Talk:The Italian Job

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Just seen the "remake" and thankfully, it's not as bad as I'd expected. More a homage to the original than a remake. The action is quite involving and there are some cool effects. The fine line between plausibility and over the topness is trod well. I still think the original is a far better film though. GRAHAMUK 07:16, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"The three Minis then race through the stylish shopping arcades of the Via Roma, up the sail-like roof**, around the rooftop test track ..."

**the roof of an aircraft museum, if I understood the DVD, but what's its name? --wwoods 08:19, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've reinstated the original text which gives the name - Palazzo Vela. I'm pretty sure it's not an aircraft museum but an art museum - but I could be wrong, it's the one place i didn't get around to visiting on my trip to Turin. Incidentally I have no idea why the edit was made - it greatly reduced the sense of the section and took away a useful fact or two - I can only assume it was a blunder rather than a deliberate edit. Graham 02:49, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Charges of racism, sexism etc.. 2 palazzo a vela 3 Peaches vs. Peach 4 2003 'remake' 5 Scene question 6 Poster 7 Page moved without discussion, proposed move back 7.1 Requested move

[edit] Charges of racism, sexism etc..

The film has been criticised for being nationalistic in tone, patriotic to the point of racism. There are also one or two racist jokes in the script, mainly at the expense of the black coach driver Big William, and the Italians in general.

I don't recall any racist jokes at the expense of "Big William", unless it's perhaps him saying he doesn't like the colour he's painting the bus (RW&B). Can anyone enlighten me before I remove this? Mintguy (T)

Anyone at all recall the racist jokes!? Mintguy (T) 01:17, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think the "joke" about the colour of the bus is racist. The implication is that it's the sort of thing that gets said to BW in other contexts... it's not that offensive to me but then again I'm not black. Such throwaway racism was typical of films of the period. Otherwise though there is much low-level racism directed at the Italians - "bloody foreigners!" said only because the helpful person spoke in his own language for example, and the general way they are portrayed as bumbling idiots. Not to mention the stereotype fat Italian woman (both racist AND sexist!). These are what I can recall, but I also recall that other film critics have noted this too (can't find a source to cite though - ooer) so the statement that "the film has been criticised... etc" is true as far as I know. Graham 02:49, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'd say the bus thing is an anti-racist joke if anything. It is not true to say that they portray all Italians as stupid. The portrayal of the mafia is another stereotype but they are sinister rather than stupid. The sexism, e.g. the "Welcome Home Party" for Charlie is sexist but par for the period. I have to disagree with you about the fat Italian woman. There is only 1 fat Italian woman in the film whilst there are 3 fat British woman (remember Annette, and the two lovelies is the sports-car?), the joke is not about them being fat but rather about Professor Peach's fetish. In general the fun comes from the oddities of the British characters, the "Bloody foreigners" joke is poking fun at the character's inability to understand Italian and expecting them to speak English, rather than suggesting that there is something wrong with Italians. The classic scene of the Camp Freddy's board meeting ("Fulham, bit dodgy at the moment"), the scene with John le Mesurier as the prison governor, Bridger's obsession with the Queen, the "chinless wonder's" driving the minis, are all examples of the joke being centered on British eccentricities. Mintguy (T) 11:45, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well-argued. To some extent I'm just playing devil's advocate, as I love the film and don't find it offensive myself... in many ways its datedness is part of its charm. I have read that it has been criticised on this basis though - perhaps it's just a case of political correctness gone too far? I feel it deserves some sort of mention though, perhaps in another form of words. Graham 23:43, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's definitely not racist, certainly not in a "we're better than they are" sense, and it makes far more use of British stereotypes than Italian stereotypes. As Mintguy correctly observes, the "bloody foreigners" scene is an attack on the intolerant and ignorant Brits who have such attitudes, and says nothing at all about Italians. It makes a valid point too which still rings true today, I've met many British tourists abroad who expect everyone in the world to speak English and get angry when people don't. As for "Big William", he's barely featured and (except perhaps obliquely in the name) I can't find any racist references to him in the film at all. He's mostly treated as just another one of "our lads", so you could even argue it's a model of integration at a time when the first large numbers of Black Britons were appearing in London. Incidentally, the enthusiastic one-hour documentary that comes on the Italian Job DVD was written and narrated by a British Asian, so this film clearly appeals more to a general sense of British character than any particular ethnic group.

I removed this bit about racist jokes: "There are also one or two racist and xenophobic jokes in the script, mainly at the expense of the black coach driver Big William, and the Italians in general." Mainly because I think Mintguy is right in his analysis.

There is a world of difference between a movie that is racist - and a movie that portrays racist people. If anything, this movie might be the latter - it's certainly not the former. However, we are getting ahead of ourselves here. White British people and white Italian people are of the same race (Caucasoid) - when the Brits insult the Italians, they are not being racist they are being nationalistic - which is a very different (and IMHO much smaller) sin. Being nationalistic was certainly 100% acceptable when this movie was made - and is probably still acceptable now. The war against the Italians and the Germans had only been over for 24 years - and almost all of the British people portrayed in the movie would have lived through that war and had good reason to dislike the Italians. We had the government sponsored "I'm Backing Britain" campaign for example - stoking the nationalistic fervor. So making fun of the Italians cannot remotely be considered "racist" by any reasonable definition - and it was certainly not unacceptable by 1960's standards. The only actor of a different race in the entire movie is Big William - that decision to have just one black actor merely reflects the relatively small number of non-caucasian people who lived in Britain and Italy in the 1960's. Of the 10 or so people on the team - 1 is black - that's 10% which is more than statistically representative of the black population of Britain at the time...this was not set in America! I don't see any place where William is mistreated or insulted because of his race - but even if he were, that would merely be an accurate reflection of how real people would have behaved at the time. If any residual problem remains, it's sure as hell not sufficiently severe to warrant a derogatory mention in the article. SteveBaker 14:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] palazzo a vela

actually, the 'palazzo a vela' (= the sail shaped palazzo/building), was for quite a long time just an empty expositive place used to host a number of different temporary exhibitions. In the '80s it hosted indoor athletic events. Presently it's under reconstruction in view of the winter Olimpics in 2006 (possibly, that's why it's not included in the tour). I am afraid the reconstruction is not too respectful of the original structure (just my impressions passing by one month ago).

It was literally gutted for the Winter Olympics, and filled with a random pile of smaller, cubic buildings with a quite ephemereal air to them, but the distinctively shaped roof was preserved

[edit] Peaches vs. Peach

Did anyone notice one of the missions in the first Italian Job video game (the one based on the 1969 movie) was "Peaches for Peaches?" Isn't the character in the movie Professor Peach? Then shouldn't it be "Peaches for Peach". "I like 'em big. BIG!" --Hyad 07:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I noticed it too. But why isn't there an article about that game?

[edit] 2003 'remake'

Just wondering why there is no separate page for the 2003 'remake'. Deliberate? I'd submit that it should have a separate page (mainly because it's not a remake, it's a crime caper film that just happens to have Mini Cooeprs and the same name!) --Suitov 15:57, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

It's much more like a sequel; if you wanted to separate the two articles, you could.

Atlant 11:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I think the remake is the worst movie I have ever seen. I am sure many people agree that it is a waste of time to watch. That's why it doesn't have its own page. Mosquitopsu 00:03, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Er - it does have it's own page The Italian Job (2003 film) - and Wiki isn't about opinions - it's about FACTS. SteveBaker 21:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Opinions obviously vary. And if it were the worst movie [anyone] had ever seen, that would be notable, adding to the push for it having its own page. ;-)

Atlant 11:31, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Scene question

I have seen this film a while ago, and do not have direct access to it now, but just have to know this, because I am not sure: is there a scene in it, where explosive charges are placed on the underside of a street, and a van, placed directly at this spot, falls down to the sewers through the hole caused by the explosions? I know, stupid question, 's just... ;) --Ouro 14:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That's the remake, The Italian Job (2003 film). And it's a subway, not a sewer. —wwoods 16:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep - that's in the remake. They drill a bunch of holes into the ceiling of the subway line and pack them full of explosives - when the armored truck containing the gold stops right above them, they set off the charges and the truck falls about 50 feet straight down to where the gang are waiting to rob it. We're told that the safe contains a thin sheet of glass that prevents you from drilling out the lock...how the heck that survives a fall from 50 feet is anyone's guess! SteveBaker 20:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Should have posted it at the RefDesk tho :) --Ouro 12:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poster

Why the replacement? The new poster does not reflect the film at all, since no guns were shown used by Charlie's crew... My impulse would be to revert as I can't see that this poster is authentic. laddiebuck 04:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the US poster has nothing whatever to do with the movie - it does however serve to explain why the movie didn't do so well in US markets! More to the point, the UK poster is the one chosen for the DVD sleeve design in both UK and US markets. It might be interesting (and a fair compromise) to put the US poster in the "Sequels and remakes" section further down the article. Notice where we are talking about disappointing US reception:

 "the film was not a success in America. Michael Caine blamed its failure
  there on an unattractive and misleading advertising campaign."

...well, that poster surely shows a misleading advertising campaign - the gun makes it look like it's a movie about Chicago gangsters during prohibition - not a hip 1960's movie. The way the guy is dressed makes him look like a Mafia guy (and the heroes of the movie are going AGAINST the Mafia) - as for the map on the girl's back...unless you know the movie is about navigating through a city, it could be anything! SteveBaker 11:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I fail to see where on the poster it states that it is the US poster. Plus the one that was originally on the page actually says on its upload page that it is a DVD cover. I would think that any movie poster is more applicable than a DVD cover, if that is what it is as the source doesn't verify this. I would be more than agreeable to put the original British poster up (can't have the yanks taking over the page) but if you look at the 'DVD ' poster it looks nothing like British posters of the 60's. It isn't a quad for a start. Apologies for not putting this before changing the poster. I hadn't noticed this discussion. Pally01, 12:58, 40 August 2006 (UTC)

The US poster is certainly not what was used in the UK - indeed the US poster is the precise reason that Micheal Caine believes the movie failed in the USA - which in turn explains why there was no sequel. I believe that the image that you keep reverting is the DVD cover - but it is essentially the same as one of the UK posters that was used at the time. The other poster shows the three Mini's parked together facing towards the camera. I really don't think it's appropriate to show the poster that played such a large part in causing the movie to fail at the top of the article - so I'm going to RE-revert. SteveBaker 20:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There is yet a third UK poster shown here:

 http://www.allposters.com/-sp/The-Italian-Job-Posters_i122673_.htm

SteveBaker 20:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Then maybe the best thing would be to use the re-release poster that is a quad until an original British quad poster can be found. (Pally01 20:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Page moved without discussion, proposed move back

[edit] Requested move