Talk:The Left Hand of Darkness

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Contents

[edit] Copyright violation?

Several paragraphs of this article are straight copies from the Scifi.com review that it also links to ( http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue116/classic.html ). I think the article (and the book) deserves better than this, although if a review is underway I'm sure it'll be addressed soon. I think more analysis of the concepts and content (and messages?) of the book would be welcome, though I'm terrible at such things myself. --StoneColdCrazy 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I've verified the copyright violation and removed the material, which was added all in one edit. Justin Johnson 04:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mary Sue Comment

I've removed the following addition:

Teresa Nielsen Hayden and Joanna Russ have noted that the novel can be considered a form of Mary Sue fiction.

I don't necessarily disagree with it (though I don't see how they two could say that). The problem is that it's an opaque criticism: The line as included says only that TNH and JR claim this, not why or how they claim this.

If you're going to add this line, please include either a brief exposition of the parallels between LHOD and Mary Sue-ism in fiction, or link to the arguments presented by TNH and JR. Without that, it's really just a meaningless slap at le Guin. JJ 22:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Having read the THN article linked in the Mary Sue article, I'm still not convinced the content should be added, since in THN's blog entry, the entirety of LHOD's mention is:
I, considering it, said “Which is not to say that The Left Hand of Darkness is a specimen of Star Trek slash fiction.” Joanna's jaw dropped, and we stared at each other in wild surmise. The patterns not only fitted; they explained some otherwise inexplicable plot twists in that novel." [1]
No argument or analysis on why this is so, just an offhand remark that two sci-fi authors once, in conversation, analysed it as such.
If that line is going to be added back, I would suggest making some effort to explain how the theory of Mary-sue-ism fits LHOD. Otherwise, it remains an opaque attack on the work. JJ 23:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

What is the meaning of "The Left Hand of Darkness"?

As I recall, it's light in this case. Hold on . . . yes, a little online investigation tells me I'm right. The novel deals a lot with themes of duality and opposition, and unity-in-duality. The narrator brings up the yin-yang in one conversation with someone from Winter, saying that the Gethenian embodies the symbol: "Light, dark. Fear, courage. Cold, warmth. Female, male. It is yourself, Therem. Both and one."--4.17.135.10 22:59, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dodgy logic on the reason Gethen was created

My recollection is that the book says that despite being called Gethen ('winter') the planet was in fact much warmer when it was initially settled by colonists. I am not certain that this was its original name. It would therefore not be correct to say that the genetic modification of the peoples was designed to help surviving the climate. That happened after the collapse of the galactic civilisation which had set up the experiment. I think it aludes directly to the Ekumen view being that this was a deliberate social experiment. The ice, coming later, did indeed affect how the people live - making major war campaigning impractical- but this was not an original part of the scheme. I havn't altered the text on this point, but i think it is wrong. Sandpiper 01:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems unlikely, sandpiper, that a star faring, colonial society would lack the means or the will to predict an imminent ice-age on one of their new worlds. -- Josh D.

My understanding of the novel was that the planet was in an ice age state when the Hain first colonised it with the Gethenians - that the genetic modifications included the genderless state of the people and their abilities to withstand the cold. Treeturtle81 (talk) 10:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

If we're talking about the fourth paragraph in Background, that is just what the book says. No one is sure what the ancient Hain people wanted or intended. --GwydionM (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
My recollection, now admittedly even older than when I made the previous post, is that while the planet was glaciated at the time it was colonised (as is the real earth currently), it was considerably warmer than at the time in the book. My recollection is that this is stated somewhere in the book. The book contains a number of speculations about the Hainish, but I don't recalll it saying' The Gethenians might have been made the way they were to maximize reproductive success on the harsh glaciated world of Gethen. I think the explanation theorised about in the book is that the experiment was set up on an out of the way and likely undesireable planet at some point before the collapse of the hainish civilisation. Whether it was anticipated that the planet might become colder, I would guess, would not have affected such a decision. Such changes are somewhat long term, and presumably the Hainish would have anticipated being able to evacuate people if needed. The point, as I understood it was that it was a harsh world, but not as desperatly so as portrayed in the book.

[edit] Tone of Article

I was once surprised to discover a female friend had been recommended to read the book as a feminist work. From my own POV it screamed 'gay' from the start. It is something of a love story between genly Ai and Therem Hath rem ir Estraven, who at least initially is presented also as a male character. It explores Ai's difficulties coming to terms with Estraven's dual sexuality and attractiveness to him. My friend failed to get into the book, perhaps because she only read the first chapter, which opens as a quite straightforward sf/costume drama setting. It is only later that the reader realises that the assumptions LeGuin sets up at the opening about the particular characters are, in fact, totally wrong. This theme goes right through the book, she sets up a situation and then shows how it plays differently on gethen. But in the end it shows a stunning support for traditional heroic nationalism, expressed in the individual Gethenian way, when the individual, Lord Estraven, sacrifices his life for the good of the people. All this complicated by the fact that the Karhidish king, who has taken a political position totally opposed to Estraven, is nonetheless also somewhat in love with him.

It is certainly not true that 'sexual conflicts play no part on gethenian society'. It is true that sexual differences have been eliminated, but the business of love and jealousy continues just the same and plays an important part in the story.

"Nations exist, and different places have different societies, but they blend at the edges". I'm not sure they do. The difference between karhide and Orgoreyn is rather sharp and is defined exactly at the border. Orgoreyn is presented as a rather more politically centralised country to Karhide, and in a sense is there to show exactly what estraven is opposing. Orgoreyn is something of a communist totalitarian state, contrasted with the feudal kingdom of karhide. This is a conflict of ideologies existing upon gethen, rather than something to do with the climate or genetic tampering. LeGuin is here presenting the similiarities between Gethenian and human societies, despite the physical differences. But into this she places a third example, a greatly unified sense of family and community. Estraven, as expert politican, seeks to mainipulate the opportunities presented by this visitor from space to gain advantage for Karhide.

To return to the title of this subsection, I'm not at all sure the tone of the article as I found it well represents the book. Sandpiper 01:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The sense in which "sexual conflicts play no part on gethenian society" is at the social level--the conflicts you identify (love triangles, jealousy) are at the individual level. Socially, though, there's no division of labour based on sex/gender, nor sexual stereotypes to be fulfilled/overcome, nor an insitutional power imbalance. The novel is feminist at least in the sense that it's an explicit exploration of a society in which the premise of radical feminism, that gender roles are the fundamental division upon which power is divided in our society, is not applicable.
Calling the work 'gay' seems to miss the point: 'heterosexuality' and 'homosexuality' are meaningless terms in Gethenian society. To the extent that Genly Ai is seen as perverse, it's because he remains fixed in one gender, and not because of the gender he 'chooses'. I'm not saying that queer identity doesn't play a part in the novel, but I wouldn't identify it as an overarching theme since there's no discussion at all in the book about the role played by a minority sexual orientation.
The reason I wrote that nations "blend at the edges" is the passages in which Ai is at the border, and, IIRC, he describes the people there as a comfortable mix of the two nations, with no particular allegiance to either one. The purpose of the centrally directed raiding that occurs is just to keep the borders sharp, to retain at least a little bit of 'those people over there are our enemies'. Yes, Orgoreyn is an ideologically separate place from Karhide, but that's due to geography and local power politics, where members of other nations are artificially demonized as a means of distinguishing 'them' from 'us'.
I'm not saying nationalism is absent, but le Guin's point seems to me to be that it's artificially emphasized for the purposes of local politics; the uglier side of nationalism that leads to war lacks a critical mass in the book just because of the nearly subconscious realization they all have from gender-switching that the differences just aren't that great. Justin Johnson 23:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Re sexual conflicts, I'm not disputing your longer explanation, but that explanation was not in the article, and without it, a reader is liable to misunderstand the wording to mean that conflicts around sex do not exist, and they plainly form a part of the story.
The work is gay in the same sense that it is feminist. The premise of the book is sexually equivalent individuals forming relationships, which is what gay relationships are about. All individuals are potential partners, not just one half of them. And in this universe, considerably less than half. Hence gethen really is a gay man's fantasy, and exploration of how this might pan out. Gay relationships do not suffer from this 'them and us' division within the relationship, which is precisely the situation Le Guin is talking about. A gay man's approach to women is not affected by her belonging to the class of potential sexual partners, while all men belong to a class of maybe yes, maybe no, but unknowable from appearances, rather like Gethen. Gay relationships also in practice tend to include more of the casual, open, kemmer house approach to sex. It is also true, though, as you say, that Ai does rather have the tables turned on him as a member of a sexual majority group who now becomes a minority of one. I think the story may have lost some of its punch to shock about sex, as society has changed since it was written. I don't know if Le Guin has commented on this unofficial parallel? And, while I wouldn't necessarily consider wiki as a definitive source, I note our biography of LeGuin describes Darkness' as an exploration of sexual identity.
Yes, I was thinking about what happened at the borders when I wrote my comment. I think the point made in the book is that the blending you describe is rather more the old way, when Karhide and Orgoreyn were presumably rather more similar. The new order in Orgoreyn is rather determined to stamp out any suggestion that any of its people might be tempted to follow the Karhiders example. Le Guin paints Orgoreyn as a far nastier place than Karhide. If anything, the book reads more like an exhaltation of 'the American way' as embodied by Estraven, over the communist central states of russia, and the traditional aristocratic rulers of Europe. Sandpiper 02:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
If you were the guy who set up the gethen experiment, and then were writing it up afterwards, I think you would have to say it had failed to decide the issue of whether the people were now not warlike. The climate on Gethen has become such as to make war impossible, rather invalidating any experimental results on this point. But perhaps what you could say, is that now technology has advanced to the point where it is possible to make war, orgoreyn is setting out on a path leading to exactly that. If Legun is saying anything, she is saying that all individuals have
You probably want to finish that sentence. In any case, here go my two cents as a LeGuin fan who feels horrified at hearing LHoD called "a gay man's fantasy" and Estraven "an embodiment of the American way": is all the above, however interesting, your own opinion, or is it part of an authoritative study, academic paper or independent professional review? Because if the former is true, this discussion cannot lead anywhere with regards to changing article content. With that in mind, I read LHoD as a good thought experiment on the dissolution of sexual identity. It would've worked the same whatever Ai's gender, and whatever s/he assumed Estraven's gender to be. I think hetero-, bi- and homosexual men and women can read it in their own valid ways and extract different insights, and this may be regardless of LeGuin's own intentions (which is what marks a novel as a great one). As for the "American Way", what you're probably referring to is a set of common traditional values ranging from casual patriotism and common sense to good old mom's apple pie, which are really not exclusive of the American Way, and that actually do not characterize today's American Way. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't know what happened to the sentence, probably something like...the potential for all human responses. The above is in answer to the opinions already included in the article, a fuller explanation of the amendments I made there, and indeed might contemplate adding in the future, and also specifically in response to views expressed here. What i have written here is self evidently correct: it is based upon the facts in the book. As with all such works, it all depends on how you look at it. It would amaze me if no one has made such comments elsewhere, though I have never thought to look since they were quite self evident. If any such debate occurred when the book came out, it would pre-date the internet.
I noticed that on her website LeGuin has a go at the writers of the filmed version of Earthsea, who presumed to comment that LeGuin would agree with how they had faithully included the important aspects of her work. I got the impression she felt they had not the slightest idea what she felt was important in the book (or at least didn't want it in their film). Her books are wonderful fairytales, but extremely insightful. Darkness was written in the middle of a sexual revolution (again according to wiki) 40 years ago, essentially by an experienced anthropologist and sociologist. Wonder what George Bush made of it? But, in fact, i think you are agreeing with me, that to state, in the article, that the book has only one, specific interpretation...is plainly wrong. Which was rather the point I was trying to make. (My style of argument may be a little like LeGuin's, now that I think about it.)
Oh, and I think Gethenians have a strong sexual identity, so you can't exactly call this work an exploration of the dissolution of sexual identity, merely a change. Sandpiper 01:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Challenging Assertion"

Did LeGuin really 'assert' that the lack of war on Gethen was a result of the inhabitant's modified biologies? The way I remember it, she left it very uncertain whether this was so or if the harsh environment was the actual cause. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.67.178.229 (talk) 06:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

That bugged me too, I see before and also reading the article just now. It says, . Le Guin's most challenging assertion is that such a world would have no history of war: lacking a deep sense of duality implied by strong gender divisions, Gethenians lack a necessary component of nationalism. LeGuin may ponder this point to bring it to the readers attention, but I don't think she asserts it. Orgoreyn seems to have quite enough nationalism to be set upon having a war, somewhat contradicting this statement by the facts of story. Sandpiper (talk) 00:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Edited version?"

sorry if this is inappropriate, but I once heard that in the first edition of the book, the chapter "On the Ice" is different - ie they do consummate their relationship - and LeGuin changed it for latter editions for whatever reasons. Which supposedly is why Marion Zimmer Bradley felt obligated to explore a relationship like that in one of her Darkover novels (I think it was The World Wreckers - she explained in the Author's notes there). Does anybody know more about this?

She deals with Genthenia sex in a story called Coming of Age in Karhide in the collection The Birthday of the World. She explains how she only gradually got the idea that the people of 'winter' did not have gender. And that Estraven was always conceived as a rather reserved character. Note that he has been celibate for years, apparently from regret at past loss.--GwydionM 16:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Politics manque

I think that this is a great novel but I want to point out a peculiar omission. Although it was written after the recent success of the voting-rights revolution, not one Gethenian character shows any conception of democracy (in the sense of choosing one's government and, throught them, one's country's policies); nor does Genly commit on this lack. Estraven is really an aristocrat who acts on a notion of noblesse oblige, like Boildieu in the movie GRAND ILLUSION. Only a few years later the Supreme Court destroyed the right to vote on a crucial issue (abortion); three decades later they annointed a president. Is this prescience? CharlesTheBold 01:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there are democratic elections in any of Le Guin's novels. Remember, she is an anarchist and would therefore prefer minimal governments. Elections tend to be associated with strong governments, though there are exceptions, e.g. Switzerland. --GwydionM 13:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pronouns

It's a bit odd to refer to Estraven in the masculine pronoun, since Estraven is neither male nor female (indeed, the only time Estraven is gendered in the book, it is as female). While Le Guin did use the male pronoun in the novel as the generic male, she later said that she would have done it differently if writing it later, and published alternate versions of the first portion of the book. Regardless of what Le Guin did "in universe", in the real world it's simply not grammatically correct to refer to Estraven or Gethenians as "he". ... And rather than start a war on the matter, I think it's easiest to take one of Le Guin's tacks in writing later fiction set on Gethen: Simply write such that use of the pronoun is not even necessary.

So when I was rewriting to improve the flow and fix noun/pronoun confusion (*), I also rewrote to avoid use of unnecessary pronouns.

(*) The noun/pronoun confusion arose between a lot of the text described relationship and interaction between Genly and Estraven, and when both were referred to as "he" or "him" it was often difficult to parse the sentence. In fact this led to some back-and-forth edits where people in good faith were trying to clarify a problem that was better addressed simply by eliminating the pronouns and using proper names.

So, two birds killed with one stone.

--lquilter 05:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sex and gender

The distinctive thing is that the planet's people can function as either male or females, may be both fathers and mothers. Actual sex doesn't seem to be distinctive, so I reversed the last change. --GwydionM 17:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, this is not entirely true. There is a tendency, for example, for the ruler of Karhide to always be male when in Kemmer. It is noted in the book that his having a child of his body (something like that) is exceptional. I don't recall if we are told who the father is? Sandpiper (talk) 01:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Film version

An earlier version of this page said that a film version was in progress; however some searching seems to show that while plans for a film were announced publicly in late 2004 nothing has been publicly announced since. Additionally, the website of the company that was supposed to be producing it (www.phobosweb.com) no longer works, and there is no reference to a film version anywhere on IMDB. There is also no reference at all to a TLHOD film on Le Guin's website that I can find (http://www.ursulakleguin.com). I think it is safe to say that development of the film version has stalled, and have updated the page to reflect this. Walandablap (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

After further research it appears that the "2008" date on the film comes from confusion with another film, which is *not* based on the Le Guin book, but which is also called TLHOD. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ursula_K._Le_Guin&diff=cur&oldid=143304864

Walandablap (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)