Talk:The Long Ships

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I would like to discuss this entry in the main book description:

"Mainly the plot gives a flattering image of Christianity, but the Christians are not portrayed in a more favourable light than Muslims, Jews and pagans."

My impression was that the author slyly mocks Christianity. Most of the conversions take place under the influence of alcohol, the direct promise of material gain or the fact that if your King said you were now a Christian, it was unhealthy to your well-being to contradict him.

Indeed, Orm's building of a church was based on a promise he made if certain earthly issues were resolved in a way most beneficial to himself.

In the book, the Vikings seemed to treat Christianity in the same manner as they did their indigenous "pagan" beliefs. Whether you sacrificed a goat or built a church, the actions efficacy was judged by the material return visited upon the pleader.

I do not think that "religion" is a central theme at all; the book rather tries to capture the pragmatic and non-regligious Norse pagan worldview, and if the some factions are divided along confessional lines, that simply mirrors the geopolitical situation at the time. dab (ᛏ) 08:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


In the section Politics the article says (without giving the source) that "there had been considerable attempts to obscure Skåneland's pre-1658 affiliation to Denmark". That is a strange statement. "Everybody" in Sweden is taught the actual historical facts at school, and nothing is hidden. Mkch 14:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC). See Skåneland for further accounts on this border country between Denmark and Sweden. Mkch 18:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Politics

There is a few weird statements in this section. For example this: "when Sweden's neighbors Denmark and Norway were occupied and quite a few Swedes tended to accommodate themselves to Nazi Germany in various ways".

This sentence makes it seem like there was some kind of general German support during WWII, which is frankly nonsense. The Nazis had their supporters in Sweden, just as everywhere else, but they were in no way close of being in majority. I think the sentence should be at least rewritten, and was there really any controverses in the contemporary Sweden about the Jew in the book? The part about Skåne is also errononeous, just as already mentioned. There has never been any attempts to hide its Danish origins. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.237.233.175 (talk) 13:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

"Accomodation" is not an unreasonable wording - while Swedish foreign policy was not pro-German, the Swedish government went to great lengths not to antagonize Nazi Germany, including censorship of the press and breaches of neutrality. The common term in Swedish is "eftergiftspolitik", which translates nicely into "policy of accomodation". Johan L 21:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
True, but on the other hand I once heard that Sweden was prepared to intervene, with all their military strength, in case National Socialist Germany adopted a "scorched earth" policy during their retreat from Denmark. There really is a very strong sense of brotherhood between the Scandinavian countries.--Peter Knutsen 01:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Towards the end of the war, Sweden (unsurprisingly) became more outspokenly pro-Allied, and troops (including Norwegian exiles) were trained and prepared to enter Norway if the Germans there wouldn't lay down their arms after the general German surrender. There can be no doubts that there was a substantial policy of accommodation towards Nazi Germany in 1941-42, the most spectacular one being the transfer of Division Engelbrecht from Norway to Finland through Swedish territory (see Cases_of_controversial_relations_with_the_Axis_of_World_War_II#Sweden). It could be argued that Sweden was preparing for the possibility of a German victory, and king Gustaf V would likely have welcomed it. Note that while Bengtsson was a conservative, he was also an anglophile (unlike most Swedish conservatives at the time).--Johan L 20:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I have to disagree totally with the Politics section. I know that there is a plenty of readers who want to interpret everything and see symbolism and politics everywhere but I don't think this is that kind of book.
1.Depicting a Jew during Second World War can be seen as an issue but it should be proved somehow. Is there anywhere an article on this issue which would prove this by telling us of possible cotroversy? Salaman being a Jew isn't anything special because it was widely known that in Cordoban Califate there was an important Jewish minority. And was there really discussion in Sweden 1941 of Jews? AFAIK, Swedes didn't want to or couldn't know what was happening in Germany. Unless otherwise proven, I think this note should be removed.
2.It is true that 'there had been considerable attempts to obscure it following the area's incorporation in Sweden' but you should prove that during 1940's issue of Skåne was still sensitive in Sweden. I guess in schools they theached still the truth that Skåne was part of Denmark? Unless otherwise proven, I think this note should be removed.
3.I can't see depicting of Rainald anyway as 'sympathetic and rather comic character'. He is a no-good person who considers himself cursed and it is clearly written that Orm is very satisfied when he gets rid of him. There is a change in his behaviour but it seems that Reinald only gives in to the sin which he has fought before.
Also Reinald as a pagan is not really well described. We see him only when he dies and we don't know much of his inner thoughts.
Therefore we can't say if writer doesn't accept Christians converting back to pagans. Especially connecting this opinion with comment on Nazi ideology is ridiculous.
I am removing lines connected with point 3 now but I am waiting for response on other points. (Olli J.)

Given Bengtsson's ambition, referred to in the main article: "I just wanted to write a story that people could enjoy to read, like the Three Musketeers or the Odyssey", the political speculations in this talk page seem to be completely irrelevant. Rgds / Mkch (talk) 17:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Characters

[edit] Toke

I disagree with the characterization of Toke. He is almost as intelligent as Orm is, when he is not rendered less clear-headed by drink (again, and again, and again) or by his desire to possess Harald Bluetooth's slave woman, Mirah. He is, if you care to notice, an accomplished poet, and he invents a method for the Viking raiders to storm the castle in Spain. Also notice that when Orm wants advice on how to proceed with the information provided by his brother, he summons Toke both because he trusts him (to an extreme degree) and because he values his counsel greatly (i.e. he acknowledges Toke as intelligent), and quite likely Orm summons Olof Butterfly (a more correct translation than the one given in "The Long Ships") more because of his knowledge of the East than because of his intelligence and wisdom, although obviously he trusts Olof (but, equally obviously, not as much as he trusts Toke).--Peter Knutsen 01:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Father Willibald

We also need to add him. He does become a friend of Orm, throughout the novel. But it seems to me that early in the novel, he is referred to as Brother Willibald, then later it is Father Willibald, even though he has been a full Priest right from his first appearance. I'd just use Father, I think, once I get around to writing his entry.--Peter Knutsen 02:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

An interesting observation, thank you Peter Knutsen for pointing it out. I have checked and verified it in my Swedish edition. The novel came originally in two parts, the first one published in 1942 and the second one in 1945. It is "brother Willibald" (and also "brother Matthias") in the 1942 part where Orm and Willibald meet occasionally. The last chapter tells how Bishop Poppo, then in London, approves Orm's request to get Willibald into his household. And in the second (1945) part Willibald has become some kind of house chaplain and spiritual guide, at the Gröning farm. Here "Father Willibald" seems an appropriate title. Rgds / Mkch 08:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jutes?

No, I don't think so. The Jutes were a tribe in the dark ages (mid 1st millenium), distinct from the Danes, and by the 10th century the people living in Jutland are Danes. I think "men from Jutland", linking to the article on Jutland, would be much more appropriate, so I'll change it to that. If you disagree, revert back and explain why.--Peter Knutsen 02:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree.--Johan L 20:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My favourite novel?

I have a list of perhaps 25-30 novels that I really, really like, but this one probably goes near the top of the list, and I have read it many times. I have the newer English translation ("The Long Ships"), and a version in the Swedish original, and I can get the Danish translation from the library any time. So if anyone needs me to look something up, or need me to help with language issues in regards to this article, just ask. I want to help make this article even better than it already is!!--Peter Knutsen 01:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

Is there any reason that the title in Afrikaans is especially mentioned? The best thing would to have a table of the title in all languages it has been translated to. If not, I suggest removing the Afrikaans title. Having just one foreign title makes it seem like something special, and I assume it's not. JdeJ (talk) 21:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am responsible for the present wording. The history is that User:Eisbar2 (proudly?) entered the note on Afrikaans on 23 April 2007. When I saw this note on 17 June 2007 I knew I could increase the number of translations. But I hesitated to delete the first proud note. But you are quite right, JdeJ, a list of translation languages should be appropriate. And Eisbar2 has had his/her publicity. I will enter a list of translation languages in the near future. Best Rgds / Mkch (talk) 22:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Today I added a list of 19 translation languages. Best Rgds / Mkch (talk) 15:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)