Talk:The Lost Tomb of Jesus

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A lot of this article is verbatim from this Citizendium article, which is licensed as GFDL so no copyright infringement occurs (note you need to be registered to read that article) Glen 12:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Clarification

Someone needs to specify what exactly was in the ossuaries. Some people say fragments, others imply skeletons. Also is the claim that several generations might use the same ossuary valid? Jarwulf 21:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Recanting of claims: chief scholars change their opinions

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152766396&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Someone needs to add this under the Criticism section. Helltopay27 01:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reference 12

reference 12 is not there. has it disappeared? i wanted to investigate this fbi photograph.


[edit] Moved from "Lost Tomb of Jesus" to "The Lost Tomb of Jesus"

Hi, I moved the article to "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name). The definite article here is a part of the title of the work (some other examples are The Old Man and the Sea, The Three Musketeers). Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 03:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Feuerverger's alleged "backtracking"

There is currently a section of the article that reads:

"Feuerverger claimed on camera that there is only a 1/600 probability that the Talpiot tomb is not Jesus', but he has already backtracked from his claim, explaining: "I now believe that I should not assert any conclusions connecting this tomb with any hypothetical one of the NT family."

I have read the letter cited and the above sentence is misleading. It gives the impression that Feuerverger has backtracked on his entire assessment, which is not the case. Feuerverger goes on to state in his letter:

"The interpretation of the computation should be that it is estimating the probability of there having been another family at the time, living in Jerusalem, whose tomb would be at least as `surprising', under certain specified assumptions."

So, what he is saying is that it is the historian's job, not the statisticians place to say "this is the odds it's Jesus of the bible's tomb" BUT, that the statistician can say "these are the odds of some OTHER family matching that makeup existing at that time". Essentially, he's talking about phrasing and does not backtrack on his calculations of the substance of the odds. The one sentence originally sited from his letter gives the opposite impression, and is very POV.

To further provide evidence that the above is POV and innacurate, here is a quote from Feuerverger, from an article from scientific american:

"I did permit the number one in 600 to be used in the film—I'm prepared to stand behind that but on the understanding that these numbers were calculated based on assumptions that I was asked to use," says Feuerverger. "These assumptions don't seem unreasonable to me, but I have to remember that I'm not a biblical scholar." (bold mine)

In another point in the letter, he states that there are many assumptions from other fields on which his calculations are based, and it is the historian's job to ensure the validity those. If they are correct assumptions, then his calculations should be correct.

That portion of the article should therefore be changed to:

"Feuerverger claimed on camera that there is only a 1/600 probability that the Talpiot tomb is not Jesus'. In a subsequent letter to the statistical community, he clarified that rather than assert conclusions connecting the tomb with the NT family, he now believes "A role of statistics here is just to attempt to assess the odds of an equally (or more) `surprising' cluster of names arising purely by chance..." He also noted that his calculations are based on several assumptions which historians must decide the validity of and which could impact how statistically meaningful the figure is. --Daniel 15:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Daniel, I think you may be missing part of the import of Feuerverger's statement. Yes, he is disclaiming personal responsibility for validation of the input data which were given to him; he has done this in every version of the "Office Hours" document. But in later versions there is something new: a sentence in which he disclaims "any conclusions connecting this tomb with any hypothetical one of the NT family" has been included, IN ADDITION TO the sentences in which he already disclaimed responsibility for the input data.
This addition seems to be intended as a repudiation of the last step in the calculation, the step which leapt from "1 in 600 that these names would occur randomly" to "600 to 1 in favor of this being the JESUS FAMILY TOMB." This last step is not just a matter of interpretation, which should be left to "biblical historical scholars;" instead this last step is a well-known math error, called the Conditional Probability Fallacy. You can learn about it here: Conditional probability#The conditional probability fallacy.
The Scientific American interview was published BEFORE Feuerverger added the "I now believe that I should not assert any conclusions..." sentence to the Office Hours document, so I don't think you can use the sentence in SciAm to "correct" an interpretation of the sentence in Office Hours. -- Evil-mer0dach 16:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Except that he says at the end of his letter:

"P.S. The website of Scientific American carries the results of an interview with me which seems to be sufficiently accurate to be considered fair."

Furthermore, that is not even the totality of what I wrote. His letter ALONE indicates that he is fully standing behind his calculations, assuming the assumptions it is based on are correct. In the letter (NOT the sci am article) he says:

"The interpretation of the computation should be that it is estimating the probability of there having been another family at the time, living in Jerusalem, whose tomb would be at least as `surprising', under certain specified assumptions."

So, according to him STILL - the probability of there having been another family at the time, living in Jerusalem, whose tomb would be at least as 'surprising', under certain specified assumptions, is 1 in 600.

Nothing in his letter backtracked on that calculation - he merely said that THIS is how he should phrase it, and leave it up to historians to say that this is the Jesus tomb. At least as far as that letter seems to indicate. --Daniel 20:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That's a different statement of probability; it isn't just a different way to phrase the same statement. Conflating them is the well-known fallacy to which I was referring. "1/600 probability of X, given Y" does not have the same meaning as "1/600 probability of Y, given X." -- Evil-mer0dach 17:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

"Francois Bovon, professor of the history of religion at Harvard University, told Discovery News, "Mariamene, or Mariamne, probably was the actual name given to Mary Magdalene"" where's controversy in this?? 83.4.169.124 13:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


Because he didn't say it? -- see his letter in the article. Dougweller 17:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

All I can say has already been said, "[Luke 23:39-43]."

According to the documentary website: scholars are in agreement on her real name, Mariamne as apposed to "Mary from Magdalene. Also verified by http://www.beliefnet.com/story/135/story_13503_1.html after quick google search. Danski14 02:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

-The Catholic Church must have released some sort of statement about this "documentary", could someone find it if it exists? KeineLust90 20:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe those can't be added to the article, cause of N:POV. -Dark Dragon Flame 20:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bias sources

Religious sources are considered non-NPOV in this instance and cannot be used per wikipedia policy:

"Extremist sources
Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution."

AlexOvShaolin 16:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is a archeological discovery that has strong potential religious repercussions. Not citing any religious sources would be very silly. The Wikipedia policy talks about "extremist sources", not "any religous sources"...!!! "Benedict"--66.131.26.228 05:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course avowed atheistic,secular, or religiously competitive opinions regarding a belief system opposing their own could never be as "extremist" as the opinions of avowed theistic or specifically religious opinions, could they? This is an example of the unavoidable failure of Wikipedia, or any other similar attempt, hypothetical or real, to provide an unbiased overview of matters strictly outside of provable historical account (which is also suspect considering that every group of individuals who harbor different worldviews also tend to argue vehemently for different "authenticatable" evidence of historical fact) or outside of methodologically and logically strict and sound controlled demonstrations of scientific and mathematical observation.

Science and mathematics are wonderful, I stress wonderful, tools of epistemological endeavor, but so much of reality lies beyond their demonstrative capability. Even within science's more theoretical areas of specialty this is the case, although, in time, it is assumed what is strictly or greatly speculative will become verifiable or disproved with increased quality of calibration to instruments and increased analytical technologies. Still certain very important, dominantly important, areas of reality will never fall within the scope of math or science--chiefly the ontology of God and morality. That such things fall beyond the verifiable abilities of science, mathematics, or dedcutive logic do not make them fantasy or fallacy. (Modern civilization should be careful in its denouncing of God and religion not to simply prop a new "religion" up in its place which is less capable of grasping the truth of questions of morality and God's nature than the previous systems which attempted to do so.) You would not use mythology to attempt to further the disciplines of science and it is equal folly to attempt to use science to further the understanding of morality and total, and especially moral, nature of God.

It is silly to think that any article directly or indirectly involving a religion, the nature of God, or morality could ever be written NPOV. Whatever are the ideologies of the explicit or implicit controlling authority(ies) of the article or, in this case, both the article and the website will be the ideological norms which are not assumed or much greatly less assumed to be extremist than competing ideologies. Because of this, all articles of the above nature are likely to be colored if not outright shaped by the prevailing bias of the community and proprietors of Wikipedia. The comment of the individual above is an excellent example of this, though the rule he/she cites is not neccessarily so (though its application will always be, no matter the direction). Whose opinion is objectively authoritative that quoting from the Bible is an example of religious extremism or that the Bible is religiously extreme, or even that, if exteme, it would therefore be incorrect, and how could such assertions ever be anything but bias or faith based? You may not believe in Chronos but you can never prove that Chronos does not believe in you! And so on with any view of God or any view of moral reality.

For the record, were I to start up a website that intended to be an enclycopedic compendium of knowledge that was Christian in its foundation and authoritative control, it too would be completely incapable of presenting articles such as this in a NPOV manner, precisely because the very natures of articles such as this one touch upon issues that are, by definition, issues of faith. In this imagined website, it would be very easy to surmise that an individual would attempt to cite secular progressive opinions upon this very subject, for purposes of balancing the POV nature of the article or otherwise, and have those removed citing the above mentioned rule about extreme ontological or axiological viewpoints being injudicious for NPOV purposes, while leaving numerous citings of scripture in the article intact. And, of course, that website would be just as guilty of bias as this one happens to be.

I believe that Christianity is the true, essential explanation of the nature of God, the metaphyscial, and more specifically, moral state of Man, and the hope we can have to be raised from our fallen state and eternally perfected and reunited with God through the Salvific sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, for our sins. I also believe that pure morality is strictly objective in nature, although our applicative understanding of morality is hardly more than subjective due to the limits of our nature, making it almost, if not outright, impossible to be perfectly moral while we live and making it absolutly necessary, should we want to properly progress in our morality and refine our understanding of what it means to moral, to devoutly seek to understand and serve God. I know many forceful, logically inductive based arguments that support this, but, were someone to sucessfully--fundamentally, not rhetorically--disprove my arguments, my assumption would be that my premises were faulty, not my conclusions. I would assume that there is a wiser explanation than my own to support my belief and thus still stand by my belief, with hopes that I might formulate or come upon that wiser defense, but with no consideration that my belief is dependent upon the recognition of that new defense. In matters of faith, in order to render that faith invalid you must disprove the conclusion, not the premises. And so, with articles such as this one, any citable source, were it to reflect my views, your views, their contrapositives, or any other views, is unavoidably POV. It is almost willfully ignorant to pretend otherwise.

Thanks for a summary of the attitude that should not lie behind any wiki article. The Talpiot tomb page is a more neutral example of how this subject should be treated. This page seems to merely a place where Christians who know from faith, by means not accessible to others, that this cannot be the tomb of Jesus can repeat their faith based reasons. Stick to the facts - see the Talpiot tomb page for a reasoned discussion of why it doubtful that this is the tomb of Jesus. Reasoned discussion includes the idea that possibly it might be, even if it is a very long shot. It is a disgrace that this page uses so much blog material as "factual". E4mmacro 04:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] merge?

It would seem to make sense to merge as much as possible with the Talpiot Tomb article. Anything about the archaeological find itself (I'm looking at the "Ossuary Inscriptions" and most of the "Controversy" sections) should be merged. And then this page reflects only on the claims in the book itself apart from the objective archaeological evidence. David Bergan 18:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think for now the articles should be separate. After the "documentary" is shown and some of the hoopla dies down, it might be more feasible to merge. Ward3001 00:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Wikipedia failing this one

Usually when high profile stories like this emerge wikipedia is faily comprehensive and well sourced, but here we have three slim, poor and slanted articles, on about the Talpiot Tomb itself, one about the Documentary and another about the Book about the documentary. I'm going to try and gather more sources and reformat the article, hope we can get help. Pablosecca 19:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christians wrote this article

This article sounds like its only objective is to refute the claims of the documentary. The Controversy section couldn't be more biased. Moonwalkerwiz 04:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

DNA analysis lmao, DNA comparison only works if you have something to compare the bones to. Last I checked, no one had a Jesus hair follicle in their bathroom hair brush. Biased my ASSMibo123 08:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, since Christians are against this then why did they start this article? Why do they keep taking out all the new discoveries? And why are they so much against the link between Paleo Hebrew and the Tomb? Since Paleo Hebrew and Caanite culture is directly related to the bible and the symbol on the tomb is found in Caanite art and Paleo Hebrew they are refusing to allow this to be added.::
Well, it is "Controversy." Did you expect the Controversy section to be one of agreement? And not all of the critics are Christians. Most seem to be experts and scholars on Israeli antiquities. Carlo 16:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter who wrote this article, it needs to be balanced out better as well as sections merged with the Talpiot Tomb article.אמר Steve Caruso (desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 17:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
At present the state of the discussion in the media seems to be document-makers versus archeologists. The document-makers are the only people who have any specific idea what the film says, and the archeologists are the only people trained in the field. This is quite well represented. --Kizor 02:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, even if it's in the Controversy section, there should be something about relevant people who support the documentary's claims. Maybe it's better to change this section to "Criticism" to encompass views from both sides. Yeah, and by the way, user Mibo123 sounds like a culture-deprived barbarian. Moonwalkerwiz 02:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Relevant people who support the documentary's claims? I'm not aware of any reputable archaeologists or historians, whether religiously affiliated or not, who support the documentary's claims. That doesn't mean none exist, but if they do they're not terribly academically prominent. NPOV doesn't mean giving equal air time to every view point, it means not favoring one view because of illegitimate bias. It's not illegitimate to give greater weight to the more widely supported archaeological and historical arguments pertaining to a documentary that makes archaeological and historical claims - and in this case MUCH greater weight because the academic support for the view provided by this documentary just really isn't there. It wasn't there 25 years ago when they found the tomb, it wasn't there 10 years ago when it was in the news again, and it isn't there now.
Should anti-evolutionists be given equal weight in the article on evolution? Or, perhaps more accurately, flat-earthers in geology articles? Orpheus42 20:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
If you ask me it doesn't really sounds biased, all statments aganist are of archeologists not the pope, but the point of view of those that support it should also be included for the sake of a neutral POV. -Dark Dragon Flame 02:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
There arent very many comments in support of the documentary's claims. I propose that there be a reorganization of the contents, perhaps 1) the facts of the case 2) opinions in support 2) opinions skeptical or against. Pablosecca 21:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
That's because there aren't many comments in support of the documentary's claims from the academic community. Should we pretend that a claim that has received nearly universal panning actually has two equal sides? There is obviously a reason why they had a news conference instead of a peer review. Carlo 16:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Sure there can be a support section. The controversy section suggests that there is dispute over the inscriptions but most epigraphers don't dispute what the inscriptions read. As the filmmaker suggests, it comes down to statistics, what are the chances that so many people linked to Jesus in the Bible could be found in 1 tomb? According to statiticians, the probability is low. So if you really wanted to, you could have a "support" section quoting, for instance, staticians, historians, etc. The support/criticism ratio may not be 50-50, it rarely is, but the support is there. Just because something is not well supported doesn't mean it's not without merit. If these people had submitted this documentary to a peer review it probably wouldn't have been released; this documentary was, after all, done by a filmmaker not one of their own and it challenges long established beliefs which don't always find favor among the established academic community. For example, Dr. Nicholas J. Gonzalez is stil being called a quack by most in the medical community because of his unorthodox methods and theories but the fact is he has helped people.
The article already mentions the statistical argument, which is a pretty poor argument. (It isn't "people" linked to Jesus - it's NAMES. And the names are all common, and they aren't actually the names you would expect to find in such a tomb. The odds are against finding ANY single combination of names. The odds are WAY against any single American tombstone saying "Richard" and "Patricia," too. That doesn't mean that if you find one, it must be Dick and Pat Nixon.) Is there a single serious scholar or archaeologist who has come out in support of this? Why wasn't it subjected to peer review? Carlo 14:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Be that as it may, it's not for you to judge if the argument is "pretty poor" or not. If it's there then leave it there and let other people judge it. Don't take your convictions here in the discussion page, because it's not going to improve the article in any way. Moonwalkerwiz 04:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

Just a suggestion to keep the criticisms of the documentary (and there are quite a few of them) specific and to the point, in the sense that they regard the trio of claims made by the documentary -- rather than the sort of ad hominem comments we saw before such as "the documentarians are illiterate in this topic", etc, etc. Specificity is all, and will avoid this article devolving into appeals to authority. Pablosecca 06:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Pablo, that was way too big of a slash. You removed more than half of the criticisms section! :-) If anything it should have been reorganized or condensed. I'm going to restore the text from your edit. אמר Steve Caruso (desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 16:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There, I've broken it down into three subsections and have removed some of the rather sensationalist quotes, focusing upon the quantitative and empirical objections with a small section about the criticism of the publicity at the bottom. אמר Steve Caruso (desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 16:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed one or two ad hominem quotes ("James Cameron is incompetent") and left everything else -- I condensed some others that said the same thing (especially the issue about the probability and statistical study). Pablosecca 23:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Haven't there been a lot of ad hominem ad hostile attacks of the film makers and the documentary by some well respected authorities. On Larry King, for example, there were some scholars/experts who had not seen the documentary being very hostile to the claims made by it rather than countering the claims with counter-evidence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.19.33 (talk) 13:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Image

The more photographs of the Talpiot Tomb I see in other sources, the more convinced I am that the photograph tagged "An image of the Talpiot Tomb" in this article is not in fact the tomb in question. I think it might be a photograph of a different building. Take a look at this newspaper article. Does anyone else see what I mean? Ecto 23:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I have been asking the same thing myself is there a trusty source that confirms it is? - Dark Dragon Flame (talk • contribs) 23:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
I flipped through the book itself and found a reproduction of the photograph in there. From the description of the image, the photograph is of the tomb's antechamber as it was first exposed by the construction crew in 1980. This part of the tomb must have been covered up again, so it looks very different these days. Well, that explains that. Ecto 23:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dating the remains

I have not seen the documentary so I don't know, but have they radiocarbon dated the remains to confirm their age? Surely all these claims made could be ruled out if the age of the finds did not correspond to the 1st century or there abouts?86.4.59.203 00:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Pharisee.

The type of burial that used this type of ossuary, I believe, was used for a short enough period in history that the margin of error for radiocarbon data might be too great to date the boxes so precisely. Furthermore, from what I've seen, the inscriptions on the box are consistent with 1st-century lettering.
So it's quite plausible they're from the right time period. It's just a bit like if 2000 years from now someone found graves marked only "John", "Paul", "George", and "Richard" grouped together and decided they must be the Beatles. That's the best analogy I can think of. Orpheus42 20:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
As a physicist I would add that specifically for biblical matters, things like radiocarbon dating should not be used due to the dispute from religious scientist about the accuracy of these methods. I believe that religious scientist claim the old Earth model, dated by radiometric methods, is limited (hence flawed) by the assumptions made in the method. Hence, the young Earth model can still be supported. For this reason, the dating based on the use of the ossuary is much more applicable to this topic. Regards, Grahamwild 16:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Simple Question

Why are they searching for a tomb if Jesus rose to Heaven? There wouldn't be a body to bury....Epetrone 03:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC) TC)

<Why are they searching for a tomb if Jesus rose to Heaven? There wouldn't be a body to bury....>

When you read the Bible, do you take everything written there literally? I ask this very same question to my Religion professor, and he answered, the Bible should not be taken literally.

Well, do you have another book that states that Jesus was burried on earth with his family and never rose to heaven?205.235.34.131 13:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

<Well, do you have another book that states that Jesus was burried on earth with his family and never rose to heaven?>

Look at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, which is 28:16-20: Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."



The Toledoth Yeshu, a compilation of early Jewish writings, support the stolen body hypothesis, saying, and I quote, "his disciples stole him by night from the tomb, where he was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that he has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven." But I do not believe that Jesus' disciples stole his body, it's possible that grave robbers might bribed the Roman soldiers, and stole the body from the tomb, and I do not believe that Jesus' disciples "deceive men by asserting that he has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven," I believe Jesus appeared to his disciples in spirit or maybe the disciples had a visionary experience of Jesus appearing to them, either way, I believe Jesus appeared to them, I believe Jesus did ascend to heaven, the disciples saw his spirit rise up to Heaven or maybe the disciples had another visionary experience, either way, I believe Jesus ascended to heaven and is now seated at the right hand of God, why, I believe that the appearance and ascending into Heaven of Jesus is the work of God, either it was spiritual or visionary , God doesn't do things without a good reason. What I basically did was combine two hypothesises on Jesus' death and resurrection, mainly, the Vision hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jesus#Vision_hypothesis) and the Stolen body hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jesus#Stolen_body_hypothesis), the only thing about the Stolen body hypothesis that I don't agree with is the claim that Jesus' apostles stole the body, later fabricating Jesus' resurrection, yes, I believe Jesus' body was stolen, but not by his own disciples. Greg 10:09 AM, 08 March 2007

In the Bible, it is said that Jesus resurrected, and then ascended into heaven, now try to look at it in another point of view, what if Jesus did not resurrect? But only appeared to the apostles in spirit, and being the Son of God, Jesus could manifest himself in physical form, which can explain why the apostles could touch his wounds from the Crucifiction. Now we go to the ascended into heaven, what if it was Jesus' spirit that ascendeded into Heaven? Leaving his physical body on Earth, and about Mary Magdalene and the rest of the apostles seeing Jesus' tomb openned, Mary Magdalene seeing the angel inside, Mary Magdalene and the rest of the apostles seeing that Jesus' body has dissapeared, what if that was a vision from God?

I would like to point out that I am Catholic, and I believe that there are always possiblities.User:Greg 08:23 PM, 5 March 2007

[edit] Problems about the Statistical Evidence

I have already posted a comment in the other page (Talk:Talpiot_Tomb): The probability computation does not require the assumption that all these people were related. This is a dubious interpretation made by journalists.Sfoucher 04:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem with the statistical argument is that it contains the tacit assumption that Jesus' tomb WOULD contain exactly these names, no more and no less. It's 600 to 1 that these precise names appear together on a tomb? Ok - that ALSO the case for any other set of names on ANY tomb. Why do you think that precisely these names and no other other names WOULD appear on Jesus tomb?
It also makes a claim that's irrelevant to the question. If I pick a grave at random, the odds that it will contain the names "Michael" and "Cathy" are very slim. But, obviously, that does NOT mean that if I find one that DOES say "Michael" and "Cathy," it must be one specific Michael and Cathy. The documentary makers are acting as though the first statement is the same as the second. Obviously it isn't.
And as an aside, isn't it strange the Mary Magdalene would be titled "the master" on the grave, but the supposed Jesus has NO honorific, or indication of any importance?
In my opinion, the statistical analysis is only trying to estimate the likelihood of a particular cluster of names. It is important to clearly define the scope and the limitations of such an analysis. Prof. Feuerverger is very clear on what can be concluded from his calculations: The role of statistics here is primarily to attempt to assess the odds of an equally (or more) `compelling' cluster of names arising purely by chance under certain random sampling assumptions and under certain historical assumptions. In this respect I now believe that I should not assert any conclusions connecting this tomb with any hypothetical one of the New Testament family. The interpretation of the computation should be that it is estimating the probability of there having been another family at the time living in Jerusalem whose tomb this might be, under certain specified assumptions.[1] (Sfoucher 18:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)).
Yes; Mary in some cases might be titled as "the master", please watch first that documentary where they explain it. --Zzzzzzzzzz 21:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The point isn't that she has a title; it's that she ONLY does. But NOT Jesus or Mary. Doesn't that strike you as a bit strange? Especially considering the claim that it uses "Maria" because that's what Roman Christians were calling Mary of Nazareth? Carlo 22:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The point raised in the documentary is that it is the person who puts the remains in the ossuaries writes the name on it, for future reference. The people responsible for the Jesus if he was "Jesus" would have been family members, hence would not use 'master' or another title (I don't care how great my brother is, to me, he is still my brother :-) ). ASSUMMING the Mariamene e Mara was one of the last to be buried, she may have been buried by followers, hence the addition of the title. As with all retrospective science, assumptions are made, Grahamwild 15:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article broken

Someone broke interwikis and references when he/she did CLEANUP. Please FIX IT. --Zzzzzzzzzz 21:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://fisher.utstat.toronto.edu/andrey/OfficeHrs.txt

[edit] Symbology

It would be interesting to add a section to this article discussing the Chevron/circle symbol and the snowflake-looking symbols on the ossuaries. 155.91.28.232 20:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Context

I think the article could use some more context. I read somewhere that the Israeli authorities routinely re-bury all bones in unmarked graves regardless of the traditions of the ancient peoples involved (obviously the tradition here would be Ossuaries). That would be an interesting point in the discussion and perhaps a link if there is another article... I can't imagine that isn't controversial. But that is why they did not DNA test the other ossuaries.

[edit] Possible neutral-revision of interpretation section

Please review:


David Mavorah, a curator of the Israel museum in Jerusalem, points out that the names on the ossuaries were extremely common. "We know that Joseph, Jesus and Mariamne were all among the most common names of the period. To start with all these names being together in a single tomb and leap from there to say this is the tomb of Jesus is a little far-fetched, to put it politely."[8] The stastics calculated may lead one to the conclusion that the odds of such combination of names are low, and those odds could potentially cause a possibility that a great of a leap of faith is not required to accept this family as the family of Jesus of Nazareth. (See statistics section above).

Professor Amos Kloner, former Jerusalem district archaeologist of the Israel Antiquities Authority and the first archaeologist to examine the tomb in 1980[23], told the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper that the name Jesus had been found 71 times in burial caves at around that time.[8]. He said that the inscription on the ossuary is not clear enough to ascertain, and although the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards it makes for profitable television.

((This quote is biased, find a quote based on the previous sentence. It is an opinion and not fact.) Quote: “The new evidence is not serious, and I do not accept that it is connected to the family of Jesus…. They just want to get money for it."[4])

Dr. Richard Bauckham, professor at the University of St Andrews, has catalogued ossuary names from that region since 1980. His records(needs reference if possible), based on the catalogue, indicate that "Jesus" was the 6th most popular name of Jewish men, and "Mary/Mariamne" was the single most popular name of Jewish women at that time. Given this, it is possible that to find two ossuaries containing the names "Jesus" and "Mary/Mariamne" is not significant at all, and the chances of it being the ossuaries of Jesus and Mary Magdalene are "very small indeed." [24]

Concerning the inscription attributed to Jesus son of Joseph, Steve Caruso, a professional Aramaic translator using a computer to visualize different interpretations(consider a reference for the technique in a general context), claims that although it is possible to read it as "Yeshua" that "overall it is a very strong possibility that this inscription is not."[25]

(This quote needs to go with the paragraph of the source, whoever it is attributed to)Name "Mary" and derivative of it may have been used by 25% of Jewish women at that time.[26]

Conclusions from known authorities

  • Lawrence E. Stager, the Dorot professor of archaeology of Israel at Harvard, said the documentary was "exploiting the whole trend that caught on with The Da Vinci Code. One of the problems is there are so many biblically illiterate people around the world that they don’t know what is real judicious assessment and what is what some of us in the field call ‘fantastic archaeology.’"[4]
  • William Dever(Who is he? Need a reference) said, "I'm not a Christian. I'm not a believer. I don't have a dog in this fight. I just think it's a shame the way this story is being hyped and manipulated."[22]
  • Jodi Magness, an archaeologist at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, has criticized the decision of the documentary makers to make their claims at a news conference rather than in a peer-reviewed scientific article. By going directly to the media, she said, the filmmakers "have set it up as if it's a legitimate academic debate, when the vast majority of scholars who specialize in archeology of this period have flatly rejected this."[22]
  • Joe Zias, former curator of archeology at the Israeli Antiquities Authority, described in an e-mail to The Washington Post, that the documentary is a "hyped-up film which is intellectually and scientifically dishonest."[22] He also wrote an extended Viewers Guide to Understanding the Talpiot Tomb documentary, published on his web site.[27] --RWilliamKing 18:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Academics

What I notice is alot of academics making comments on other fields where they hold no authority. For example you have archelogist making comments on statistics. Unless that archeologist is a statistic expert, he has no authority on the subject matter.

Doug (March 25 2007) A lot of archaeologists are trained in statistics, and the statistics themselves are based on whether or not the inscriptions are correct and the frequency of the names. So there are quite a few archaeologists out there qualified to comment on the statistics. Dougweller 17:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Likewise you have archeologists who specialize in a PARTICULAR field of archeology has no authority to talk about another archeologist who specializes in another field. (eg An archeologist who specialize in Aztec archeology has no business commenting about archeologist/archeology who specialize in Roman archeology.)


I wouldnt mind seeing people who post academics as their source of information actually SPECIFY what field of eg. archeology they are in. Not all archeology is the same.

Doug (March 25 2007) If they are commenting on methodology, etc., then they have every right to comment. How about being specific? Name names if you want any credibility.Dougweller 17:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Bob (Mar 7, 2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.128.230 (talk) 22:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Bob, if this is a reference to my proposed re-write of that section, please be aware that I did not write the original material, I only edited the content to seem neutral.--RWilliamKing 16:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

RWilliamKing, it wasnt adressed to you. I was making a general statement on how academic sources needs to be more specific in regards to article writing (in general).

-Bob (Mar 9, 2007)

I don't think the sentence mentioning Dr. James Charlesworth belongs in the "Production" section, as it does not describe the production, but rather presents an opinion about the thesis of the film. Also, while Dr. Charlesworth is an eminent authority on the New Testament and related texts, he is not an archeologist. Placing his quote where it is gives undue prominence to his opinion. Chuck Y 18:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, Simcha, Cameron and Tabor are also not archaeologists. DougWeller

Before we start arguing on authorities, it was Simcha himself who said information should be freely shared despite the fact that they are not subject experts. That's his answer to critics on why he didn't publish his findings through academic forums first. If this is true, then one should be open to constructive criticism from the very public that he freely shared it with. Should we all just follow what he says or are we allowed to form an opinion? --76.5.193.234 19:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The issue of the names being too common"

In reading through the analyses that follow, one should bear in mind that the name "Jesus" is in fact illegible on the ossuary. A full realization of this problem will have a drastic impact on any statistical computation. For details on the illegibility of the ossuary, see, e.g., http://jesus-illegible.blogspot.com/. Critical Reader 19:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Recently a certain degree of controversy has arised about this section, I deleted the section until a consensus can be reached here, please post your opinions here before editing it back, and remember to keep a cool head while disscusing it, thanks for your cooperation. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact is everything that segment is saying is true. It is not cited, but everything it says is cited somewhere in the article. The only problem with the article is that it seems colliquial Thegreyanomaly 00:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that the "only problem with the article is that it seems colliquial [sic]." The section in question grossly oversimplifies an extremely complex issue (sampling, statistical analysis, and probability), which, in my opinion, is largely what the TV program itself did. If you watched the Ted Koppel discussion after the program, some of the commenters scratched the surface on the considerable statistical questions that remain, questions that even the statistician presented in the program later acknwledged. The "1 in 600" statement, whether in the program or in the section in the Wikipedia article, is not credible without better sampling and statistical analysis. Ward3001 01:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


This article isn't a soapbox for you to tell people what they should THINK about someone's criticism. Some people said the odds were 600 to 1; others differed or said they were asking the wrong question and looking at the wrong odds. That's it. You are trying to place your personal debating points into the body of the article, and your writing READS like one side of a debate. Carlo 01:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The people who differ state that the likelihood of it not being them was even higher. Clarifying that the statistics says that it almost must be Jesus is not non-neutral. Its based on general evidence that is factual. Thegreyanomaly 04:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That is simply untrue. Others have estimated - using the statistics from the James ossuary - that were (statisically) 11 Yeshuas walking around Jerusalem who had the same sort of relationship with people bearing those names. ELEVEN. That's 11-1 AGAINST, not 600-1 FOR. And that doesn't take into account that JESUS WASN'T FROM JERUSALEM and would even BE one of the 11, NOR that one of the names is of a son, which there is NO evidence that Jesus ever had. After taking those into account, one scholar has said it's 10,000-1 against THIS tomb being THAT Yeshua.
And, again, this article isn't a soapbox for your debating points. Carlo 17:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
please show me these references Thegreyanomaly 00:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Thegreyanomaly, this article by physicist Randy Ingermanson would be a good place for you to start. He has provided a very beginner-friendly explanation of some of the math errors he found in the book (which I haven't read, but I did watch the film, and I saw the same errors in the film).
Part of the reason Wikipedians are having difficulty improving this article seems to be a philosophy some people have, that both sides of every disagreement deserve equal treatment. That may be appropriate in some disciplines, but not in math. Very often, in math, one side is right and the other side is wrong.
Here's a very simple example. Shake two quarters in a box, then open the lid and look. What is the probability that you'll see a head and a tail? Some people, apparently including the person who did the math for the film, will say that you'll see a head and a tail after one out of every four shakes, on average. Some other people say that you'll see a head and a tail after half of the shakes, on average. The former group is wrong, period. The latter group is right. It isn't a matter of opinion.
I think you'll understand why, after you read Ingermanson's article. -- Evil-mer0dach 02:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I just search google and google news for articles stating a one in eleven chance, found nothing. Also there could be a 1/11 chance of any random man from Israel/Jerusalem/etc. being 1/11 but that does not account for the fact that a Jesus son of Joseph, and two Marys with one being genetically dissimilar. If this was your article http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070305/cm_rcp/examining_the_jesus_tomb_evide, I don't think it is plausible to accept certain things it says. If he was such a great teacher and saint it is highly probably that either his family or his followers could have afforded to put get him a middle-class tomb. The reason for the name inscription being in shitty quality was because the names were there so that family members could reorganize the ossuaries and know who is who; it was not intended for showcasing; whatever quality the names were in could be minimized to mere chance of how lazy the person inscribing was. Also, many of the other found ossuaries did not even have names listed. Also the articles says there were only three ossuaries, there were about 10 found http://www.globegazette.com/articles/2007/03/07/opinion/doc45ee4323e58f4683230991.txt. Thegreyanomaly 02:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Math can have a NonNPOV especially when one can be deceitful (I'm not saying he has, but it could be possible; i don't have the time at the moment to check out all his calculations, I'll do it on the weekend). First of this guy is not a statistician. He's a physicist. What relation does he have to historical statistics. What authority does he have to say that Mariamne can be ignored. What authority does he have to say that the possible son of Jesus would have had a prominent role in Jerusalem; if he was the son of Jesus and a Roman officer a or an anti-Christian Jewish found out, he'd be dead. Some of the claims this guy makes lack authority. Second, have you looked him up. I googled him and he has been declared to be scifi writer that are in support of Christian morals/themes. In the case of something like this the only sources that can truly be neutral need to be non-Christian and secular. It's quite obvious, that all religious Christians, want at least some part of this to be false; an author/physicist known for writing Christian science fiction could safely be considered a religious Christian. Thegreyanomaly 05:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'm joining in the discussion. First, math alone may have one answer to a single question, but that is not true for mathematical solutions as answers to historical questions (obviously!) Why? Because history is debatable, just as we are debating on it now. To even found mathematical calculations on historical events is ridiculous, since one has to verify that the records and the measurement of them (historical events) are absolutely accurate. It's different when you're scientifically experimenting and mathematically solving a problem right here and now, when computers can help you identify variables, etcetera, than when you are computing for a historical event that happened thousands of years ago. That alone should prevent one from taking a supposed "study" seriously. But I'm not here to advance a belief. I'm here to suggest what should belong in the article. I think we should mention studies, statiscal and otherwise, in the article so long as they look serious enough and have some sort of scientific and logical method, and the ones who made it are credible and preferably have some relevance to the field. The deleted section should be restored and edited so as to sound formal. This physicist's calculations should be mentioned somewhere in the article, too, although we should not not make the reference to it lengthy because I'm sure we could expect other refutations to come, which deserve more mention in the article. Lastly, we should not delve too much into refuting every study here in the talk page. Why? Because in the first place, we're not even conducting a counter study to refute claims. What right do we have to say a study was done the wrong way? Do we know exactly how it's supposed to be done? We're researchers here, not professional archaeologists or scientists for NASA. And anyway, the objective here is to report on this phenomena, not to prove that one side is right and the other wrong. Moonwalkerwiz 06:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Moonwalkerwiz, you have a good point. If the end goal is to calculate the "probability" that Yeshua of Talpiot is the same person as Jesus of Nazareth, then it's impossible to get a single correct answer which no reasonable person would dispute-- because even if your mathematical calculation is indisputable, there will surely be some reasonable people who will dispute your initial assumptions.
But even though it's impossible to be definitely right, it is possible to be definitely wrong! If you make real mathematical mistakes in your calculation, leading you to get a result that would be incorrect even if all your initial assumptions were indisputably correct, then your calculation is just plain wrong-- and all reasonable people will agree that you are wrong, as soon as they understand the math.
Imagine three analysts trying to calculate the percentage of votes that various candidates would have had in Florida 2000, if every legitimate voter had succeeded in getting his or her vote counted as intended. Analyst A says Bush would have won, and his math is correct, but many people doubt his assumptions. Analyst B says Gore would have won, and his math is correct, but many people doubt his assumptions. Analyst C says Pat Buchanan would have won, but on closer examination it turns out that he was dividing by the number of counties when he should have been dividing by the number of voters. Imagine that analyst C produces a film called "The Lost Presidency of Pat Buchanan: the Real 43rd President." What would you suggest that Wikipedia should tell its readers about the "Lost Presidency" film?
Also you wrote: "The deleted section should be restored and edited so as to sound formal." The deleted section was just an informal paraphrase of the statistical argument that appeared in the film, right? Instead of trying to write a more formal-sounding paraphrase, I think it would be better to transcribe the statistical argument directly from the film, or copy it directly from the film's web site, and treat it as a direct quotation. That way we don't have to worry about whether our paraphrase represents the film fairly and accurately. -- Evil-mer0dach 09:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Evil-mer0dach. I think it's difficult or impossible to simplify the statistical arguments presented in the film without losing sight of either the underlying assumptions on which the statistics are based, or the appropriateness of the statistical techniques themselves, or both. The deleted section does not need to be restored. Ward3001 15:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the statistical argument is already pretty well covered. What would be included that isn't in the section "Statistical report"? Carlo 21:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Thegreyanomaly, I don't want you to have blind trust in Ingermanson or his calculation. I just want you to read his article and understand the math, and then apply the mathematical knowledge you learned from it to the statistical calculation in the film. I'm sure you'll disagree with Ingermanson's own probability estimate, because you disagree with his initial assumptions; but you'll also understand that the film's calculation is wrong even if its initial assumptions are accurate, because the filmmakers' math is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter if Ingermanson is biased; you don't have to be unbiased to notice (and explain) blatant math errors. -- Evil-mer0dach 09:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


Once again a physicist is NOT a statistical expert.

Any respectful statiscal expert can tell you how statiscal data by non-experts can be misrespresented and cherry picked.

(I already posted a section on how Academic references can be misleading.)

Bob (Mar 9, 2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.128.230 (talk) 00:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Ultimatum to justifying a NPOV

Unless someone can give a valid statistical report(by a valid statistician of NPOV) justifying the physicist's claim, I will put the section back into the article after formalizing and referencing it Thegreyanomaly 22:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC) Update: I will take your Ingermanson claims to an admin if necessary. The neutrality of this page is at stake. Thegreyanomaly 23:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thegreyanomaly, you wrote: "I will take your Ingermanson claims to an admin if necessary." To whom are you writing? You and I are the only two people who have mentioned Ingermanson's name. Are you writing to me?
The only claim I made about Ingermanson is that he has written a particularly beginner-friendly (and also, I might add, particularly non-combative) explanation of some of the many beginner math errors that have been found in the film's statistical calculation, and that his article would be a good starting point for you if you want to learn enough math to understand the errors. -- Evil-mer0dach 13:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictions with Christian views section is original research

This whole section is unreferenced and reads like original research. It is also far too vague: it doesn't make clear which Christians hold the views that are contradicted (e.g. assumption of mary and Jesus having not brothers/sisters is not an article of faith for most protestants. I'm removing this section as OR until someone can verify it with citations.

I am not the author, just an interested onlooker. But it looked referenced to me. It had a quotation (referenced) and the person quoted appears to have been the original, so that part of the section would have been secondary research. Most of the bullet points looked obvious and are well represented in wikipedia and elsewhere. Sandwich Eater 16:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm adding [citation needed]s where needed. Grover cleveland 16:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Hasn't it been stated by Wales himself that NOT adding unreferenced information is better than adding information that has a 'Reference Needed'? I could be wrong. --RWilliamKing 16:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
This section violates Original research because it is an unpublished synthesis of published material. We need a reliable source that specifically states "The Lost Tomb Of Jesus" violates e.g. The Catholic belief in the Assumption of Mary. It is not sufficient to say that "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" states that Mary's bones were found and that that would violate the belief in the Assumption without haveing a reliable source that specifically makes that argument. There may be such sources but they have to be cited in the article. Grover cleveland 16:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not original research per WP:OR#What_is_not_original_research.3F: "Editors may make straightforward mathematical calculations or logical deductions based on fully attributed data that neither change the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source." The tag has no justification. The only thing this section does is comparing. adriatikus | 16:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC) (I did the section)
I'm sorry but this is not correct. Please reread WP:SYN. This is an absolutely textbook case of a synthesis being original research. Saying that the documentary contradicts Christian views definitely "changes the significance of the data" and is not analagous to calculating the percentages of votes cast for a candidate, which is the example given in WP:OR#What_is_not_original_research.3F. The arguments being made in this section are like this example:
Premise: The Lost Tomb of Jesus claims that Mary's bones were found
Premise: Christians believe that mary was assumed into heaven
Conclusion: The Lost Tomb of Jesus violates Christian beliefs
Please compare with the example of original research given in WP:SYN:
Premise: Jones copied references
Premise: The Chicago Manual does not define copying references as plagiarism
Conclusion: According to the definition in the Chicago Manual, Jones did not commit plagiarism
I hope that the point is clear. Another problem with this section should also be obvious: the section does not make clear which Christians believe in, e.g. the Assumption of Mary (answer: not all of them). We need specific citations for every claim. Grover cleveland 16:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
quote: 'Saying that the documentary contradicts Christian views definitely "changes the significance of the data"' -- IMHO they raised theological questions both in the film and on the website. I could agree with you if I couldn't find any theological consideration in the film. But they are there. Jacobovici said "we aren't questioning Christianity, we aren't theologians", but they do make suppositions about (e.g.) the ascent (as a spiritual only one). And about the differences between denominations, this isn't a theological article. I think it's sufficient to write about the majority's view and link to relevant pages. (I could demonstrate the 2 levels of the discourse in this film -a "scientific" one, and a symbolic one-, but this indeed would be OR.) adriatikus | 17:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Which "majority" are you talking about, though? Is there a "majority" to believe in, for example, the assumption of Mary? I'm not sure. It would all need to be referenced. Grover cleveland 21:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
No problem. If you feel the need, you may edit who believes what. (I was talking about Catholic and Orthodox churches, which IMHO are significant took together - see List of Christian denominations by number of members; dunno about the rest, but you can add more info if you think it's missing) adriatikus | 23:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
If one says Jesus raised bodily to heaven and another suggest he didn't (etc.) do you need an external source to say they contradict? Hm. adriatikus | 16:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you do. See WP:SYN. To see why, consider that there may be a lot of dispute about whether two views actually contradict. For example, the two genealogies of Jesus given in Matthew and Luke appear to contradict each other, but some scholars have put a lot of effort into trying to argue that they don't. Grover cleveland 16:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
We aren't talking about subtle text interpretations here. We are talking about which interpretation one adheres to (or pushes forward, or suggests, or implies). It is as simple as "He did raise bodily to heaven" vs. "He didn't raise bodily to heaven". For almost 2000 years the Christians have believed into the empty tomb. This is not subtle, this is about an empty tomb. You support this, or you don't. The Church does, the film doesn't. The question is "Do they contradict?". Hehe. Obviously yes. adriatikus | 21:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The empty tomb does not preclude the claims the filmmakers are making. It's quite possible for the tomb to originally have been found empty after the resurrection, but that Jesus died later and his bones were stored. I'm not claiming this happened, I'm just claiming that it's a possibility and the complete lack of specific references in this section is insufficient.
Sign yourself, please adriatikus | 21:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Premise A = Church: empty tomb because Jesus raised bodily to heaven
Premise B = Filmmakers: we've found the body
Conclusion C = A and B contradict.
The error you are making is judging by the film's paradigm. To analyze something you have to make a step behind to see the whole picture. And keep things simpler. Those kind of assertions are only speculations.
It's weird they are playing with symbols all around, "analyzing" Church's history, checking the Nicene Creed (as stated in the film), making assumptions about the ascension of Jesus, but they say at the press conference they aren't debating theologically. This contradiction makes people talk and means more money. adriatikus | 22:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The comparison to the Chicago Manual example is faulty. There you have premises A and B, and the conclusion C, which is A interpreted through B. In my case you have A and B, concluding C which is (A = non contradicts B). adriatikus | 21:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Heh. Let me quote from the film (in the first 10 minutes): "We need to analyze the articles of faith" (which is the Nicene Creed). Does this look like a scientific discourse or as a theological one? The film does get into a theological dispute (although denied in the press conference). This adds another "significance" (by your request) to the data. They did this film not only as a scientific layout of facts, but also interpreting them with regard to Christianity. adriatikus | 20:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
So is the Assumption of Mary in the Nicene Creed? NO. Is Jesus having no brothers or sisters? NO. Jesus not being married? NO. Grover cleveland 21:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I think you are POV. I'm asking for another opinions. (for you: the point is they've wanted a theological dispute, as it meant money to them; the quote was to show you they've got into it). adriatikus | 21:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
No, they aren't. But once they've talked about checking the Creed, they've set a point of reference, which is the Church. This happened in the beginning of the film. Hence, the film may be seen also as confronting "facts" (as they've presented them) to the Christian faith. adriatikus | 22:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Still wanting more opinions. Thank you. adriatikus | 22:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


Summary of my arguments against tagging as original research:

  • Original research issue:
premise A: Jones copied references
premise B: The Chicago Manual does not define copying references as plagiarism
conclusion C: According to the definition in the Chicago Manual, Jones did not commit plagiarism
In the Chicago Manual example, C is judging A through B. C is a synthesis of A and B because C is a value judgment of A by the perspective of B.
  • this section's structure:
premise A: film's assertions ans suppositions
premise B: Church's teachings
conclusion C: A and B contradict
In this section I say A and B contradict. I do not say A (or B) is wrong (or has another quality, or value) in respect to B (or A). It is a comparison of A and B, not an interpretation of A or B (or of their implications), not making assumptions on A or B. Hence, it is only a "[..] straightforward [..] logical deduction based on fully attributed data that neither change the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source." (WP:OR#What_is_not_original_research.3F). It is not an interpretation of the facts or theories in the film in respect to Church's position, it is a straightforward comparison based on "fully attributed data" (Church's position is to be found in the wiki articles, since WP may reference itself).
The part which is a synthesis of both film assertions and Church's position (and fits the Chicago Manual example) is the blasphemy thing (judging A in respect to B), but it has references and the phrase indicates a possibility [1] since it's not an official position, but an opinion of a third.
  • majority (which Christians hold the views) issue:
The film contradicts at least the Catholic and Orthodox points of view which, according to the List of Christian denominations by number of members, form a majority together. More info about who holds what can easily be found in the linked wiki articles. adriatikus | 14:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the linked Wikipedia articles in this section make their own researched case for each "contradiction", meaning that the linked articles already have their sources that clearly show these as articles of faith contradicted by the documentary, either of the overall Christian or specifically Catholic and Orthodox faith (as it is now specified). Of course, it would be possible I guess to add a quote to "prove" that they are indeed articles of faith (or at least part of the Tradition), but that would decrease in my opinion the overall clarity of the section. For the Assumption of Mary, for example, one could write beside it as a source : Pius XII, APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION (sorry for the upper case) : "by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." I second the removing of the "original research" tag. --Benz74 15:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accidental browser blanking

Could some one please fix the accidental blanking from a few edits ago? Everything south of the "Conflicts with Christian views" section needs to be restored. My browser is horrible for doing that. Thank you! Ecto 19:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking out a huge chunk of the article

He, someone blanked a huge chunk of the article!!!! How does someone go about to restore what has been lost? --Benz74 20:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC) Last known full article : 19:30 8 March 2007

Done adriatikus | 20:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just found out how to do it myself.. done it as well... --Benz74 20:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems you've lost the edits between the 2 versions. adriatikus | 20:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that blanking everyone. My browser can't handle articles that are too long, and I had no idea that this one was so long. There was no way for me to fix it on my own. Thank you! Ecto 21:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Protection

If the article was protected due the editing dispute, that has been resolved. See my User talk page. Carlo 12:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Just so everyone knows, someone must REQUEST that protection be removed. It is not done automatically. If the protection was because of disagreements about the Mavorah statement, my understanding is that the issue has been resolved. Ward3001 17:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good News

Say it is the Jesus of the bible. Doesn't that add to rather than take away from Christianity, confirming more details of the New Testament than it denies? So there really was this guy called Jesus, who had a wife and child and apparently said and did some amazing things. Good news, I'd say, whether he physically rose from the dead or ascended into heaven or not. Can't we take comfort from the fact that he existed - that he knew what it was like to have a family, to love and be human? And isn't his message of redemption and rebirth something we can all relate to every day? We should admire Jesus the man and son of God, as we are all children of God, and not be distracted by specious theological arguements. I believe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.9.250.240 (talk) 19:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree with you 100%. I believe in possibilities, isn't it possible that Jesus had a family, a wife and child? Would having a family, destroy Jesus' message to a path to a better life? As we venture more into the 21st century, new discoveries will be unearthed, are we to reject these new discoveries, all because they contradict Catholic doctrine, or they contradict what the Bible says, I'd say no, I accept all new discoveries, even if they contradict Catholic doctrine or the Bible. I do not believe that faith and belief should be fixed, I believe that faith and belief should have room for possibilities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.167.9.106 (talk) 13:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC).
Talk pages are supposed to be related to articles. In order to promote/ask/debate/argue/discuss personal beliefs/opinions/questions there are forums and blogs. See #2 and #4 at How to use article talk pages. adriatikus | 00:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The three skulls

Anyone got any clues about the three extraordinary skulls that was found in the tomb?

- "This too was decidedly not typical. In ancient Jerusalem, the dead were placed inside tombs; in tombs, the dead were placed inside ossuaries. If anything was left behind, it was a lamp or a bottle of perfume—not skulls. What were human bones doing under the symbol? Whose bones were they?"

--Roberth Edberg 07:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The dead were usually put in trenches. Ossuaries were reused and there were a number of bones, bone and skull fragments, on the floor. The tomb had been re-entered in anquity and we can't assumed that the skulls were placed deliberately where they were found. Since they were in 3 different parts of the cave how could they have been under one symbol? Dougweller 14:00, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand how the skulls are symbolic of anything. Seems to me that this is an archeological issue of some sort rather than a symbology issue. Sandwich Eater

I removed that quote and it's been put back with a reference to the 'official site' where it comes from. However, I still don't know who wrote it and I am not at all convinced that 'reliable' can be used to apply to that site. Besides the fact that the map shows the 3 skulls in different places in the room, not under the facade. There is an issue of varifiability here. I'm looking into it.Dougweller 19:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Grammar please! One skull *was* found on a floor, three skulls *were* found on a floor. Were is the plural form. Thanks! Sandwich Eater 13:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find out who wrote the quote, but I'm presuming it was someone like Pelligrino or Cameron or Simcha, ie someone who hasn't a clue what they are talking about. Definitely not 'a reliable source', so it appears to me that it should be removed. What I am told by real archaeologists who have worked in Jerusalem is that it is nonsense. There isn't 'typical', I've just been told of one tomb with a beautiful sarcophagus lid and no sarcophagus -- this was an unrobbed tomb. Not all the bones were put in ossuaries, and tombs have been found with bones in all sorts of arrangements, scattered everywhere. One of the archaeologists who made these comments was the first into the Talpiot tomb.Dougweller 19:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It does seem like a strange assertion, and doesn't seem to have anything to do with the symbols section. It seems to assert that since skulls were found on the floor, and since most tombs did not leave stray bones about that it must be unusual or that the tomb was previously entered, or that someone couldn't afford an ossuary, or that it was early christian somehow. I don't know. But it seems to have something to do with the overall debate and nothing to do with the symbology/symbolism of the tomb. I will move the three skulls bit to a more appropriate section.Sandwich Eater 15:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. And just to make it clear, stray bones seem to be pretty normal in tombs such as this one, which had fragments of bone all over the floor. Dougweller 18:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Since the tomb was vandalized twice, once in antiquity and secondly with kids kicking things around, we really do not know what the skulls mean and/or whether their exact placement can be considered 'significant'. --Jbanning22 05:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biased

This article is such garbage! Of course it was Jesus! We know that for sure! Jesus couldn't have risen from the dead; this article has to say that, or it will be the most biased piece of junk on the planet! Skeptic03 02:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC) ok

You're really bad at being a skeptic. 154.20.253.36 20:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I understand that Skeptic03 comes across as a goose, but I think that (s)he has a point, albeit given in a pretty grunt-like, pig-ignorant way. Wikipedia does not allow extremist sources to be quoted, except in rare and special circumstances. I know this may upset some people, but I would humbly suggest that anybody who holds that Joshua bar Joseph rose from the dead in a literal and physical sense, is an extremist of a pretty virulent type. Morandir 13:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Writing "anybody who holds that Joshua bar Joseph rose from the dead in a literal and physical sense, is an extremist of a pretty virulent type" is just as "grunt-like and pig-ignorant" as anything Skeptic03 wrote. Just stick to following Wikipedia's policies instead of calling 2 billion Christians "extremists." I understand that you want to push your own (rather minority, rather marginal) POV on here, but your suggestion that we remove all references that come from Christian sources is an extreme misapplication of Wikipedia's policies, not to mention a contradiction of its most important policy, NPOV. 209.87.18.2 17:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it really relevant to have an assertion (neaR THE END) that it can't tbe the tomb of Jesus because it contradicts new testament accounts, along with the old favorite that Peter and John wouldn't die for a lie? 211.29.162.234 08:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Why are Ben witherton's III (who he?) opinions on the truthfulness of certain certain apostles worthy of being quoted? Put them under theological considerations if you must. His last two quoted points merely say "the tomb contradicts my view of the truthfulness of scripture, therefore it must be false". We know that religious people don't want it to be the tomb but that is not evidence eitehr way. and by the way, he says all the roman authroities agree the tomb was empty - what on earth is he talking about? doesn't sound like very good expert opinion. E4mmacro 05:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

More on the Witherington III rubbish. The link to Galatians 1:9 reveals "As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema." This is supposed to prove the reliabilty of the apostle John, but it seems irrelevant. E4mmacro 05:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

As to the possible bias in this article: While I do not hold that Christians who believe in the corporeal resurrection of Jesus are extremists, and while it does seem that you did your research fairly extensively, I don't believe your research was thorough. I came away from the article feeling as though I'd just left a debate between you and a comatose Simcha Jacobovici (comatose because he was unable to argue back). At first I thought I might just be being paranoid, perhaps Jacobovici was really just that off and I was too quick to be intrigued by unlikely possibilities. But upon looking at your sources I noted that the vast majority of your sources and your external links were "critical views". In a piece that is supposed to be simply facts and unbiased, I recommend doing research that looks at ALL evidence, rather than just looking at evidence that collaborates your own personal views. In writing this article with such clear bias you are not any better than you accuse Jacobovici of being. 76.78.102.135 20:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This anonymous poster seems tho think there was a single author for the article, and if he is unhappy had the opportunity to do something about it. However, given the subject, it is not surprising that there are a lot of critical views. Dougweller 19:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This article needs to be rewritten. The article should describe the movie/book only with a section on the controversy instead of attempting to argue the merits of the film in every section. In other words the article should record what was said in the film (which is the purpose of an encyclopedia) not dispute the claims the film makes. That is for another entry, maybe "controversies of Christianity" or a section at the end of this one.Makhaira (talk) 05:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You aren't agreeing with me. It is easier to follow something as complicated as this if each section is NPOV, separating out criticisms would make it harder to follow. And you are wrong about the purpose of an encyclopedia -- as WP:ENC says, "An encyclopedia is a written compendium aiming to convey information on all branches of knowledge." Generally speaking, the sort of separation you suggest is frowned upon, and there is even a template which says "It has been suggested that some of the information in this article's Criticism or Controversy section(s) be merged into other sections to achieve a more neutral presentation."--Doug Weller (talk) 07:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crucifixion.

One question, which seems to have been ignored by all commentators, looms over film, book and debate. We are told in various places that, after discoveries of tombs in Israel, the bones found within were normally given to Orthodox Jewish authorities for reburial. Presumably, this was done in the case of the Talpiot tomb. Presumably, too, transcripts or receipts of this handover exist in some authority's archives. Indeed, there may even be eyewitnesses who remember the occasion. The question that no one seems to have asked is whether or not the bones of Yeshuah bore evidence of crucifixion.

I am not trying to claim that such information would prove any historical, religious or statistical assertions. It would merely be of interest as an element in the debate.--PeadarMaguidhir 21:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

With respect, you haven't looked into this very deeply or you would know first that the bones were indeed reburied, and that secondly there is no way of linking any particular bones to any particular artefact. Dougweller 19:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the insight. I never doubted that the bones were reburied; on the contrary, I wrote it above. But, I would like to respectfully ask if any of the bones showed signs of crucifixion at the time of the handing over of the bones to the Jewish Orthodox authorities.--PeadarMaguidhir 07:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)