Talk:The Lord of the Rings

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	The Lord of the Rings is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
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[edit] Help

I know this will be deleted quickly, but I really need help. Could you guys go to this page:

http://lordoftheringsmelkorfaction.wetpaint.com/

it is my lord of the rings wiki. It is free to join, and I REALLY need the help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rembrant13 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Influences

Zoroastrianism has had indirct influence (by influencing the Roman catholicism ) on the books !! Does anybody have any idea how to add this to the article ?Persianknight (talk) 11:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Collect a list of references that back up your 'fact' and add them to the article. Thu (talk) 12:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

"Tolkien had already completed most of the book, including the ending in its entirety, before the first nuclear bombs were made known to the world at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945."

My problem with the above is that Tolkien might have finished his book before the first functional nuclear bombs were created, but keep in mind that the possibility of a nuclear bomb was known much earlier than 1945.

Say, for instance, that the ring is an allegory for a nuclear bomb: it works in the sense that neither of them shall, "fall in the wrong hands."

Thanks. Seth Arlington (talk) 23:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

One slight problem; Tolkien himself wrote that the book was "neither allegorical nor topical." (Foreword to the Second Edition) So you can't say "the ring equals nuclear weapons" because it doesn't. It can be representative of nuclear weapons or allusions could be drawn, but Tolkien himself denied any sort of direct allegorical content in his books. Alinnisawest (talk) 04:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Tolkien wanted his myth to be "applicable" rather than allegorical or topical., i.e., applicable to the situation in which readers found themselves. However he did believe his work was fundamentally Catholic--to what extent, I don't recall. I believe he speaks more about this in his Letters and in the Tolkien Reader.

Kona1611 (talk) 06:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

To clarify: I was discussing (and defending) the removal of the above-text from the article. What it suggests is that, "no working nuclear bomb is evidence the ring is not an allegory." In other words, much like yourselves, I think there are better ways to come to this conclusion -- Tolkien's denial, for instance. Saying that, "something doesn't (physically) exist is proof that it's irrelevant," is illogical. Seth Arlington (talk) 16:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Presence of God or gods in the Lord of the Rings

I undid revision 194533591 by 65.78.108.234 because I think it is misleading in its present form and does not present the true state of God or gods appearing in LOTR. First, Tolkien's desire was to put the Germanic polytheism into a monotheistic framework and so he invented the Ainur, who are the Valar and the Maiar. Tolkien, in his 1951 letter to Milton Waldman, said Valar are "powers: Englished as gods," and "On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted---well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity." Gandalf, Sauron, Saurumen, and Radigast (all appearing or mentioned in LOTR) are Maiar, who serve the Valar as the next lower level in the heirarchy. In ancient mythologies these would commonly be the second tier of 'gods'. So it does not really do the Tolkien's intentions justice to say that "no gods are present" (as it says in the change that I undid). Furthermore, Gandalf says specifically, in his confrontation with the Balrog, "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass." Tolkien explained this as referring to God (see Secret Fire). So again, it is not really presenting the true picture to say "no gods are...even mentioned." Furthermore, the LOTR is not a standalone trilogy, but is part of a series including the Hobbit and the Silmarillion. In the latter, Eru Ilúvatar (God) appears predominantly, as do the gods the Valar and the lesser gods the Maiar. The stories of the Silmarillion are mentioned repeatedly in the LOTR in songs or other references, and so the Silmarillion with its overt creation account and overt discussion of God's relationship with the gods are organically a part of the LOTR. So again, the statement that I deleted did not produce a fair assessment of Tolkien's mythology as we find in in LOTR. Finally, there has been much speculation about the nature of Tom Bombadil, and many hold him to be an incarnation of Eru Ilúvatar (God). Many feel this is the only way to understand Tom's special powers, characteristics and history within the Tolkien universe, and so again it is not presenting the whole picture to say that "no gods are present" as though there hasn't been much serious discussion on this question. So if this topic of whether "gods" appear in the story is to be added into the article, then a more complete and balanced discussion would be required. My opinion is that "gods" are found throughout the story, because the wizards and Sauron and even balrogs are clearly "gods" in the real meaning of the word, as well as in the framework setup by Tolkien, and so in fact the story is rife with gods and not just with religious motifs. However, it is important to keep the article from growing, and I do not think it would be useful to add such a long discussion and it is therefore better kept out entirely.Sanddune777 (talk) 02:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, Eru appears as "the One" in an appendix but this may not be a clear reference to a monotheistic God (in my opinion) unless the reader has read The Silmarillion. Uthanc (talk) 10:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The only explicit reference to a god is in a description of Theoden - "...like a god of old". The reference to "the One" is certainly a reference to a supernatural entity a magnitude of power above anything else in LoTR (including the Valar), but not specifically a "god". Can anyone give some good references for the ideas that Gandalf or Saruman or Tom Bombadil are gods or even Maiar whilst writing the Lord of the Rings? That would be good article content. However, I suspect was this something he retconned into the Sil. --Davémon (talk) 21:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

He wanted the Silmarillion to be published at the same time as Lord of the Rings; I don't think he reworked who Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, etc., were when he published the Silmarillion; his writings show that he developed and planned the history of his world quite carefully. Technically, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast the Brown, Curumo, etc., are properly titled Istari ("Wizard") but they are Maiar. It is hard to distinguish a story set in a history from the history itself; if nothing else, one must accept that Tolkien eventually came to a conclusion, regardless of whether or not he originally thought of it.

[edit] Section on current editions

While I think this section is a valuable addition to the article, it seems silly to only list US editions of what is originally a UK-published book. Does anyone have the relevant information for current HarperCollins editions? Genedecanter (talk) 06:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Done. Added.

Kona1611 (talk) 06:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with the Influence section

Similarities drawn between two things do not strictly imply an influence. This entire section is riddled with this kind of basic logical fallacy, everything from Wagner to Beowulf to Odin is an interpretation of Tolkiens work and not evidence of an influence upon him. I've no doubt Tolkiens writings in the Lord of the Rings was actually influenced by some of these things, but they should be sourced and referenced properly. --Davémon (talk) 18:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a couple months since the above comment, but I concur there are original research issues in the influences section. Some of it is verifiable, but much is not. The text is interesting, and may be correct, but we need reliable sources to support the content or it should be pared down.

Another consideration is that there already is a separate influences article. If that article is kept separate, then the section in this article should be much shorter and most of the information should be merged to the other article. Or, the other article could be merged into this one. But keeping the long influences section in this article, plus also a separate article, is excessive duplication.

I noticed there is a merge discussion on that article. Please enter comments at Talk:The Lord of the Rings influences#Merge?.--Jack-A-Roe (talk) 06:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)