Talk:The Man in the High Castle

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The Man in the High Castle was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: April 27, 2007

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there is an error in the following paragraph in the article "The next president, Rexford Tugwell (who is completely fictional)..."

rexford tugwell is mentioned in wikipedias's article on fdr, as follows "After the 1934 Congressional elections, which gave the Democrats large majorities in both houses, there was a fresh surge of New Deal legislation, driven by the "brains trust" of young economists and social planners gathered in the White House, including Raymond Moley, Rexford Tugwell and Adolf Berle of Columbia University, attorney Basil O'Connor, economist Bernard Baruch and Felix Frankfurter of Harvard Law School. Eleanor Roosevelt, Labor Secretary Frances Perkins (the first female Cabinet Secretary) and Agriculture Secretary Henry A. Wallace were also important influences."

so, it does not seem that he was fictional (at least, not completely :)

I've changed it. There is a Rexford Guy Tugwell page (although it consists of nothing but a copiright violation warning currently) so I've linked to it. --Shimbo 16:55, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've also amended the recently added paragraph about The Grasshopper Lies Heavy being the fictional world counterpart of "The Man in the High Castle". Although this was a valuable addition I don't think it was entirely correct, in that The Grasshopper Lies Heavy does not describe our reality. The plot of The Grasshopper Lies Heavy as described in the article certainly does not coincide with real world history. Hence I don't think the assertation that "our" real world is fiction to the inhabitants of the world of "The Man in the High Castle" is questionable and also the suggestion that Abendson is the fictional counterpart of the real Philip K Dick. I've also moved the paragrah to the themes section where I think it fits better and added my take of the relationship between the books and what this implies about the real and fictional worlds. Please let me know if you don't agree. --Shimbo 17:33, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Very stupid plot indeed 2 British war crime trials 3 Map? 4 Mr. Baynes 5 Nuclear weapons 6 Colt .44 7 GA Fail 8 Present map, Good article possibility 9 Tagomi 10 Division of North America 11 Too Much Emphasis on the Plot

[edit] Very stupid plot indeed

Could they explain how the USSR fell to Nazi Germany? Unless there were some huge blunders or something fantastic occured, it would be an impossibility. How was this done in the book? And no one say the U.S. didn't send aid to the USSR. For one, the U.S. sent trucks and other aid to Nazi Germany prior to war in our timeline (which were later turned into mobile deaths vans) so the two powers would be on par as a result and second the USSR started to make ground once they REFUSED aid and started using their own supplies in our timeline. I have to know the reason in the book.

-G

In our own world, the USSR was crippled during the initial stages of Operation Barbarossa due to Stalin's paranoia. Like Saddam Hussein in Iraq, he'd executed significant numbers of senior military personnel lest they threaten his dominance over the Soviet Union. As time went on, the Nazis overreached. Added to that, their British Army didn't have strategic successes in Northern Africa, therefore it was possible to coordinate Nazi Middle Eastern strategy and launch a second front against the Soviet Union in the Caucasus. With this added burden, and the lack of US contribution to the total Allied war effort in their world, Operation Barbarossa succeeded.

User Calibanu 10 February 2007 12.04

That second front originating in Africa and extending up into the Middle East and into the USSR is an interesting and probably scenario. Alright, it’s plausible, but to defeat the USSR in ‘41? No; but other than that, it’s fine.

-G

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.117.157.7 (talk) 06:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Maybe someone who's actually read the book should work on it?

yep this is a stupid story indeed, this dick worth his name. maybe he didn't noticed japan and germany population are peanuts compared to the one of the ussr and us. plus there is no reason for germany alone to spend billions in a spatial race, because japan would not get such technology. actually the ussr and the us developed their own technologies using captured german V2. with germany winning the war, there is no reason for japan to get the V2 technology and that's over. no sputnik, no sputnik shock, no nasa, no laika, no gagarin, no race. no stupid book with an absurd cover bearing the german flag on the right side and the japanese on the left one. those who created the world map put europe in the middle, hence germany had to be on the left and japan on the right. there is an old stuff named time zone, with japan as the country of the rising sun with something like GMT+8 while germany is GMT+1. Cliché Online 12:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Is population size an issue? Maybe, but certainly not the only one. Japan had beaten Russia in the real world (1905) and tiny Belgium ran a vast African Empire compared to its size. Look at the size and area of the British Empire. India alone had and has a far bigger popluation than Britain.

If you look at the map, Japan effectively rules eastern parts of Russia, implying perhaps an attack by them on Russia in the alternate history, in addition to that of the Germans. In terms of rocketry, you could compare the real world situation vis a vis nuclear weapons and the efficacy of espionage. Then relate that to the espionage engaged in in the book. Dick is also suggesting that the "space race" in the book is actually a result of the lunacy of the Nazis. Whether the Japanese got the technology or not wouldn't matter in that scenario. Bear in mind also, the reference to them being imitators par excellence.

194.46.232.49 20:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Surely most of "cliche online"'s comment's should be removed due to the severe lack of following the NPOV rule? I think it ruins a very valid argument on his/her part by starting the comment by making an immature reference to the author's name. I think it should be edited, but as i'm new to this im not sure how exactly we go about editing other's comments. Dark Wounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dark wounds (talk • contribs) 15:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In PKD's book the war ends in 1948 and although the Soviets are subjugated, guerrilla actions still go on beyond the Urals. In real life Stalin had actually reassured the Western powers that they would fight on beyond the Urals if needs be. In the book Cairo falls to Germans and better Italian force than in real life. This would have been a big disaster for Allies if it had actually happened.. but fortunately they were stopped 60 miles from the city. Also.. the book mentions a linkup with the Japanese - something that must have been on the minds of both Japan and Third Reich's leaderships (see also the real-life meeting of Indian radical Subhas Chandra Bose's meeting with Hitler who commented that at that time he was too far away from India to assist rebellion against the British.) Its worth mentioning here that Japan did actually invade India but was stopped by the tough Battle of Imphal. With regards to crossing the Atlantic - Apparently Hitler + staff had an idea for invading US via the St Lawrence river. Also.. the use of Canary Islands as a bomber base etc etc. Cable tv seems to love the idea of rocket-powered oneway planes nuking New York. I seem to remember that Japan actually drew up plans for an invasion of the West coast.. remember that in PKDs book both Axis powers occupy USA so its not too far fetched to think that they might have co-ordinated an invasion. In real life the race for nuclear weapons of course also played a big part in allies certain triumph over Axis. See this BBC article on Hitler's alledged nuke test too -[1]. Aside from this nuke article.. i've read that during WWII the Japanese were ahead of the Nazis in developing the potential for nuclear weaponry (i.e research/dev). Near the end of the war in Europe a Nazi sub tried to deliver German nuclear knowledge to the Japanese. I think it was intercepted. Maybe the plot of PKD'S book is not so stupid fanciful after all. However... again in our world the German strategy was crippled by Hitler's domination. Rommel was a bit exasperated over the relative ignorance of potential raw materials and resources in Middle East and Africa. Hitler was obsessed with 'living space' for germans/german empire, 'Jewish conspiracy' and communism (as conqueror for the bourgeoisie), and the conquest of Russian oilfields. At Pearl Harbour the Japanese failed to give a knockout blow to the Americans as they missed the aircraft carriers which the yanks later relied upon. The Japanese leadership also had mixed-up priorities in the war.. something the Allies avoided due to more internal debate and 'democracy'/accountability/meritocracy' although the internal arguments and problems with planning on the allied side - RAF internal problems, combined arms learning curve and ill-thought out/managed operations such as Operation Market Garden and the Greece expedition all lengthed the war.. at least in Europe.. by perhaps a year. --maxrspct ping me 21:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Look, at the end of the day its a good science fiction romp through alternate realities, what PKD did best. Getting all hot and bothered about the details of it kind of takes away from it no? Terrasidius (talk) 21:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Not really, it's called having an enquiring mind. --maxrspct ping me 08:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] British war crime trials

Without US support against Germany, surely Britain would have collapsed before it was able to undertake carpet bombing? The large scale destruction of German cities (eg Dresden) led by Bomber Harris did not occur until much later in the (real) war. --212.113.23.124 14:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

And what exactly was the "(real) war"? Terrasidius (talk) 21:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Map?

A map for this article would be great, see this example --Astrokey44 13:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Done.--SyL64 04:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It does refer to the area of the Rocky Mountain States as the USA though.194.46.232.49 20:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree there should be a map on the page, would be cool. Terrasidius (talk) 21:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mr. Baynes

"Mr. Baynes" in the story actually seems to be a tribute to Cary F. Baynes, the translator of the "I Ching" into English in collaboration with Hellmut Wilhelm, Bollingen Series, Princeton University Press.--zumanon 14:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nuclear weapons

"Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire both possess nuclear weapons and are mired in their own Cold War."

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. The Germans have nuclear weapons, but the Japanese do not; hence their impotence in the face of Operation Dandelion. Certainly the Japanese had no nuclear weapons program in our world prior to and during World War II. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BukkWylde (talk • contribs) 08:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

Japanese atomic program -- 209.195.72.181 (talk) 18:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the book, Operation Dandelion was intended as a 'surprise' nuclear attack on Japan's "Home Islands." For the surprise to be signficant in that context, one can infer that both sides have nuclear weapons and are constrained from using them due to the existence of something analogous to the doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction during our own Cold War. For that not to be the case would imply that Nazi Germany had a strategic advantage in these matters, which it probably would have been unable to resist exploiting.

User Calibanu 10 February 2006 11.57

[edit] Colt .44

...not Colt 45. In chapter 4, Mr. Childan calls it an "exceptional Colt .44 of 1860." The gun Mr. Tagami uses in chapter 12, is also described as a "U.S. 1860 Civil War Colt .44." He laboriously loads the weapon because it is a black powder gun.

The Colt 45 wasn't manufactured until 1873 and did not use black powder and ball ammunition.

The "Colt revolver of the Frontier period" that Frank was making in chapter 4 may have been a Colt 45. However, Frank's unfinished gun was not mentioned again in the book.

--TheLimbicOne(talk) 09:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Fail

I have to fail this GA nomination, for several major reasons:

• The article is completely unreferenced.
• Large portions of the article are written from an "in-universe" perspective (please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)).
• Way too little mention of the book's real-world impact - critical reception, sales figures, cultural influence, etc.
• Article has a "Trivia" section, which is discouraged.

Essentially the article needs a complete rewrite with the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) used as a guide. Sorry. - Merzbow 06:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If I may, I would like to add my own two cents here as it were:

• Your references point is valid - the article needs referencing quite a lot as soon as possible to improve its odds as a good article.

• The "real-world" perspective; what of it? We live in the real world; with The Man In The High Castle/The Grasshopper Lies Heavy alternate realities being merely periphery. Our perceptions dictate that a plot summary must begin at the point of divergence and go on to from there; the plot summary is sound; though the map needs to be less imposing upon it.

• Your third point - some critics consider this book PKD's finest; and certainly his best prior to his starting use of Amphetamines and LSD which turned him a nad nutty ^[clarify] hence a slew of later, more disturbing books. We need a reception page; one thing we do know is that it won the Hugo Award in 1962 and likely influenced Robert Harris's book Fatherland. We could incorporate some of PKD's "Influence" section from his article. Sales figures wise...these will be hard to garner, a compilation inclusive of this work is relatively high on Amazon.com's list at 743. Individually the book is at 8,800 or so. As for sales figures from 1962 to now...we will have trouble finding them. Are they really all that relevant? The book remains in print and is a cult classic that is accessible to any. I know for a fact it has been translated into Russian Cyrillic (with an Axis soldier on the cover, and PKD's French and German translations are renowned hence a heavy following here in Europe.)

• Indeed some of the trivia entries are superfluous - PKD's references can be read prior to the novel's start. As for the poem...again a bit of a superfluous chatter here; could be removed. The other points such as the name dedication to Cary F. Baynes (the very literate translator of the I Ching), are good ones. So shortened yes, removed entirely, no! The fact weed is legal in the PSA of the book is significant as a trivia piece. -- D-Katana 09:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Present map, Good article possibility

Hello all!

I have read this book a few times and must praise it as an alternate history piece of fiction together with its featuring the I-Ching which I consult and read on occasion. Now, about this new map - if I may quote the book herein... A map was uploaded to the Man In The High Castle article very recently; and an accurate one too... though I think Japan had more of a presence in South America myself "wooden houses on stilts" in the Amazon etc.) construction and all that - it is implied Germany/Japan were competing down there for control of it's peoples, that the Nazis want to drive back the Japanese a little.

Another point is that the Mediterranean Sea is not portrayed as drained for farmland quite yet. Lastly I'd say the area East of the Caspian Sea past/around a probably ruined Omsk is less Nazi "controlled/Greater German Reich" and more the Slavic peoples fleeing grounds; again to quote PKD's work "(The Axis powers...)drove them back two thousand year's worth; back to hunting with bow and arrow...". With present Eastern Europe firmly Lebenstraum (living space) in the book, and the Med not shaded a light/translucant green to indicate farmland the map is flawed; but very good for a first draft nevertheless. Advise the text in the corner be made somewhat larger too. If anyone has anymore criticisms then do reply to this topic.

But other than this the map is some fine work - Perhaps Japan did gain some of Eastern Russia such as Vladivostok but this we cannot know of. With the map perfected and meeting my above critique we should have this article at Good status in no time when somebody references it extensively, together with a few descriptive edits - I may be able to do the latter when time permits after a lengthy hiatus from Wikipedia. Perhaps the original pixel size of this map should be lowered so the map dominates the page less too? -- D-Katana 08:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I forgot to mention that I haven't read the book myself. I just took my knowledge from this article to make a map (not to mention some skill in geopolitics and a bit of logic) so I was not aware of those details you just mentioned. If anyone knows how to make, or at least edit maps, you are more than welcome to fix mine. --SyL64 20:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a free program for Windows which you may find useful for this purpose - including the renaming of the "United States of America" to the actual name of "Rocky Mountain States.". It is called paint.net - if you wish I could do the business of perfecting this already finely done map as per the facts in this alternate reality. Paint.net will easily enlarge your small text; thus viewers of this article will doubtless be able to work out what is what regards. -- D-Katana 14:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, a second note - the article describes it as a bitmap editor; however a revised map could easily be uploaded - as Paint.net can save files in the JPEG and PNG formats which are more space efficient. For a diagram such as yours, editing it (ie lining or shading the former Med. sea in a light green denoting farmland; without betraying the maps political nature would prove a good plan. Also, the remaining Slavic peoples do likely hunt in a primitive manner at Omsk and beyond; though Dick is uncertain as to how far they were "drove back" - certainly past the Black Sea, to be sure.

Also I highly recommend you read this book Syl (it is Sylvia, correct?) as it is one amazing read. Glad to be of assistance. - D-Katana 14:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

...

I'm a male. And map updated, according to your information... for the most part, that is. --SyL64 00:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Forgive assertion. The map, save the text size which is tad small, is brilliant (now the introduction of more areas will likely encourage persons browsing this article to look at it full size. Now all that remains is for you to read this remarkable book! :) -- D-Katana 11:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The map still seems to need updating. The novel revolves around Hawthorne Abendsen's book .. and he is holed up in the Rocky Mountain States buffer zone which is not indicated on the map. Also, the New York area is drawn as separate from the rest of the nazi USA zone. I don't remember this being indicated as such in the book.. only a reference to Rommel's governership etc. Select Carribean states are also assigned to the Third Reich. This wasn't in the book either. Was Australia not part of the Japanese Empire proper? Scary map. -- maxrspct ping me 22:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

OK. I took out the map as it is basically inaccurate and embellished. - assigns lands not mentioned in the book and does not show the 'Rocky Mountain States' (which are undetailed in the book.. i'e which individual states). If anyone wants to redraw the map with the RMS and without making anything up or OTT embellishments, please link it here on the talkpage first. Thanks. -- maxrspct ping me 13:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tagomi

Tagomi doesn't find solace in the killing of the SD agents. It disturbs him greatly and eventually leads him back to Childan to try and trade back the gun. The whole episode around that involves him in the possbile break with his current reality. Again, interleaving with the themes of what is real/genuine/authentic. Is his gun authentic? It fires like a real gun. He tries to take it back but the seller won't take it because unbeknown to Tagomi, Childan suspects it is a replica. Paradoxically, Childan tries, successfully, to sell genuine jewellery made by (unbeknowns to both of them) the maker of the possibly fake gun. Paradoxically, again, Tagomi initially eschews the jewellery because of a lack of "historicity" even though it is actually more "real" than all of the other artifacts in the shop may be being an honest product of the forger. Although, of course, while yet initally failing to fulfil its purpose i.e inherent wu. That is, the non-functioning real counterposed to the functioning fake.

194.46.232.49 20:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Woah!

[edit] Division of North America

The southern states were split off by the Nazis? Nevada as U.S capitol? I don't remember these being in the book. Can someone clarify? -- maxrspct ping me 10:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

This paragraph section: "The Southern United States was revived as a quasi-independent state (as a Nazi puppet state like Vichy France). The Rocky Mountain States and much of the Midwest remained autonomous with Nevada becoming the US capital, being considered unimportant by either of the victors, as well as a useful buffer. At the end of the war, the Allied leaders and generals were tried for war crimes (e.g. the carpet bombing of German cities) in a parallel of the Nuremberg Trials." I don't see any of this in the book. Care to remind me? I will delete the sentences within a week if noone replies. -- maxrspct ping me 07:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too Much Emphasis on the Plot

I read this recently and was struck by how accurately it depicts California today. I wonder if it was ever intended to be an "alternate" version of reality or actually a comment on America hidden behind the sci-fi premise. This would explain the end which is intentionally left unclear as to which reality is correct. Of course, today there are more foreign people in California and the Governor is not only foreign but the son of Nazis. Yet, there were signs things were headed in that direction at the time Dick wrote. He was interested in science like the space program, which was dominated by foreign people (even ex-Nazis). He had psychological problems and many doctors in this area were foreign. Mental institutions at the time tended to cause more mental strain then help and he likely knew about that. His books eventually became successful films but until late in his career he was shut out of Hollywood. Most Hollywood sci-fi was badly written, mostly cribbed, and the industry was controlled by foreigners. The businessman depicted in the book is easily recognizible as a Hollywood type mogul. The parts about Americans being shut out and not even being able to go to nicer sections of the city isn't far from reality today, and probably wasn't back then either. So Dick is really one of the American artists in the book, whose work is having an impact but is not repected, nor were probably his friends. He could see that things could go either way and maybe he would be successful or maybe not. All of these issues are more important than various plot points. It seems to me the obsession with the plot misses the point. Frankpalardy (talk) 23:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)