Talk:The Kingdom of the Lombards

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Contents 1 Proposed move 1.1 (Medieval) -> (medieval)... Done 2 Innacurate [sic] 3 Kingdom of Lombardy 4 Requested move 4.1 Survey 4.2 Discussion

[edit] Proposed move

[edit] Innacurate [sic]

This page is ridiculously inaccurate. First, it contradicts itself regarding the beginning of this state, giving both 839 and 855 as start dates. But neither date works. The kingdom was founded in 568 by the Lombards when the began the conquest of Italy. The state was conquered by the Franks in 774, but otherwise it continued to exist for centuries and then nominally until the end of the HRE in 1806. The statement about an "independent state" is funny: it was always independent of everything but the imperial authority after the year 800, just like every other kingdom in Western Europe at the time. Italy was ruled as a distinct realm from 568 until the High Middle Ages, when the rise of the city-states broke the power of the feudal class and the kingdom ceased to exist as a real political unit, though the powers of the rex Italiae continued to be exercised and coronation were still held for the emperors-elect. In short, I don't know what this page is referring to. It covers a kingdom which is not really distinct from the Lombard one as if it were. Srnec 21:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you are exaggerating the extent of inaccuracy, although I agree that there is some confusion regarding the dates of Louis' ascendency. You also seem to be completely ignoring Carolinian dominance of the northern Lombards after Charlemagne's conquest of Northern Italy. Yes, "it continued to exist for centuries" after Frankish conquest, as a province of Charlemagne's empire, and later as part of the HRE. After the Carolinian conquest it was no longer a Lombard kingdom, it became a Frankish one. How many articles are there in Wikipedia titled "Kingdom of Italy"? Four? Six? You are confusing the region of Italy with the succession of governments that ruled there. I have no idea what you mean by "it was always independent of everything but the imperial authority after the year 800, just like every other kingdom in Western Europe at the time"; what exactly is your argument? I thought you were saying that it was already independent before the dates given, yet with this statement you are saying that it wasn't. The west of what is now France and the Iberian Peninsula were not within the suzerainty of the HRE at the time, so your statement equally doesn't apply to those regions. The Italy referenced in this article is not the same territory as the modern state of Italy, so what "distinct realm" are you referring to? The extent of the Lombard Kingdom of Italy was not the same as the Carolinian Kingdom, or that of the Ostrogothic Kingdom that pre-existed the Lombards, or to the petty Lombard kingdoms in the south of the peninsula that co-existed with the subject of this article. The extent of the kingdom even changes within the course of events depicted in this article, so not even the material in contention is dealing with a "distinct realm".

This article is indeed inaccurate. It depicts an entity that in low middle ages and renaissance did never exist. I suggest to rewrite it from scratch, making clearer that if such entity ever existed it was only an official title helded by holy roman emperors, while actually italy experienced in this time mediaval comuni and dinastie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.29.220.191 (talk) 17:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The Italy we are concerned with here was a province of Lothar's empire; due to the tradition of partible inheritance the empire was subdivided after his death, with Italy going to Louis who was already installed there. Louis left no heirs, and as was the tendency in the early HRE the stronger of the other two gained control and used it as leverage to dominate most of Lothar's former dominion (a gross oversimplification, but I trust you get the point). On Lothar's death, the independent medieval Kingdom of Italy began, later to be reincorporated into the HRE but with new recognition as a separate principality instead of just an extension of the Emperor's demesne, as it would continue to be regarded until the reorganization of the Italian Peninsula as the modern Kingdom of Italy.

I think the date confusion is due to lack of clarity. Louis was already King of Italy (then a vassal state) in 839 before the death of Lothar (he wasn't crowned until 844, so take your pick on the date), but only after Lothar's death in 855 did the Kingdom of Italy (under Louis) become an autonomous entity, to be eventually reabsorbed by the HRE after Louis' death and years of contention for the crown with no recognizable legitimate successors.

This could use a rewrite. I think the dispute banner needs to be replaced with one demanding clarification. 12.22.250.4 23:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

There was a kingdom of Italy from 476. Its existence was interrupted more than once before the Lombards succeeded in establishing a lasting kingdom in 568. That kingdom lasted until 1806 without interruption. That is why this article is confused. The Franks conquered the Lombards in 774, but the regnum Italicum continued to exist. Only with the innovations of Carolingian imperium does the Italian kingdom come to be seen as a state within a state, namely, the Empire. It remained a state within the Empire until 1806, though, like all countries, its geography was altered more than once during that long period. Just because Italy had closer ties to the countries beyond the Alps when its ruler ruled transalpine lands, it does not follow that Italy only "became" and "independent ... Kingdom" after Lothair's death. It was a separate kingdom and independent from the other regna of the Empire from 774 on. The Lombard, Frankish, and post-Frankish Italies are the same political entity. Srnec 04:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom of Lombardy

Is what this article, or atleast the Lombard info should be called. These are not "Kings of Italy", they're "Kings of the Lombards". Take for example Alboin, Britannica has him located at "Alboin (king of Lombardy)"[1]. This well researched map on the Historical states of Italy calls it the "Kingdom of Lombardy".[2] In the letters from Popes they were addressed as "Kings of Lombardy", as this source attests.[3] - Gennarous (talk) 02:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The Kingdom of the Lombards → Regnum Italiae — This page is about the medieval entity known as the "Kingdom of Italy". Since "Kingdom of Italy (medieval)" is clumsy, "Regnum Italicum" is uncommon and rejected (see previous request), and the Italian and Spanish Wikis both use a Latin form in their titles, I propose moving the article to Regnum Italiae. User:Gennarous has been moving this page to inappropriate titles several times now and redirecting the other titles so that only an admin can revert him, thus necessitating this stupid requested move. If you don't know anything about the scholarly literature, please note that Chris Wickham uses "Kingdom of Italy" to refer to the Lombard kingdom in his Early Medieval Italy (the authoritative English general study of the period) and the Britannica reads "the regnum Langobardorum (“kingdom of the Lombards”) of the Lombard period was called the regnum Italiae (“kingdom of Italy”) from the 9th century onward". —Srnec (talk) 03:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

This move requested was opened in order to prevent a full out edit war between myself and User:Gennarous, who moved the page from Kingdom of Italy (medieval) to Kingdom of Lombardy, an innapropriate title because it is uncommonly used and it does not correspond to the scope of the article, and after I reverted him twice to The Kingdom of the Lombards. He redirected both the former article titles, including Regnum Italiae, which was my attempt at compromise, so that only an adminstrator could move them back. This necessitated a move request. I simply chose the previous title, but the original title is fine with me. The current title is wrong in form (per MoS) and in fact (the article is not about the Kingdom of the Lombards only). When an admin finally closes this, s/he should move the article to "Kingdom of Italy (medieval)" or to the requested domain in the unlikely event that the move request passes. Keeping the article here is not acceptable and does not have consensus. Srnec (talk) 22:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose move it back to the previously decided title, Kingdom of Italy (medieval). I find no problem with the arguments from 2006. 70.55.85.39 (talk) 07:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
• Revert to Kingdom of Italy (medieval). Kingdom of the Lombards is too narrow a title. And while I certainly appreciate a good Latin name, I think the English title works well in this instance. Kafka Liz (talk) 09:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. (and Kafka is correct; this article has much wider scope than the Kingdom of the Lombards; Kingdom of Italy (medieval) is about right). There are two problems with the proposal: it's not English, and it's ambiguous (it would be valid in discussing Vergil and the Saturnian Age (it's from Aeneid 4.106 or 275), the Ostrogoths, or the 1860-1946 Kingdom of Italy). Either would be fatal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course Kafka is correct, that was my rationale for the move. I don't care where this gets moved to, though I don't see a big problem with the Latin (why does the Italian Wiki use it?). We Ostrogothic Kingdom, Kingdom of the Lombards, and the later Italian kingdoms (Napoleonic, Risorgimento), but we don't have a name for the Lombardo-Frankish entity that lasted from the eighth century to the end of the Middle Ages and probably in theory until the Peace of Westphalia. "Kingdom of Italy (medieval)" is less ambiguous than "Regnum Italiae" (though in practice probably not). I just think it is clumsy and weird. Srnec (talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't set Italian Wiki policy; but Latin will be trivially intelligible to Italians where it is not to anglophones. We should avoid it, unless English has adopted the phrase. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

1. this is not the Italian language wikipedia
2. English is not a romance language
3. Latin is not taught as a subject in English-language highschools in the English-speaking world anymore, for the most part
4. Latin is a dead language
5. This is the English Wikipedia
6. Roma is spelt Rome, Torino is spelt Turin, etc. in English, since this is neither the Latin nor the Italian Wikipedia.

74.15.104.182 (talk) 05:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose I am not against using a Latin term, as long as an Emglish term does not exist or is too obscure. This is hardly the case here. Both "Kingdom of Italy" and "Kingdom of the Lombards" seem more widely used. Dimadick (talk) 10:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• Revert to Kingdom of Italy (medieval). The article in question refers not just to the kingdom of the Lombards, but also to the Kingdom of Italy which existed for another thousand years AFTER the Lombards were gone. Kingdom of Italy (medieval) works fine, and can apply to both kingdoms, while Lombard only refers to one.Rcduggan (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
• Revert. Although I appreciate Srnec's work and creativity, and although I like Regnum Italiae, I have to agree that reverting to Kingdom of Italy (medieval) is the best name for this article in terms of balancing the various WP naming conventions (neutrality, common name, use English, unambiguous, etc.). Wilhelm meis (talk) 03:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

It may be worth dividing this article into the Lombard kingdom and Kingdom of Italy (medieval). The Carolingian kingdom had a separate, if usually nominal, existence from the Lombard state (if that's the right word). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

My problem with that is that the distinction is arbitrary. Even in the late Middle Ages the crown the emperors used as kings of Italy was the Iron Crown and Charlemagne adopted, initially, the Lombard title. We do need a separate article for the Lombard kingdom, but simply dividing it off of this article seems unwise. Better to keep a short section with a main article hatnote. Srnec (talk) 23:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Not importantly arbitrary. The Lombard crown was united with the Frankish/Imperial crown during the reigns of Charlemagne and Louis, the Italian crown was split off afterwards. The divide between them must be in that period. But writing a separate article and making this section into a summary will get us much the same place. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Pepin? Bernard? Kings of the Lombards or of Italy? Srnec (talk) 23:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I may have oversimplified. But did they wear the Iron Crown? Did they govern by Lombard law? If not, why not call them Kings of Italy, as we do? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm just saying that any dividing line between Lombard/medieval is arbitrary and therefore I am opposed to separating them completely, but subarticles are fine. Srnec (talk) 03:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)