation when Marion Zimmer Bradley has expressed her reasons and it is an opinion not expressed in published reviews of the book. The issues of cultural change in Britain is treated from a particular viewpoint and this is made explicitly. L Hamm 02:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Upon originally reading the novel (in Danish translation) at the age of 14 or 15, I found the feminism very strong and somewhat repulsive (I've never liked Christianity, so those aspects would never have bothered me). I still dislike feminism, now more than when I was a teenager, but last year I tried re-reading it, in the original language, and although I only got about 1/4 in (it was a library book and I had to return it), it didn't strike me as offensive or anti-male. It's certainly clear that it was written by a woman, but not in any way from a "men are evil"-perspective. And it's a book I'd like to read in full.--Peter Knutsen 01:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
The main male cast comes off arguably badly. Arthur and Lancelot are depicted as so tortured, insecure and brooding that it is hard to suppose that they are two of the finest warlords ever, Gwenhwyfar's father is a prototypical family tyrant, Gorlois comes over as a typical wife-batterer, Taliesin as near-senile and Patricius as a rabid religious zealot. I find this bit here troubling. When I first read this book (2000, age 11) I found Arthur and Lancelot as real people, rather than the lager-than-life characters that they generally are; real poeple who have problems dealing with, among other things, romance. I found Gwenhwyfar's father (what little we saw of him) as a man who wanted nothing more than more power for himself. He was willing to comprimise his daughter for this. I found Gorlois, not as a wife-batterer, but as a man who was extremely loyal to his King and God. However his viewpoint was, in most of today's societies viewpoints, wrong. Taliesin I found to be the complete opposite of what the above section calls him. I found him as a venerable and wise old sage, who, as most people do, lost some of his mind as time went on. Lastly, I found Patricius, not as a rabid zealot, but as a man who wanted his religion (and (to him) the true religion) to stay in the world. He was willing to succumb to the will of a book, and to do as it told him. He happened to have the influence to make others do as he wanted them, and, through him, as the book wanted them to act.
In short, I find the "man are evil" theory de-bunked, and would like to see this re-written in more of a neutral POV... Billvoltage
I altered the description of the third part. And altered the entry on Morgause, the original wording seemed to suggest that she was unashamed of her adultery because she was pagan, this, if we read the text seems false, Morgause if unashamed of her adultery because of her self-centeredness.L Hamm 04:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reception

Unless someone can document that human sacrifices were performed in the religion portrayed in Avalon, then that large second sentence of the reception is entirely hearsay. Further, an actual review might be cited for credibility.L Hamm 04:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The amazon.com reviews are different - pointing out the unique setting for an Arthurian legend, at the cusp of the Christian era in Britain, and the political intrigues that no doubt troubled the court particularly with factions loyal to the familiar religions and the new religion manipulating the hero to their own private agendas. I would suggest we look at that review, as it seems more articulate, and look for a library quarterly review. L Hamm 04:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Horrendous.

Not the book - the article. I'm currently reading the book and enjoying the heck out of it, but this article needs a drastic rewrite or to be gone from Wikipedia. It seems to be attempting to retell the entire plot of the book when instead a synopsis would be more helpful.

Rather than narrating the whole book, the article should say "here are the specific ways in which Bradley's approach to the Arthurian legends differ from other tellers", ie., female and pagan viewpoint, portrayal of mythic figures as mere humans, etc., etc. What a Wikipedia reader loading this article wants to know is, "Why should I read this book rather than any other of the many books on the same subject? What's special or unique about Bradley's take on it?" They don't want the whole thing read to them - that's what the book is for.

At the same time, though, I hesitate to do a rewrite on the large scale needed all at once, since that will probably step on a lot of toes. I'll wait some time for comments here before I begin trimming the fat. -Kasreyn 05:21, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that User:DuctapeDaredevil, you drafted the initial synopsis. I agree with you Kasreyn that it would be better to edit it for length and content so as not to be a ClifNotes.L Hamm 23:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for it being so long. I trimmed for an hour, and still couldn't decide what to leave out. You guys beat it to death if you want, or even remove it. DuctapeDaredevil 03:12, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for being so nice about it after what I said. Looking over my comment, I'm a little embarassed for being so harsh with you. I'll see if I can do some trimming, and I'm sorry for biting your head off. -Kasreyn 08:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
It's ok. I was actually thinking the same things myself, like right after I put it up. DuctapeDaredevil 01:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Character Lists

In addition to editing down the summary, what if we shortened the character lists? They are all found in the beginning of the book, and we don't want to give too much away, even though there are spoiler warnings. Perhaps on this page it could be shortened to two to three sentences on each character, and more added to a linking page? I think the layout of the His Dark Materials page is a good example, but this is just a suggestion. (Specifically, I think the Morgaine and Kevin bits are kind of long) --Ecurran 09:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miniseries

Why is the mini-series included in this article? If no one objects, I will make a new page for it. Stoa 22:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Info moved to The Mists of Avalon (miniseries). --Fang Aili 20:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for moving the article, unfortunately I never got around to doing it. I corrected a few of the disambig. on some articles that should link instead to the miniseries (not the book). Stoa 22:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lead section

I've rewritten the lead section a bit, though I am still struggling with some of the wording. Is it better than the old one?

I don't think the word "feminist" should be used in the lead section unless Bradley herself described the book as such. (Strong women characters does not automatically mean the work is "feminist", though I know this is debatable.)

I also agree that the synopsis needs to be pared down a lot. (Great for CliffNotes, not so much for an encyclopedia. :) --Fang Aili 20:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Lead section looks good! :) I'm wondering though if this portion in the introduction needs to be there:

The Mists of Avalon is a stark contrast to other retellings of the Arthurian tales, which consistently paint Morgaine as an evil witch or sorceress. The typical battles, quests, and feuds are described as supporting elements to the women's lives, and King Arthur's reign is placed in the larger context of Britain's history.

...Or if we could somehow incorporate it into another section in the article or maybe minimize it into one sentence. Stoa 22:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I edited it. I was also bold and deleted the plot summary. I think the article needs something completely different (and shorter). --Fang Aili 說嗎? 17:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe that's a bit too bold. In the interests of archival, I'm going to copy the deleted plot summary section here to the talk page, so that if a decision is made to restore part of it, it'll be available. Surely a small plot summary isn't inappropriate. -Kasreyn 12:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, perhaps. My thinking was that in this situation, no summary was better than a very long summary. I definitely agree that a short plot summary is appropriate, and saving the long summary for possible future use is a good idea. Cheers. --Fang Aili 說嗎? 02:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I am going to use the Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels template in order to redo this article and incorporate portions of the plot summary in it. The template is more organised and will present a "neater" overview of the article. It's a big change so I will wait a couple of days to give ample time for any objections. Here is the original template which it will be formatted to: Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate - Stoa 00:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I like the template; go for it. --Fang Aili 說嗎? 02:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted plot summary section

- Template:Spoilers - - ===Book One: Mistress of Magic=== - The book retells the classic Arthurian legend, told mostly from the viewpoint of Morgaine. - - The story begins in Cornwall, with Igraine. She is visited by her sister Viviane, the Lady of the Lake, and her father Taliesin, the Merlin of Britain. They tell her about Uther, and say that she has to have his child. She refuses, defending her marriage to Gorlois. Viviane makes her promise to go to London and meet Uther. Gorlois, who has been away until now, returns and offers her the chance to come with him, and she accepts. In London, she and Uther meet, and they suffer from love at first sight, which Gorlois notices. He takes Igraine to Tintagel, and goes to fight Uther. Uther kills Gorlois in battle, and with Merlin's help, assumes the guise of Gorlois. He sneaks into Tintagel Castle, and sleeps with Igraine, and she conceives Arthur. - - Uther marries Igraine, and brings Morgaine and Morgause (Igraine's younger sister) to his court at Caerleon as well. Arthur is born, and grows up at court, with Morgaine given the role of sister-babysitter. When Morgaine is around eleven, Viviane comes to Caerleon because Arthur recives a head injury and her healing skillz are needed. She notices Morgaine, and tests her for the Sight. When she finds that Morgaine has it, and strongly, she makes plans to take her to Avalon to train as future Lady of Avalon. She heals Arthur and convinces Uther that Morgaine should come to Avalon, and Arthur should go to fostering at a trustworthy and obscure vassal's court. - - Morgaine then goes with Viviane to Avalon, and Arthur goes with the Merlin. In Avalon, Morgaine is trained to be a priestess of the Goddess, and learns herb lore, healing, and use of the Sight. Eventually, she takes the priestess-initiation test - she has to go out in the barge of Avalon, and come back, calling the Mists to part so she can return to Avalon. She succeeds, and is made a priestess. Soon, Viviane sends her to call the Mists for an important visitor, who turns out to be her son Galahad, now called Lancelet. They climb the Tor, a holy hill, and at a place where the Mists are thin, they see that a young woman has come through. This is Gwenhwyfar, a girl from the convent on Glastonbury, the isle that occupies the real-world location of Avalon. Lancelet is struck with love at first sight, but Morgaine is offended by Gwenhwyfar's statements about Avalon and her appearance, like one of the Fairies, and they show her back through the Mists. - - Soon, the Merlin comes with the news that Uther is dying. They plan for Gwydion to be sent to Dragon Island for the kingmaking, a ceremony where he must play the - Young Stag and kill the King Stag, a metaphor for the times when the new king had to kill the old. He must receive the blessing of the Spring Maiden, as well. Morgaine is chosen for the Spring Maiden, in an ancient form of preserving a bloodline – marrying sister and - brother. Later, they mention how this is done in Egypt, and even in Britain in ancient times. Morgaine plays the goddess of the hunt without knowledge of who the Young Stag is. As part of the - ritual, they sleep together, and in the morning, they realize what they have done. Morgaine becomes depressed, and we see no more of Gwydion for a while. Morgaine returns to Avalon, where Viviane introduces her to Kevin the bard, and tells her that she must perform another ritual, creating a scabbard for the - Holy Sword of the Mysteries of the Goddess, Excalibur, meaning 'cut steel'. The scabbard must protect the bearer from losing a fatal amount of - blood. She does, and Gwydion, now called Arthur, comes to receive the sword, with a promise to protect all of Britain, and remember Avalon, who set him on his throne. Arthur invites her to his crowning on the Isle of Glastonbury. - - Morgaine attends Arthur's crowning, and discovers that she is pregnant from her time playing the Spring Maiden. Morgause figures this out, and offers her help in casting it out, but Morgaine refuses, but continues to consider it. She returns to Avalon, and gathers the herbs required, but meets the Queen of Fairy, who convinces her to rethink her decision. Morgaine then leaves Avalon, and goes to Orkney, to live with her aunt, Morgause. When she runs from Avalon, she leaves her ritual knife, which is given to all priestesses. - - ===Book Two: The High Queen=== - In Orkney, she gives birth to a son, and names him Gwydion, after his father. His birth is hard, and Morgaine is told that she won't be able to have any more children. Morgause hears Morgaine muttering in her sleep after the birth, and coaxes her to continue talking while still asleep, and discovers that Arthur is the baby's father. Morgaine realizes what she has told Morgause and threatens to curse her unless she will keep it a secret. Morgause decides she will foster Gwydion at Orkney. - - Meanwhile, Gwenhwyfar is in the process of being married off to Arthur, with a dowry of horses and the Round Table. Igraine and Lancelet are sent to bring Gwenhwyfar to court for the wedding. Igraine notices that Lancelet looks at Gwenhwyfar the way Uther looked at her when she was married to Gorlois. Meanwhile, Lancelet and Gwenhwyfar are flirting very carefully, so that no one notices, or thinks Gwenhwyfar is unmaidenly. When they reach Caerleon, where Arthur holds court as his father did, Igraine approaches Taliesin, the Merlin, about it, but he says it is too late to do anything without offering offense to Gwenhwyfar's father, Leodegranz. Soon after, Gwenhwyfar and Arthur are married. Morgaine is at the ceremony, with Morgause, and her husband Lot, and her mother and brother notice her. Arthur presents Morgaine to Gwenhwyfar as a lady-in-waiting, after the ceremony, and Morgaine agrees. In the summer, a few years after, Morgaine tries to take Lancelet's mind off Gwenhwyfar, but Lancelet offends her, and in the morning, she leaves Caerleon. - - Soon after, Viviane is called to the home of Priscilla, the woman who fostered her son Balan as the twin of her own son Balin. Priscilla, being very ill and very old, asks Viviane to help her, and Viviane gives her a potion to kill her. Balin and Balan return, and Balin is extremely angry at Viviane, comparing her to Judas, as they both betrayed with a kiss. Viviane returns to Avalon, and using Niniane, another daughter of Taliesin, as a vessel for the Sight, asks about Morgaine. Niniane says that Morgaine ".. .sleeps in - the arms of the grey king..." (Bradley 350) - - Later, Gwenhwyfar travels to Cornwall, because Igraine is dying. Gwenhwyfar asks Igraine to use her Sight, or any magic she has to help her conceive, because she is barren, and Igraine says that Gwenhwyfar is pregnant now. After Igraine's death and burial, Gwenhwyfar asks the Abbess of the convent where Igraine lived to pray for her child. Gwenhwyfar sets out to Caerleon, but Gawaine finds them, telling them that he was supposed to take them to Camelot because of an impending battle, but they were well past the road for it, so they went on to Caerleon. When Gwenhwyfar arrives, there is an army, and people are talking about banners. Gwenhwyfar is angry that the ".. .sign of an ancient Devil-faith..." (368), the Pendragon banner bearing the serpents of Avalon, fly above an army that should be Christian. She begins work on a banner of the Virgin Mary, to replace it, and convinces Arthur to carry this instead of the Pendragon banner. He was sworn to carry the Serpents of Avalon as a sign of an ancient Britain, and when he took up Gwenhwyfar's banner, some of the Tribes who followed the rule of Avalon left his army. While Arthur is in battle, Kevin the bard comes to play for Gwenhwyfar and her ladies, but Gwenhwyfar is ill, and shouts at Kevin about how his Druidism was a sin, and she miscarries. Arthur, carrying her banner of the Virgin Mary, wins the battle. - - During all this, Morgaine's location is unknown. She tried to return to Avalon, to visit Viviane, but she cannot part the Mists, and so she goes in on a secret path, where the Mists are thin. But she doesn't get into Avalon, she goes to the Fairy Country. Afterwards, she thinks that she has been there between five and thirteen days. She finds Kevin the bard, on his way to Arthur's court at Camelot, and he lets her come with, on his horse. They talk, and he admits that women at the Beltane fires were afraid of him, so Morgaine makes up for this. They arrive at Camelot while Gwenhwyfar gets into an argument over the Beltane fires with Taliesin. Morgaine stayed at court, after this. At court Lancelet fights with a boy called 'Handsome' by Cai. This is Gareth, the brother of Gawaine. - - Later, it is nearly Beltane. Gwenhwyfar asks Morgaine for a charm to help her conceive, and Morgaine gives it to her. On Beltane, Arthur gets drunk, and admits he believes Gwenhwyfar's problem conceiving is his fault, and says that he, Lancelet, and Gwenhwyfar sleep together in his bed, and he would accept any child of Gwenhwyfar's as his own. Gwenhwyfar agrees. - - Morgause's husband, King Lot of Orkney is dead, and now Morgause rules on her own. She enjoys the freedom she has as sole ruler, and her power over Morgaine's son Gwydion. He evidently enjoys his power over her as well, shown when he makes every attempt to make a festival and succeeds. Later in the day, Viviane and Taliesin show up. They take this as a sing that Gwydion has the Sight, like his mother Morgaine. They bring him to Avalon to study the ways of the Druids. They also reveal his parentage to him. - - The next event held at Camelot is Pentecost, where Arthur has all his Companions (the Knights) come together to meet, and so Arthur could receive supplicants, and send knights to help them. Viviane comes as a supplicant, to remind Arthur of his vows to Avalon, which he was forsaking. Unfortunately, Balin was also there, and he was angry that a 'heathen murderer' was trying to turn the court from Christianity, and that she was threatening Arthur. He kills Viviane, splitting her head in half with an axe, left there earlier by Meleagrant when Arthur refused to accept his claim to the Summer Country. Arthur banishes Balin from Camelot, and says Viviane would be buried at Glastonbury. Morgaine and Kevin get into an argument, and Morgaine claims that Kevin is a traitor to Avalon. - - Gwenhwyfar rides out to the Summer Country to speak with Meleagrant, who was possibly a bastard son of her father, but the only person claiming to be his son. Meleagrant imprisons Gwenhwyfar's escort, intending to marry Gwenhwyfar and become king by the old law, which says that the consort of the Queen is the King. He rapes her, and locks her in a room. Meleagrant returns, later, but Lancelet kills him before anything else happens. After a moment of thinking it out, Gwenhwyfar decides that since God didn't reward her for being virtuous, she wouldn't bother. As they leave, she decides that she doesn't care what anyone thinks about her and Lancelet anymore. - - Soon after, Elaine, a lady-in-waiting of Gwenhwyfar and the daughter of King Pellinore, approaches Morgaine for a spell. She wants Morgaine to convince Lancelet to marry her through magic. Morgaine agrees, but in return, Elaine must give Morgaine her first daughter for fostering in Avalon. Using the telepathic part of her Sight, she has Arthur send Lancelet to help Pellinore hunt a dragon which as been ravaging his land. Morgaine has Elaine prepare a pavilion near a wood, slips a potion in Lancelet's wine, and has Elaine wear Gwenhwyfar's perfume. Morgaine tells Lancelet that Gwenhwyfar is sleeping in the pavilion by the woods, and he goes to her immediately. When Lancelet leaves, Morgaine wakes Pellinore, and takes him to the pavilion. Pellinore demands that Lancelet make amends, and marry Elaine. Gwenhwyfar becomes very angry at Morgaine for this. - - At the next Pentecost, Gwenhwyfar lets a secret slip, one that Morgaine told her; that Arthur had a son fostered at Lothian. Arthur calls Morgaine and asks her if it is true. Morgaine says "I bore a son to the King Stag, ten moons after your kingmaking on Dragon Island. Morgause has him in her keeping..." (550) Arthur, while knowing that it had been her at his kingmaking, didn't know that she had a son because of it. Gwenhwyfar was shocked that they would do something so un-Christian, even though it was before Arthur was really Christian, and Morgaine was still a follower of - the Goddess. She demands that Arthur confess, and do penance for this sin, so she can have a son, and Arthur agrees. - - While everyone is at Mass, Morgaine meets Accolon, the son of the King of North Wales. At the feast, Gwenhwyfar proposes to Arthur that he offer Morgaine to Uriens, the King of North Wales. Arthur approaches Morgaine abut this in such a way that she thinks that it was Accolon he was talking about. Morgaine accepts, and Arthur announces Morgaine's engagement to Uriens, completely surprising her. Gwenhwyfar realizes what has happened, and decides this was her revenge for what Morgaine did to Lancelet. Morgaine married Urines, and he turned out to be a good husband, listening to her council on things, and allowing her freedom. - - In North Wales, Morgaine recovers her knowledge of what it means to be a priestess of the Goddess, and what the rituals mean. This is helped by Accolon, who was trained in Avalon, and by Uwane, her youngest stepson, who shares his ideas about the Goddess. Accolon helps her celebrate the rites of Beltane, and in doing so, Morgaine recovers all her knowledge of being a priestess. - - Meanwhile, on Avalon, Niniane, the new Lady of Avalon is contemplating her situation - Avalon is sinking back into the Mists, and there are fewer and fewer women who come to preserve the old ways, and none to take her place as Lady of Avalon. Gwydion comes to speak with her, and she says she cannot even find a woman to play the Spring Maiden, because Gwydion is going to his kingmaking - which means that the Old People, a race that follows the rule of Avalon, no longer accept Arthur as their king. Gwydion says that he saw her playing that part. - - It is Pentecost again, and Lancelet is there. Gwenhwyfar is still angry at him, and Lancelet tells her the story of what happened, including Morgaine's part. Gwenhwyfar accepts this, and welcomes Lancelet as if he were kin, and no more. Morgause comes as well, bringing Arthur the gift of a horse from a fosterling of hers, who was in the Saxon country. Arthur and Gwenhwyfar both know who this fosterling is supposed to be. Morgause's taking Lamorak as a lover is discussed, and Gawaine supports her choice. The story of Tristan and Iesult is mentioned as well, but under the names Drustan and Isotta. Morgaine meets with Kevin, who discuses with her ways to turn North Wales back to the Goddess. They come up with making Accolon king, but he is the second son, and his older brother Avalloch is Christian. - - When Arthur begins receiving petitioners, he meets a messenger from a man called Lucius, who claimed to be Emperor of Rome. They refuse Arthur his title of High King, calling him Duke of Britain, and telling him that they have imprisoned Lancelet's brother Bors, of Less Britain. They say that Arthur can continue ruling Britain as he does if he sends a large tribute to Lucius. Arthur refuses, and sends them away. The Companions are to prepare for battle. Morgaine is sent by Lancelet to tell Elaine. - Morgaine goes to Pellinore's castle, to tell Elaine as Lancelet asked her. She does, but then demands her payment for having gotten Lancelet to marry Elaine. Elaine relents, and gives Morgaine her first daughter, Nimue. They leave the next day for Avalon. Morgaine teaches Nimue a bit about the Goddess, and of her views of Christainity and priests. Morgaine presents Nimue to Niniane, and is given a place to sleep. That night, a priestess and friend from her early years at Avalon, Raven, comes to visit. Raven had taken a vow of silence before Morgaine met her, and only used her voice for the most important of prophesies. Raven gives Morgaine a version of the fivefold kiss, and Viviane's ritual knife, taking for her own the one that Morgaine had left when she ran away from Avalon. (1) They also do a sort of blood-brother ritual, each tasting the other's blood. Morgaine sees this ritual as more sacred than the one that made her priestess. In the morning, Morgaine meets with Niniane, and is told that Accolon must receive the throne of North Wales. Morgaine also sees Gwydion for the first time in many years. - - Morgaine returns to North Wales, and is confronted by Avalloch about sleeping with Accolon. He threatens to tell Uriens, unless Morgaine will sleep with him as well. Morgaine fends him off, but Avalloch threatens that when he is King, he will outlaw worship of any god but the Nazarene. This is especially bad, because Uriens is very old, and sick, possibly dying. The next day, Avalloch goes hunting, and Morgaine does everything she can to keep Accolon in the castle. Morgaine offers to weave Avalloch's cloak for his wife, so she can spin. While she weaves, she goes into a trance, using her - Sight to call upon the Goddess and kill Avalloch, leaving Accolon the eldest son, and with clean hands. Morgaine explains her intentions to Accolon, telling him how Arthur deserted Avalon. She has Accolon swear to be champion of Avalon, should Arthur betray his oaths again, and plots to steal Excalibur's scabbard. - - Eventually, Arthur's family comes to Camelot, and Morgause brings Gwydion. Arthur greets him, and tells him that he shall be treated as his own son. As Gwydion's father is not mentioned, several wonder if Lancelet is his father, but using his Sight, Gwydion hears these thoughts and tells them this is not true. Galahad, Lancelet's son, is to watch by his arms, and take vows as a Companion in the morning. Gwydion speaks with Morgaine, and reveals that when he stayed with the Saxons, they gave him a nickname - Mordred, meaning 'evil council'. The next day, there is a tournament, and Gwydion challenges Lancelet. Lancelet accepts, and Gwydion nearly beats him, but Gwenhwyfar has the fight ended. Gwydion then requests to be knighted. Arthur agrees, and Lancelet knights him, proclaiming him Sir Mordred. - - Later that day, Morgaine, Mordred, Uriens, and Accolon have an audience with Arthur. Morgaine claims that Arthur blasphemed when he converted Excalibur, the Sword of the Mysteries of the Goddess, into a Christian cross to swear upon. Morgaine calls upon the Merlin, the title having been given to Kevin, to witness this. Everyone says that it had been a display, to catch the attention of the crowd. Morgaine reminds Arthur it was the Sword of the Mysteries, and to think of Avalon. The issue is let rest, and Arthur and Mordred discuss Mordred's place in the kingdom. Mordred is given his grandfather's title of Duke of Cornwall. - - The next morning, Morgaine wakes to the realization that she is pregnant. Despite this, she plots to steal Excalibur, or at least the scabbard. She has Accolon wait for her by a lake. She leads Arthur and Uriens into the Fairy Country, and is met there by Accolon. They go to a feast at the Fairy Queen's castle, and Arthur feasts, and falls asleep. Morgaine takes Excalibur and gives it to Accolon, and the Fairy smiths make Arthur a sword that looks like Excalibur, but the scabbard does not have the same power. Arthur wakes, and calls out to God, and the Fairy Country vanishes. They returned to Camelot. Uriens discovers that Morgaine is pregnant, and is very happy. Morgaine is not, and brews a potion to get rid of it. While waiting for the drug to take effect, she goes to where the other women are sewing and weaving, and begins to spin. While spinning, her Sight comes, and she sees Accolon and Arthur fighting. At this point, the drug takes effect, and she loses the vision and the baby. After she has recovered, Arthur sends a messenger, with the message that he has Excalibur and the scabbard, which he took back from Accolon upon having won the fight. He also sends the body of Accolon, which the messenger says is a gift. Uriens realizes what Morgaine has done, and is outraged. Morgaine gathers her priestess-things, leaves Uriens, and goes to Glastonbury. - - Arthur is being treated for his wounds at Glastonbury, and Morgaine goes to see him. She enters his room while he is asleep, and takes Excalibur's scabbard. She goes to the ferry and learns from the rower that they cannot cross into Avalon when the bells at Glastonbury Abbey ring. They wait until they have finished, and row out into the lake, Arthur riding after, shouting for Morgaine. She reaches the other side of the lake, still in the human world, and rides for Tintagel. After she has spent awhile at Tintagel, Kevin, the Merlin, visits Morgaine. He calls her the Lady of Avalon. She rides to Avalon, and is greeted by Niniane. Niniane takes her to the home of the Lady of Avalon. - - After a while, something rare happens. Raven's voice is heard. Morgaine has a dream, in which Raven says "The sword, the sword of the Mysteries is gone.. .now look to the cup, now look to all of the Holy Regalia.. .it is gone, it is gone, taken from us..." (759). Morgaine goes to Raven, to see if she has spoken, but she has just shared a dream. Raven knows that this dream is important, so she breaks her vow of silence to speak to Morgaine. In the morning, they go to speak to Niniane and Nimue. They go to look in the mirror, a pool of sacred water, which is used to See. In the mirror, they see Kevin the Merlin, and how he took the Holy Regalia out of Avalon. Morgaine, Raven, and Nimue go to Camelot, to deal with the traitor. Morgaine and Raven travel as beggar women, separately from Nimue. During this journey, Raven and Morgaine prove that lesbianism isn't a recent invention. - - They reach Camelot on Easter, still disguised. They stand among the beggar women at the end of the hall, and listen to the gossip. Soon, Arthur's bishop sets out the Easter Mass, because there isn't enough room in the chapel for everyone. Morgaine is shocked to find that the Cup of the Holy Regalia is going to be used for Communion. She stands, and approaches the altar, and takes the cup, giving Communion of the Goddess to everyone. Afterwards, she learns that everyone saw something different, mostly including her as a shining maiden dressed in white. Throughout this whole ritual, she feels Raven's presence, although she can't tell whether Raven is bearing her up, or standing at her side. Then, they use the Great Magic, the same magic that sent Avalon into the Mists, to send the Cup and Plate and Spear back to Avalon. As soon as this is done, Raven dies, having used all her power in this last magic. The Companions of the Round Table are convinced that this was the Holy Grail, the cup of Christ, and all except Mordred and Cai, Arthur's foster-brother and seneschal, set out to find it. - - After this, Nimue stays at court, to seduce Kevin. She does so, and performs a spell that makes him her slave, who does exactly as she says. She brings him to Avalon to face judgement. Morgaine decrees that he will have a quick death by sword. At the moment he is killed, a bolt of lightning strikes the ancient oak tree, which the Druids had revered since they had come to the island. Morgaine, has them bury him in the cleft in the tree. Unfortunately, the spell which Nimue used ensorcelled her as well, and she committed suicide out of her love for Kevin. - - After Kevin's death, Avalon retreats further into the Mists. Morgaine has time to meditate, and she discovers that the Goddess has never truly been an outside force, but herself, and all other women. She has visions of the Companions on their Grail Quests, seeing some die, and some succeed. Lancelet, failing in his quest, comes to Avalon to see Morgaine. While there, they visit the chapel the Christians placed on Avalon, before it went into the Mists. In the chapel, they have a vision of the Grail - Galahad receiving Communion from someone bearing the Holy Grail. As soon as this vision is finished, Morgaine and Lancelet find themselves with the body of Galahad. Lancelet returns to Camelot with Galahad's body in tow. - - The other knights are returning to Camelot by now, and Morgause is coming as well. Gwenhwyfar and Arthur have another argument about Mordred. It is Pentecost again, and there is a funeral for Galahad. At the feast afterwards, Arthur announces that Mordred is his new heir. Morgause stays at Camelot to be a lady-in-waiting to Gwenhwyfar. Mordred takes council of Niniane, but she says something that he doesn't like, and he hits her, accidentally killing her. Morgaine's voice calls him murderer, but Morgause comes to help him, staging it as an accident. - - Later, Gwenhwyfar goes to her tryst with Lancelet, but when she enters his room, Mordred grabs her, and holds a knife to her throat. Lancelet enters, and several knights come out of hiding, along with Morgause. The knights try to take Lancelet prisoner, but he escapes with Gwenhwyfar. In their escape, Lancelet accidentally kills Gareth. Morgause, needing a new man for her bed, and a bit in shock, invites Cormac, a Companion, to keep her company. Cormac is shocked, telling her he honors her as his - grandmother, and offers to forget this. Morgause realizes she is finally old, and accepts this. - - Lancelet and Gwenhwyfar plan to run away, to Less Britain, but Gwenhwyfar shows her most responsible side, and tells Lancelet to take her to Glastonbury, saying she will send a message to Arthur clearing Lancelet's name. Lancelet agrees, depressedly, and takes her to Glastonbury. Lancelet’s fate is left unmentioned. - - Soon after, Mordred brings the tension between him and Arthur to a climax. Mordred, as the Young Stag, must bring down Arthur, but Arthur defies Avalon one last time, killing Mordred and halting the cycle. Without Excalibur's scabbard, though, Arthur's wounds are causing him to lose too much blood. Morgaine arrives from Avalon, and finds both Gwydions, father and son, lover, brother, baby. - - She tells Lancelet to throw Arthur's sword into the Lake, to put the last of the Mysteries back in Avalon where it belongs. Lancelet refuses, twice, but relents, and throws it in, claiming that a hand reached up, caught the sword, and brandished it, before going back under the water. Morgaine lifts the Mists, and Arthur dies, watching the sun rise on Avalon for the last time. - - In the next year, Morgaine dreams Lancelet gave her Communion with the Holy Grail. Taking this as a sign, she takes a cutting of the sacred Thorn, grown from Joseph of Arimathea's staff, and goes to Glastonbury. She learns that Lancelet has just died, and plants the cutting on Viviane's grave. The young woman who tells her of Lancelet's death mentions that they had a Sister who was a High Queen, who Morgaine realizes was Gwenhwyfar. She then has a moment of meditation in front of the statue of the Virgin Mary that the Sisters of the Abbey care for and worship, understanding finally the theology that had been taught to her so many years ago...".. .all the Gods are one God, ... and all the Goddesses are one Goddess, and there is only one Initiator. And to every man his own truth, and the God within." (xi).

[edit] Wikipedia:Wikiprojects format

Oookay, so I re-did the article, as promised, Wikipedia:Wikiprojects style. I did not include the "plot summaries" of Book one and two because they are still too long. If we can trim some of the info. in there, maybe we can include it in the article. Having the detailed character list should be enough for now; key points in the plot are described in character descriptions. A few things that still need to be done that I didn't get a chance to do:

  • Check spelling concistency of character names
  • Make sure there are no repeated interwiki's
  • There are a few sections that are left blank, info is needed to be put under those sections

Stoa 03:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sacrifice

The criticisms section states that critics claim the novel completely omits pagan human sacrifices. But I'm quite sure that they talk about sacrificing the King for the land. L Hamm 14:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand that, but it doesn't happen, talk is talk, and action is action, and actions speak louder than words, as do deeds. My point being (though you couldn't tell from what I just said...), that I was trying to rephrase what had already been there to more NPOV, instead of just deleting it... (Oh, THOUGHT!!!: I believe that the human sacrifice of which we are speaking is an unwilling one, not one that the King had entered into upon his coronation. How does that sound. Or this (!!):
  • Although touching on subjects such as human sacrifice, Bradley omits unwilling sacrifice, only breifly mentioning the fact that, if the need were to arise, the king (or Merlin) would be forced to sacrifice himself in order for the land to grow strong again.Billvoltage 07:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
At one point in the book, the topic of unwilling human sacrifice is brought up, but in reference to how things were done in the past, if I recall correctly. By the time of Morgaine, it was something that was no longer done. Tarc 13:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gwen does not have agoraphobia!

From Wiki's own agoraphobia page:

Sufferers of agoraphobia fear crowded situations, especially in a confined space, where anxiety may escalate into panic attacks.

For much of the book, Gwen never felt safe without a wall, or a room, or some bit of solid reassurance protecting her from nature and the outdoors. I really don't feel like digging for a quote, but she tells other characters that she never felt safer than when she was in her convent at Glatonsbury, with the closed spaces and solitude. I would just go in there and make the edit, but Gwen is exactly the opposite of an agoraphobic.... and I have no idea what that word is.

No, she isn't the exact opposite of an agoraphobe. Agoraphobia includes fear of crowds, and while she isn't afraid of close spaces, she dislikes (maybe even fearing) crowds. (Thank you for signing your post.)Billvoltage 03:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Feminist Agenda"

The section under "Literary significance & criticism" (especially the last paragraph) sounds like it's trying to make an argument rather than presenting common criticisms. Does this belong on Wikipedia? Not to mention, the argument is a poor one; sexist elements in a story in itself does not imply a "sexist agenda", yet we always assume feminist elements does imply an agenda.154.20.130.167 19:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "Literary Significance and Criticism" Section

This section is full of weasel words, like "arguably reads" as feminist propaganda, and the like. If you want to keep it, re-edit it into a form with a proper argument.


The section also refers largely to web reviews. Surely there are more well researched, published sources that review the book. In particular, only one source of negative criticism- a fairly unnuanced Chrisitan web site,- is listed, making it too easy to dismiss the negative critique. (For the record, this is a favorite of mine, but there are flaws.) 131.238.30.93 22:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Common Themes in MZB's works beyond the Avalon series

It is possible that the "Fall of Atlantis"- a collection of three books, The Firebrand and even Heartlight, gravelight, ghostlight, witchlight are related. The books often center around a female character who is trying to find spirituality and who often feels like she has stumbled across a reincarnated path. Often the path is trying to preserve religion and struggle against others who force religion. More directly the snake/dragon tattoos are a recurrence in many, many of her novels implying that the characters may be reincarnate souls of the characters in Mists of Avalon.

[edit] Faled "good article" nomination

From WikiProject Novels, the following are missing from the standard template:

  • Infobox missing the image caption about the edition of the cover.
  • Lead missing inclusion of genre of novel. Lead also needs to briefly summarise the rest of the article (but not include plot info). See WP:Lead section for guidelines.
  • Missing "Explanation of the novel's title" especially as it is not immediately obvious.
  • Improper elaboration of "Major themes" section. Wikilinks do not satisfy the section and at least a general brief summary should be written. The wikilinks should only be provided as a last resort to provide further information or if the article is too long and the section is trivial. This is not the case for this article.
  • Allusions/references to other works missing. A lot of the information is in-universe style of the fantasy genre and hence hard to understand for the lay reader. Also, a "see allusions" wikilink is present within the article that leads nowhere hence this section must be included. This is especially true after considering that the novel was expanded into a series and that an adaptation was carried out.
  • Allusions/references from other works missing. If this is just one of a series of novels of Arthurian fantasy then the other novels should be mentioned.
  • No awards and nominations?

This is how the article, as of May 4, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: No. There are 1-sentence sections that should either be expanded/incorporated elsewhere. Also, there are minor grammatical errors. Lead needs expanding. Plot summary needs expanding. See Frankenstein.
2. Factually accurate?: No, or hard to tell. Uses very few references. Not enough information provided. See Fight Club. Please mention all the available information (author, publisher, date etc) in all the references.
3. Broad in coverage?: Seems to be thorough.
4. Neutral point of view?: Seems to be NPOV
5. Article stability? Stable.
6. Images?: Fair use rationale not provided for sole image used. It's not enough to use one of the tags as I learnt with my last GA nomination that I put forward.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — Zuracech lordum 16:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)