Talk:The Mass of Saint-Sécaire

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Religion Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
Stub	This article has been rated as Stub on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
	This article falls within the scope of the Left Hand Path work group. If you are interested in Left Hand Path-related topics, please visit the project page to see how you can help.

I've searched through many sites but can find no information as to who St-Sécaire is and why this kind of a ritual would be performed under his name.

--Machine gun molly 20:54, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Frazer did document a belief in this practice in one of the most vividly written passages in The Golden Bough - in fact, the article uses little pieces of Frazer's most memorable verbiage (the toads & owls bit - the current version of the article doesn't mention that Frazer has the toads "squatting beneath the altar" and the owls "moping and hooting in the gloaming"). Whether the Mass was ever actually celebrated is not clear from Frazer's account, and the reliability of his informants or secondary sources is beyond my ability to judge. I lack access to the multi-volume edition of TGB, and I don't know if it even has a proper bibliography that would allow one to make the call.

Complicating the issue is that Frazer's scholarship has not enjoyed consistent acclaim over the past few decades.

As much as I love Frazer's description, and as interesting a phenomenon as the Mass would be, it seems likely to be fictional or at best non-noteworthy and unconfirmable. It would not bother me to see this article VfDed (Update 26 Feb 2008: Confirmation is at hand (see my comment below). I retract this earlier position. Ccreitz (talk) 21:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC))

Machine Gun Molly, I have also done a bit of research on this topic, and could not identify a "St Sécaire" for whom such a black mass might be said. I'd be willing to give odds that the "Sécaire" whose name became attached to the story was just some locally infamous Gascon blackguard who could become a "Saint" to a notional black-mass Satanic cult. That's just a loose theory, based on the way that local bywords for various kinds of behavior arise. Lots of small towns have something similar, like the protective "Amy Pole" at the edge of my old high school's parking lot, named for a student who became a durable byword for bad driving.

Ccreitz 19:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Frazer's Source?

Did Frazer ever say what his source was? I found a book written in French from 1883, "Quatorze superstitions populaires de la Gascogne", by J. F. Blade, which may be the original collection containing the St Secaire legend. It is quoted in C.J.S. Thompson, "Mysteries and Secrets of Magic" (1973)Jimhoward72 (talk) 05:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC) In fact, if you read the description of Frazer and the description of Blade side by side, you can see that Frazer is quoting him almost word for word, basically, in today's terms, pure plagiary. So this article should probably only mention Frazer in passing, instead of portraying him as the source of the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimhoward72 (talk • contribs) 06:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting point regarding plagiarism. However, I don't think we can write off Frazer's part in it quite so much - for one thing, I would feel quite confident in saying that The Golden Bough (and not the French text) is the prime reason the Mass is remembered at all today. For another, I think it's a little harsh to accuse Frazer of lifting the description verbatim - presumably the Blade text is in French..? :) Also, can you point to any transcript or scan of the Blade text online? I'd be fascinated to see it! TCleghorn (talk) 12:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Jimhoward72: Does anyone have access to a copy of the Bladé book? Thompson's scholarship may be slipshod in this case; it may be that he is actually quoting Frazer rather than Bladé, and simply made an error in attribution during his research. Certainly, Thompson has a great deal to say about Frazer elsewhere in the book, and he was familiar with "The Golden Bough". (The Thompson book is available via Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=wAyj2bOu1EoC ) Ccreitz (talk) 00:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that link! I'd tend to agree with you - the "toads squatting under the deserted altar" is really just a paraphrase of what Frazer said, and would seem to me to be very much in keeping with Frazer's general verbal tone in the rest of TGB, indicating that Thompson was cribbing from Frazer. I'll be interested to see if a copy of Bladé pitches up - after all, it's far from unknown for people in this field to just make up sources... TCleghorn (talk) 01:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Just as a side note, I've found another, very similar reference [[1]] This one actually cites a page number in Bladé, but still has a very similar tone. TCleghorn (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

A copy of the Bladé book is currently on its way to me from the rare books department of the Cleveland Public Library (of all places!). I will scan and translate ASAP. TCLeghorn, could you give me the page number you got in your reference, so I can concentrate on the most interesting part to the participants in this discussion? Ccreitz (talk) 21:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Awesome, nice work! The page reference in Spence was p.16 and facing. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess there probably weren't many different editions of Bladé... :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TCleghorn (talk • contribs) 00:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

And finally, I have that copy of the Quatorze superstitions. As it turns out, while Frazer plagiarized the heck out of Bladé, he did compose the best parts himself: Bladé merely has the ruined church as a place where "les hiboux, les chouettes, et les chauves-souris font leurs paradis... sous l'autel, il y a tout plein de crapauds qui chantent" ("owls (horned and earless) and bats make their paradises... beneath the altar, there are many singing toads"), as oppposed to Frazer's toad-squatting / bat-gloaming-flitting / owl-moping-hooting. That evocative section aside, Frazer's description is a close translation of Bladé's account, with just a little reordering of sentences.

I will scan, hopefully OCR, and make available the source material as soon as I get a chance, so that everyone can get as much enjoyment from it as much as I am getting. Ccreitz (talk) 18:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So is the book, as the name hints, broken down into 14 sections of superstitions? Does he say where he got his sources? Do you think he was the original source for the story? It would be great if the Saint-Sécaire part could become a wiki-text - this article could link to it.Jimhoward72 (talk) 06:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It is structured as fourteen reports of interviews with informants, each discussing a different legend of Gascony. My copy is (frustratingly) missing some pages, so it's not ready for Wikitext just yet. The section on the Mass is complete, though, so I guess we could put that up in isolation for now. Also, the quality of the scans is not high - heck, I'd guess that the quality of the printing was not high, given that we're looking at a scholarly edition of fifty examples from the manual typesetting era - and so OCR is going to be impossible. I've begun transcribing the chapter on the Mass and will have it up shortly.

My copy was bound with Bladé's Contes of 1867, which is written in Gascon and thus nearly unreadable to me. I perused it rapidly to see if it had any further details about the Mass of Saint-Sécaire, which it didn't, although it did appear to mention other black mass traditions, along with a whole lot of other charming material.

I really wish I could be working with the original. Each example is numbered and signed by the author, and it would be exhilarating in so many ways to handle the same page that Bladé handled when that book was on its way out the door lo these 125 years ago. Ccreitz (talk) 18:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

You will all never guess what just showed up on Google Books... http://books.google.com/books?id=__HpCf6DyaEC&printsec=titlepage#PPA246,M1 . Their OCR is also not great, for the record. This is the same text as I have in my standalone Superstitions (though repackaged into a rather different book). We'll call this problem solved. Ccreitz (talk) 21:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking forward to seeing the formatable version of the text, once it gets typed in. Does it look like Bladé's account is our only source for this? No pictures or other stories from that period? Something that would add to the Wikipedia article? I'm trying to figure out how to "capture" the "Mass of St Secaire" as a phenomena - it looks like we are just relying on Bladé and his informant. I also take back what I said about Frazer's plagiary - he mentions a number of Bladé's works in his bibliography.Jimhoward72 (talk) 04:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

For now, I couldn't think of a better place to put the excerpt than my user page (q.v.). I, or someone, should eventually work a translation into the article, I guess. Jimhoward72, your comment indicates that you have access to a version of The Golden Bough with the scholarly apparatus. Could you please photo/scan and post that too? As you can see, I've left the question of scholarship open in my recent work on the actual article. Ccreitz (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

My mistake again - I posted the French text below, before I noticed that you have all the text plus translation on your user page (like you clearly said, above). Don't you think it would be suitable to post your text here at this article, and also to create the wikitext version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimhoward72 (talk • contribs) 05:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this link will work, but here it is - it was from a search I did on Blade's book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y29Rv2YxKSwC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=%22Quatorze+superstitions%22&source=web&ots=ZQMiQQY9G6&sig=_RM0z3IuP8J8K9ixYC1v_VbzsTA&hl=en

Jimhoward72 (talk) 03:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The footnote to the account in the version included in that Google Books link says that, although belief in the Mass was still widepread in Gascony, "Cazaux seul m'a parlé de la contre-messe" (the late Cazaux being Bladé's informant). So not only are we stuck with Bladé as our only detailed source, but Bladé was in turn stuck with this Cazaux fellow, who was already dead at the time of the publication of the Superstitions. No doubt he shriveled away, the doctors unable to diagnose or treat his mysterious malady. Ccreitz (talk) 22:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christian mythology?

User:Str1977 has methodically gone through articles included in the Category:Christian mythology removing them. This article was one of those removed.Perhaps not in the interests of the non-indoctrinated Wikipedia reader? I have no opinion in this particular case myself. --Wetman 09:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Text

This is the original text, from the "show plain text" option of the Google Books edition. Hopefully it will eventually become the wikitext edition. Needs to be compared/proofread against the original google-books version.

http://books.google.com/books?id=__HpCf6DyaEC&printsec=titlepage#PPA246,M1

LA MESSE DE SAIXT.SÉCAIRE

Il y a des gens qui n'osent pas attaquer hardiment leurs ennemis, et qui n'osent pas non plus les empoisonner, par crainte de la justice. Celui qui tue mérite la mort, et le bourreau lui coupe la tête. Que font alors certains vauriens? Ils s'en vont trouver des sorcières, pour faire donner du mal à leurs ennemis. Autrefois, les sorcières étaient brûlées vives, par ordre des juges. Maintenant, ces gueuses peuvent tout faire, sans que les gens en place s'en mêlent. Par bonheur, plus d'une de ces carognes a été mise au four, sans que la justice en ait jamais rien su, ni fait ouïr des témoins, qui se seraient mal trouvés d'avoir parlé. Il y a aussi d'autres moyens de se garder contre cette vermine, sans qu'on soit en droit de vous châtier. Si vous savez qu'une sorcière veut vous donner du mal, surveillez-la bien. Quand elle passera près de vous, et quand elle étendra le bras, pour faire sa mauvaise œuvre, dites en vous- même : — « Que le Diable te souffle au cul (i). » Aussitôt, la sorcière pâtira cent fois plus que vous n'auriez pari, et vous n'aurez plus rien à craindre d'elle. Pareille chose arrivera, quand vous la verrez venir de loin, si vous dites, toujours en vous-même : — « Je te doute , Je te redoute. Pet sans feuille, Monte en-haut la cheminée (2). » Maintenant, vous êtes averti, et vous savez ce qu'il faut faire. Il y a quelque chose de bien plus rare, mais aussi de bien pire que le mal donné par les sorcières. C'est la Messe de saint Sécaire. L'homme à l'intention de qui on la fait dire sèche peu à peu, sans qu'on sache pourquoi ni comment, et sans que les médecins y voient goutte. ( i) En gascon : Que Ion Diable te bouhe au eu. («) En gascon : Te âauli. Te redouti. Pli sense hoiillo, Mounto cap-sus la chaminèio. Bien peu de curés savent la Messe de saint Sécaire ; et les trois quarts de ceux qui la savent ne la diront jamais, ni pour or, ni pour argent. Il n'y a que les mauvais prêtres, damnés sans rémission, qui se chargent d'un pareil travail. Ces prêtres ne demeurent jamais deux jours de suite dans le même endroit. Ils marchent, toujours la nuit, pour s'en aller, aujourd'hui dans la Montagne ( i), demain dans les Grandes-Landes de Bordeaux ou de Bayonne. La Messe de saint Sécaire ne peut être dite que dans une église où il est défendu de s'assembler, parce qu'elle est à moitié démolie, ou parce qu'il s'y est passé des choses que les chrétiens ne doivent pas faire. De ces églises, les hiboux, les chouettes et les chauves-souris font leur paradis, et les Bohèmes y viennent loger. Sous l'autel, il y a tout plein de crapauds qui chantent. Le mauvais prêtre amène avec lui sa maîtresse, pour lui servir de clerc. Il doit être seul dans l'église, avec cette truie, et avoir fait un bon souper. Sur le premier coup de onze heures, la messe commence par la fin, et continue tout à rebours, pour finir juste à minuit. L'hostie est noire, et à trois pointes. Le mauvais prêtre ne consacre pas de vin. Il boit l'eau d'une fontaine, où on a jeté un enfant mort sans baptême. Le signe de la croix se fait toujours par terre , et avec le pied gauche. Il se passe encore, à la Messe de saint Sécaire, beaucoup d'autres choses que nul ne sait, et qu'un bon chrétien ne pourrait voir, sans devenir aussitôt aveugle pour toujours. Voilà comment certaines gens s'y prennent, pour faire sécher peu à peu leurs ennemis, pour les faire mourir, sans qu'on sache pourquoi ni comment, et sans que les médecins y voient goutte. Vous comprenez de reste que les mauvais prêtres, et les gens qui les paient pour ce travail, auront un grand compte à rendre, le jour du dernier jugement. Aucun curé, ni évêque, pas même l'archevêque d'Auch, n'a le droit de leur pardonner. Ce pouvoir n'appartient qu'au pape de Rome, qui ordonne alors, pour toute la vie, des pénitences plus terribles que le plus profond des enfers. Mais bien peu de ces misérables veulent s'y soumettre, et la plupart meurent damnés sans rémission. H y a pourtant un moyen de se garder contre la Messe de saint Sécaire ; mais je ne sais pas la contre-messe qu'il faut dire. Vous pouvez croire, Monsieur Bladé, que si on me l'avait apprise, je vous l'enseignerais de bon cœur. Votre pauvre père ( Dieu lui pardonne !) était un brave homme, qui m'a fait service plus d'une fois. Tâchez de le va- loir. J'ai ouï dire que vous parliez le français aussi bien que les avocats d'Auch, et même d'Agen. Pourtant, vous n'êtes pas un francimant (i), et 3 n'y a pas de métayer qui sache le patois mieux que vous. Aujourd'hui, force bourgeois de Lec- toure, qui ont vingt-quatre heures de loisir par jour, en passent plus de la moitié à lire les nouvelles, et à se disputer, pour savoir qui on nommera aux élections. Ils font semblant de ne pas croire aux sorciers et aux loups -garous. Mais j'en connais qui, la nuit, tremblent de peur dans leur lit, quand ils ont soufflé leur chandelle. Tout cela, Monsieur Bladé, est pour vous dire que si je savais la contre-messe de saint Sécaire, je vous la réciterais de bon cœur, pour la mettre par écrit, parce que je vous crois incapable d'en faire un mauvais usage. Marquez pourtant que cette contre-messe a le pouvoir de faire sécher peu à peu le mauvais prêtre, et les gens qui l'ont payé. Ils meurent, sans qu'on sache pourquoi ni comment, et sans que les médecins y voient goutte (2). ( 1) Se dit d'un homme qui affecte la langage et lei manières des Français du Nord. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimhoward72 (talk • contribs) 05:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)